Toxic Elite vs n00bs... going forward, how should they relate to each other?

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  • luckyvulpi
    luckyvulpi Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    All out war
    Moving forward I think some casual / noob opinions should be given slightly more consideration than elites because of how under represented they are.  From my experience casual players would either happily and silently play a game they love or silently stop playing a game they hate.  Unless something really bad happens that makes them angry enough to voice their opinion, then they probably won't say anything.

    So if something messed up THAT much that a casual player took the effort to join the forum and voice their thoughts, then there should be some merit behind what they say.  Especially if it's a lot of casual players who agree on the same thing.  The recent cool down 4 hour vs 8 hour probably isn't a good example of casual players speaking up, but I remember back when Barel was the infinite cycler that broke the game.  Alot of players complained while some of the high elite didn't want Barel to be nerfed.  When a decision is made that is so bad that a lot of casual players join the forum to complain, I think their voice should mean more than others.




    Also I joined because i wanted to rant about how I opened my first hour of devastation 300 Crystal thing since I only had 1 rare from single packs and I wanted to get lucky and the one garentee rare I got happened to be the exact same rare I already had.  Spent my last 180 crystals since I was so mad on the 2nd pack thing and got nothing. That was probably the most mad I've been at a pack opening and it feels good to rant.
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    All out war

    I vote for All Out War.  Not against each other, but against D3's ineptitude at making this goldmine of a game the golden goose it deserves to be.

    And to be clear, I am not pointing any fingers at Oktagon and do hope they can bring many positive enhancements to the game.

    Most newer players that end up quitting comment about how slow progression is in this game.  I remember it took me 2 months to get my first rare and about 3 before I got my first mythic.  The drop rates are structured to be abysmally low so that they can poach those few players who have the addictive tendencies and financial means to drop thousands of dollars on the game.  This is a classic technique in FTP games although most evidence shows that it works well in the short term and then fails utterly in the long term.

    To compound their greedy business model they price exclusive cards at an absurd $40 per card.  Are we buying a paper Jace the Mind Sculpter before he was banned?  No!  We are buying some card that has no resale value and likely minimal impact on success.  I can afford to buy them and refuse to.  Most people probably simply can't afford to play the game as anything other to F2P.  I think this is another awful business design that leads to lost revenue.

    I guarantee booster crafting will be exactly as it sounds.  Take your 10,000 dupes spin them into new booster which will spit out 1000 more dupes.  Spin the wheel 2 more times and you will taste that familiar flavor of ashes in your mouth.

    It is ironic that some of the biggest supporters of the newbie/casual player experience are some the forums largest opponent to having the cards actually be collectible for players with enough time or money.  I doubt many people were willing to keep plowing through 3 months of story mode and quick battle before finally landing their first mythic (Dragonmaster Outcast).  I know my brother quit after a few weeks because the progression was so slow and he felt there were better games/uses of his time.

    TLDR/Conclusion:  I will continue to war against D3 until they stop trying to harpoon an occasional whale and adopt a business model that makes the game fun and accessible to players of all economic status. 

    #Not.Another.Dime.


  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Not sure how things changed between the time I started and you did, but back in my day, I would open my first big box in the first week, and complete story mode within the next two... Which yielded another box.

    Got 2 mythics out of that, which is about the expected result. 

    Nowadays you can move on to events to get more rares and the occasional mythic from all the free packs that come along with that. Oh, and the free cards that are also now available from basic boosters. 

    2 months for a rare and 3 for a mythic? Did you just skip story mode and decide to bang your head on pvp with starter decks?

  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    luckyvulpi said:

    Moving forward I think some casual / noob opinions should be given slightly more consideration than elites because of how under represented they are.  

    So if something messed up THAT much that a casual player took the effort to join the forum and voice their thoughts, then there should be some merit behind what they say.  Especially if it's a lot of casual players who agree on the same thing.  The recent cool down 4 hour vs 8 hour probably isn't a good example of casual players speaking up, but I remember back when Barel was the infinite cycler that broke the game.  Alot of players complained while some of the high elite didn't want Barel to be nerfed.  When a decision is made that is so bad that a lot of casual players join the forum to complain, I think their voice should mean more than others.


    "Elite v. casual" is a myth that's propagated by people looking to vilify others.  The cry to nerf Baral was started by veteran players before he was in the game. Some casuals were for nerfing, some were against; some "elite" were for, some were against.  It was certainly not a one-sided issue. The refresh timers skewed similarly. 

    Certainly everyone's opinions should be listened to. I also agree that when something happens that motivates people to finally post, then that's a sign that it's a major issue that needs to be examined. 

    However, keep in mind that participation does have merit on its own. Someone choosing to participate in a minimal number of discussions on a forum is probably not going to have their opinion given quite as much weight.  Consideration? Definitely. They deserve to be listened to.

    However, wanting them to get more consideration than others without putting in continual effort to be part of the community seems like wanting the milk without paying for the cow. 


  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    I absolutely believe the needs of new and casual players need to be taken seriously. I am however very skeptical of long time players who claim to know what most of these players want.
  • luckyvulpi
    luckyvulpi Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    All out war
    @madwren

    I agree with you for the most part. The Elite vs casual thing is silly but it was brought up in the thread topic itself. Most of the issues havn't really drawn a clear divide between casual players and hardcore players and I only brought up Baral because it was the only example I could think of that came close. Alot of the bad major changes that caused people to join the forum to complain where issues that affected both sides like nerfing the card packs or deciding that half of someone's card collection would be useless because of reasons.


    What I meant when I said casual players should have more consideration than others is that people should consider the other casual players who thought the same thing but didn't put in the effort to join the forum and instead just quit.  I'm not trying to say that someone's opinion means more or invalidates another, I meant that if something is so bad people join just to complain then it should be a signal that something is really messed up and needs change.


    Personally I would like to see the two sides come together and be a community with no horrible bad changes that cause people to join the forum and complain.  We will see in the holidays hopefully.
  • Matthew
    Matthew Posts: 605 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    Gilesclone said:
    I absolutely believe the needs of new and casual players need to be taken seriously. I am however very skeptical of long time players who claim to know what most of these players want.

    Perhaps you could explain the roots of your skepticism. But first, please understand, this is an attempt to further the conversation; not an attack on you or your statements. In the mean time, I'd like to offer a defense of these long-time players you seem to doubt.

    The simple fact that people have been with this game for so long should show that they care about it. It would be tough to argue against that. Furthermore, if you look at the forum stats of players like babar3355, OhBoy, Madwren, bken1234, octal9, majincob, and many others, you can see that they have cared enough to author several thousand posts between them. That is a level of dedication that clearly shows just how much they care about the game itself. These players are also the ones who created and developed the largest section of the community of players involved in the game.

    For this and other reasons, the opinions of these top-tier players regarding new players should not be dismissed out of hand. They have been with the game long enough to witness firsthand all of the downward, negative trends it has experienced. They have also witnessed the massive attrition rates of players that are directly attributable to how it has been mismanaged. These players, who have stuck around through all the nonsense that has been thrown at this community as a whole, would not still be here if they didn't care. They are invested, at least emotionally, and in many cases financially as well.

    Regardless of their motives for caring about the game, one thing can be assumed with a fair degree of confidence: that they would like the game to continue to exist. A game that is hemorrhaging players while also failing to attract new ones has a pretty poor prognosis for continuing to exist. So it is in the best interest of everyone, including these top players who have been here forever, to lobby the developers to make the game more accessible and more friendly to every player, and not just themselves.

    If you need actual evidence instead of a logical progression of explanation, there are plenty of posts in these very forums from newer players who have expressed just how grateful they are to these long-time players for the help and insight they have provided them. I know I wrote one myself early this year, when I finally discovered the community. The most recent one I can think of is here.

    Finally, having been with the game for so long, and having helped so many new players, and seen how the game has (d)evolved, they have a pretty good idea of what is good and what is bad about the game. Their breadth of experience has granted them plenty of insight into why people have quit. They have seen just how steep the learning and power curves are, and have witnessed it get steeper. So it's pretty clear to me that they should know what is good and what is bad for new players. Of course, you'd be within your rights to claim that I can't make that observation objectively, because I hang out with these guys on a daily basis. I couldn't very well dispute that. But what I can do is hope that my argument doesn't fall on deaf ears.

    I look forward to your response! Cheers.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    It should also be pointed out that many of us are involved in communities wherein we discuss (or have discussed) the game with hundreds of players on a regular basis.  That doesn't mean we know everything, but it does mean that we're very informed about varying perceptions of the game, whether on Discord, Slack, or the forums.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    luckyvulpi said:
    @madwren

    What I meant when I said casual players should have more consideration than others is that people should consider the other casual players who thought the same thing but didn't put in the effort to join the forum and instead just quit.  I'm not trying to say that someone's opinion means more or invalidates another, I meant that if something is so bad people join just to complain then it should be a signal that something is really messed up and needs change.



    Thanks for clarifying what you mean, I appreciate it. We're on the same page here.
  • luckyvulpi
    luckyvulpi Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    All out war
    I remember back when mythics were one of the top prizes for coalition events someone in the top coalition made a thread complaining about how they got 'too many mythics' and they would have to force themselves to lose in order to not get the top mythic prize because they had every mythic from the new set.


    Not only was that thread a slap in the face for everyone not in the top coalition, the mythics that person got were some of the best in the entire game and he was showing it off to everyone else.  It was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen and I think of that thread everytime 'elite' is mentioned in mtgpq.

    I would be skeptical too of elite players thinking they know the best for everyone when an elite player complained about having too many mythics which resulted in the reduction of coalition prizes and the stingyness Hibernum has about being worried they might give out too much stuff.


    This is the thread.  To this day I still remember it and it keeps me being skeptical whenever someone says one of the elite players were nice and helpful because I cannot image a nice top elite.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/53876/for-the-next-event-am-i-supposed-to-lose-on-purpose/p1
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    Gilesclone said:
    I absolutely believe the needs of new and casual players need to be taken seriously. I am however very skeptical of long time players who claim to know what most of these players want.

    Personally I have direct access to multiple perspectives in my own house.
    I've been playing a fair while on and off but my wife only started a few months ago and has accelerated upwards extremely quickly. The problems she has had in the process and the frustrations have helped shake cobwebs off some of my assumptions.

    I also have 2 kids who enjoy playing but D3Go have actually _introduced_ new barriers to their enjoyment. They can't even vaguely do events and the 1 card per 2 hours changed it so it isn't actually enjoyable enough for them to even login because the game is so very very slow to load. They love collecting things and are a perfect age to get addicted but the design of the things _around_ the actual game part totally prevent them from enjoying it.
    Since it takes so long to load, since it takes noticable time to switch between events and vault (What other game has a ridiculous "relogin" _internally_ when you are effectively changing tabs?). With their limited attention span and limited game time they'd rather spend it on something they can actually _play_, and that's _all_ infrastructure and design problems, nothing about gameplay.

    I also have a large number of RL friends that would love this game, but it's never been reliable enough for me to recommend in the first place.

    I have beginners I _want_ to shepherd through the game and I just can't because the company does not give any support at all, it doesn't seem to be even asking the right questions about the right areas to fix.
    Many of the barriers other people speak about aren't the ones that I see, there are barriers _before_ all the ones people are focussing on.


  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    As neutrally as a neutral option in a forum poll
    Heh. Ah Yunnnnn. He hasn't even played the game in months, and was trolling most of the most of his posts, so I don't think he's a shining example of the community at large. But if this attitude is what is considered "toxic elite" it is thankfully pretty rare. 
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    @Kinesia you have the kind of insight into casual players that I think is sorely needed here. You know what new players love and hate because you see it.  

    What I’m skeptical of is people who are sure casual players want a timer length of x or y.  We know how people here feel about that kind of stuff because they come here and tell us. But casual players don’t come here.

     If someone says the timer should be x because it’s good for the game, I respect that.  But when someone says the timer should be x because that’s what casual players want, my tinykitty meter goes bonkers.
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    luckyvulpi said:
    I remember back when mythics were one of the top prizes for coalition events someone in the top coalition made a thread complaining about how they got 'too many mythics' and they would have to force themselves to lose in order to not get the top mythic prize because they had every mythic from the new set.


    Not only was that thread a slap in the face for everyone not in the top coalition, the mythics that person got were some of the best in the entire game and he was showing it off to everyone else.  It was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen and I think of that thread everytime 'elite' is mentioned in mtgpq.

    I would be skeptical too of elite players thinking they know the best for everyone when an elite player complained about having too many mythics which resulted in the reduction of coalition prizes and the stingyness Hibernum has about being worried they might give out too much stuff.


    This is the thread.  To this day I still remember it and it keeps me being skeptical whenever someone says one of the elite players were nice and helpful because I cannot image a nice top elite.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/53876/for-the-next-event-am-i-supposed-to-lose-on-purpose/p1

    I've actually explained before that the reduction in coalition prizes was an inevitable event. The only choices we had were a controlled slide or off the fiscal cliff. Yunn was just a symptom of his time. 

    The drop in coalition or indeed all guaranteed mythic prizes is the fault of the people who added them in the first place as prizes. It's just not sustainable and goes directly against any monetization attempts on the most enthusiastic group of players. The stinginess they have now is due to them having given out too much before. 

    We voted to go off the cliff, because who cares about reality when I can swim in my mythics? I coined the word austerity here as a reference to the Greek crisis, and people ran with it. I'm not completely convinced they understand I was referring to the Greeks doing it to themselves with their previous unsustainable spending off future debt. 
  • luckyvulpi
    luckyvulpi Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    All out war
    Oh wow.  So the reason we stopped getting good rewards was just because it was inevitable and we had to stop getting good rewards sometime.  That's news to me.  Thank you for your insight.

    Since you know so much, can I get your thoughts about rewards in the future?  Will it be inevitable that we get even less rewards than we do now, or is the amount were getting low enough?
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    All out war
    Ohboy said:

    I've actually explained before that the reduction in coalition prizes was an inevitable event. The only choices we had were a controlled slide or off the fiscal cliff. Yunn was just a symptom of his time. 

    The drop in coalition or indeed all guaranteed mythic prizes is the fault of the people who added them in the first place as prizes. It's just not sustainable and goes directly against any monetization attempts on the most enthusiastic group of players. The stinginess they have now is due to them having given out too much before. 

    We voted to go off the cliff, because who cares about reality when I can swim in my mythics? I coined the word austerity here as a reference to the Greek crisis, and people ran with it. I'm not completely convinced they understand I was referring to the Greeks doing it to themselves with their previous unsustainable spending off future debt. 

    I can't even express how shocked I am that this fabricated pseudo-economic fairytale got 3 likes.  To pretend that giving players too many mythics is comparable to the Greek's irresponsible spending habits is both illogical and frankly insulting. 

    So lets just explore some reasons that these things are not comparable and why the "reduction in coalition prizes was an inevitable event" has no basis in fact or reason.

    1. Unlike the Greek government who can't print Euro's, the developers of MTGPQ can print as many mythics as they like.

    2. Inflation is not a thing in an environment where trade cannot occur.  Thus, distributing more mythics does not have the impact of devaluing existing mythics.

    3. Greece is unlikely to uncover a new treasure trove of natural resources that can be sold to fuel the economy. MTGPQ has a new source of revenue given to them quarterly by MTG in the form of new sets. 

    You can't just blindly believe utter and complete non-sense just because you think the orator is intelligent, convicted, and a champion of the game.  Non-sense is non-sense from anyone's mouth.

    And ironically, the austerity package in Greece had a similarly detrimental impact on the Eurozone as the PQ austerity package had on the game. Perhaps we equate the 30% unemployment in Greece with the huge attrition rates.  Perhaps we equate the Not.Another.Dime movement with the large scale depression that followed austerity in Greece.

    Once again... lets explore possible solutions that could have fixed the issues of having top players getting a far outsized collection of good cards which created a barrier to newer or more casual players:

    • Create a fair matchmaking system based on ELO with different brackets of players and coalitions for each event.  Let top players and coalitions in lower tier brackets also collect mythic tier prizes or mana jewels which will eventually cause them to move up to higher tiers.
    • Make the cards actually collectible for players with enough time, skill, and/or money. Make the game a collectible card game like paper magic rather than one in which players get to play with just a minority of the existing mythic/masterpiece cards.  (If some cards are too overpowered and deckbuilding gets redundant, this is a problem with card balance not collectability)
    • Create a "card crafting" system where players can target certain cards.
    I have yet to see a reasoned response for why the above solution would not have been a better response than the austerity package D3 used.   All I ever get is, "Look, the toxic elites want to keep their mythic gravy train".  Which is of course the classic response to anyone who is getting utterly destroyed by facts and reason in a debate.
  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    All out war
    @luckyvulpi just for the record the thread you are referring to was made by yunnn. Who seemed to think that he was very funny. I'd also like to point out that he was no veteran. He couldn't have been playing more than 2 or 3 months when he made that post. It just was the golden era for rewards. He got lucky early with some game breaking cards, found a coalition that placed well. And his interest in the game apparently went away just as quickly.

    He is not the best example. He was not there from the start. He did not care about the game like the so called "elites" do, as pointed out by Matthew. Those are the players who have been here through all the ups and downs.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    babar3355 said:
    Ohboy said:

    I've actually explained before that the reduction in coalition prizes was an inevitable event. The only choices we had were a controlled slide or off the fiscal cliff. Yunn was just a symptom of his time. 

    The drop in coalition or indeed all guaranteed mythic prizes is the fault of the people who added them in the first place as prizes. It's just not sustainable and goes directly against any monetization attempts on the most enthusiastic group of players. The stinginess they have now is due to them having given out too much before. 

    We voted to go off the cliff, because who cares about reality when I can swim in my mythics? I coined the word austerity here as a reference to the Greek crisis, and people ran with it. I'm not completely convinced they understand I was referring to the Greeks doing it to themselves with their previous unsustainable spending off future debt. 

    I can't even express how shocked I am that this fabricated pseudo-economic fairytale got 3 likes.  To pretend that giving players too many mythics is comparable to the Greek's irresponsible spending habits is both illogical and frankly insulting. 

    So lets just explore some reasons that these things are not comparable and why the "reduction in coalition prizes was an inevitable event" has no basis in fact or reason.

    1. Unlike the Greek government who can't print Euro's, the developers of MTGPQ can print as many mythics as they like.

    2. Inflation is not a thing in an environment where trade cannot occur.  Thus, distributing more mythics does not have the impact of devaluing existing mythics.

    3. Greece is unlikely to uncover a new treasure trove of natural resources that can be sold to fuel the economy. MTGPQ has a new source of revenue given to them quarterly by MTG in the form of new sets. 

    You can't just blindly believe utter and complete non-sense just because you think the orator is intelligent, convicted, and a champion of the game.  Non-sense is non-sense from anyone's mouth.

    And ironically, the austerity package in Greece had a similarly detrimental impact on the Eurozone as the PQ austerity package had on the game. Perhaps we equate the 30% unemployment in Greece with the huge attrition rates.  Perhaps we equate the Not.Another.Dime movement with the large scale depression that followed austerity in Greece.

    Once again... lets explore possible solutions that could have fixed the issues of having top players getting a far outsized collection of good cards which created a barrier to newer or more casual players:

    • Create a fair matchmaking system based on ELO with different brackets of players and coalitions for each event.  Let top players and coalitions in lower tier brackets also collect mythic tier prizes or mana jewels which will eventually cause them to move up to higher tiers.
    • Make the cards actually collectible for players with enough time, skill, and/or money. Make the game a collectible card game like paper magic rather than one in which players get to play with just a minority of the existing mythic/masterpiece cards.  (If some cards are too overpowered and deckbuilding gets redundant, this is a problem with card balance not collectability)
    • Create a "card crafting" system where players can target certain cards.
    I have yet to see a reasoned response for why the above solution would not have been a better response than the austerity package D3 used.   All I ever get is, "Look, the toxic elites want to keep their mythic gravy train".  Which is of course the classic response to anyone who is getting utterly destroyed by facts and reason in a debate.
    It's not really all that illogical.

    The developers create this game to make money yes? That we should be able to agree on. So however they design the game, they will need to be able to make enough of a profit from it. I believe that we can agree on.

    Now what options do people have to spend money on in this game? Cards, planeswalkers and/or Crystals which lead back to the goal of obtaining more cards and planeswalkers.

    I've been a F2P player of this game since it was released. I ranked up to Gold when the Colour Mastery system was first released and then to Platinum when Platinum was added. I have never been in a top coalition so I never earned the guaranteed Mythic that the top 2 coalitions used to get but I generally placed well on individual rankings in events and earned a decent share of rewards off QB.

    My BFZ+OGW collection is 93% complete. I'm missing 20 cards of which 11 are Mythics.
    My SOI+EM collection is 92% complete. I'm missing 20 cards of which 17 are Mythics.
    I have never had problems having enough Crystals for purchasing new planeswalkers once they enter the Vault for Crystals.
    So imagine how much closer to 100% the collections of the top players must be with their additional guaranteed Mythics.
    (In comparison, my AKH collection is at 84% and AER is around 70%.)

    My question to you is what would they spend money on if they have essentially all the cards and planeswalkers? Top players could afford to hoard hundreds of packs to open only on the addition of the paid-exclusive Mythics as a sign of how much excess there was in that era. At the same time they hoard thousands of Crystals to awaiting the release of each new set.

    From what I understand, people spent money then on catching up if they joined later and on exclusive Mythics from time to time when a really powerful card came out. Otherwise, these most devoted group of players could rather reliably earn most of the non-exclusive cards from playing for free.

    If your primary source of spending comes from new entrants, you're going to hit a point where you don't get any more money because there aren't that many new people joining and the older players aren't spending much except for a few whales. Would you consider that sustainable in the long-term?

    Also on your 3 points:
    1. Unlike the Greek government who can't print Euro's, the developers of MTGPQ can print as many mythics as they like.
    2. Inflation is not a thing in an environment where trade cannot occur.  Thus, distributing more mythics does not have the impact of devaluing existing mythics.
    3. Greece is unlikely to uncover a new treasure trove of natural resources that can be sold to fuel the economy. MTGPQ has a new source of revenue given to them quarterly by MTG in the form of new sets.

    Inflation is a devaluation of the currency in terms of its purchasing power. The applicable comparison in MtGPQ is that the money people put into the game was being devalued by the high amount of rewards dished out in the game. Why pay $80(?) for 1,850 Crystals when you can earn it in-game in two weeks?

    And you can get guaranteed Rares and Mythics from playing whereas your 1,850 Crystals could just lead you to be creating a rant thread on the forums about how the drop rates must be rigged.

    If people don't spend, the developers cannot earn money. If they cannot earn money, they have little incentive the continue developing the game. The publisher has little incentive to fund development on the game. The game won't last.

    While this will become just another game which we used to enjoy, it is their livelihood.

    If people don't spend, those new sets aren't a new source of revenue cause they don't earn money from people spending their saved up Crystals. They earn money only when people pay for stuff in-game with legal tender.

    Did I enjoy the times when rewards were abundant? Of course. We had more cards to play with and events were more exciting when there's a big reward being offered for being the best.
    Would I enjoy having better returns for the time I invest in this game? Most definitely yes, more rewards for the same or less effort makes things sweeter.

    But do I understand that giving a group of players guaranteed Mythics and the rest little in the means of obtaining guaranteed Mythics will lead to a widening disparity in the player base and the problems that come along with it? Yes. In most games if people feel like the leader is running away with their lead and they aren't the one leading, they will eventually stop playing when they feel like the gap is too wide.
    Do I believe that giving players enough free currency and rewards in-game to the extent that they can start hoarding massive hoards worth hundreds of dollars (based on the in-game Crystal prices) every set would have an impact on the developer's revenue flows? Yes. Because what would players be willing to spend money on?

    And ironically, the austerity package in Greece had a similarly detrimental impact on the Eurozone as the PQ austerity package had on the game. Perhaps we equate the 30% unemployment in Greece with the huge attrition rates.  Perhaps we equate the Not.Another.Dime movement with the large scale depression that followed austerity in Greece.

    The whole point of austerity is that one has already overspent by overborrowing from the future self. When you go into debt, you can afford more than you normally can. To correct this balance, you would need to spend less than you can afford to start reducing your debt. Obviously when you're spending less than you can afford, your general level of welfare is worse than when you were spending more than you could afford.

    Once again... lets explore possible solutions that could have fixed the issues of having top players getting a far outsized collection of good cards which created a barrier to newer or more casual players:
    • Create a fair matchmaking system based on ELO with different brackets of players and coalitions for each event.  Let top players and coalitions in lower tier brackets also collect mythic tier prizes or mana jewels which will eventually cause them to move up to higher tiers.
    • Make the cards actually collectible for players with enough time, skill, and/or money. Make the game a collectible card game like paper magic rather than one in which players get to play with just a minority of the existing mythic/masterpiece cards.  (If some cards are too overpowered and deckbuilding gets redundant, this is a problem with card balance not collectability)
    • Create a "card crafting" system where players can target certain cards.

    I'm with the idea of having an ELO system for fairer matchmaking but it won't address the issue of top players running away with an outsized collection of good cards. The whole issue about the reward system is that rewards must go up every time someone progresses in a tier. Otherwise, people would rather sandbag in a lower tier to get better rewards for less effort which we have witnessed before in the history of this game.

    But on the other hand, if the rewards slope is too steep then it becomes near impossible for newer players to catch up. Think of the amount of free rewards as the speed at which you're driving your car. A car going on average at 20mph is highly unlikely to be able to catch a car going on average at 40mph.

    And it's not exactly easy to design a rewards system that has rewards going up every tier while still keeping rewards somewhat flat enough that the top players don't run away in terms of card collection and amassed resources.

    Paper MTG has economies of scale which MtGPQ does not (and will likely never) have and operates in a different environment too. The number of paper MTG players is magnitudes above that of MtGPQ players. The servers required to keep MtGPQ running cost money to maintain for as long people are playing the game. Paper cards don't cost anything to WotC once printed, distributed and sold.

    The app has to be compatible not only with the different OS versions but also phones with different specifications from different makers. The developers have to constantly be vigilant against hacking of the app or other exploits. If a paper card is ruined after being sold, the player has to bear the responsibility and not WotC.

    And whenever people talk about a card crafting system, I think of Hearthstone. Hearthstone's drop rate and card collection size is also such that you cannot complete your card collection unless you spend a significant amount of moolah. Sure you can craft cards, but you can't earn anywhere near enough dust as a F2P player to craft even most of the cards you want. And that's the number 1 app in the mobile card game category.

    An MtGPQ player earns more stuff per week than a Hearthstone player does even when rerolling quests to maximise the gold earned. In any case we have a booster crafting system coming up so let's see what we get from that.

    Shall I say I find it shocking that you do not see any merit in the reduction in rewards?

  • luckyvulpi
    luckyvulpi Posts: 40 Just Dropped In
    All out war
    @khurram
    If you seriously don't consider someone in the top coalition getting the top rewards for placing in the top ranks to not be elite, then I don't know what to tell you.  I'd consider that type of person to be elite and I'm sure others would agree.

    If we were talking about 'elites' as long time veteran players who stuck around and care about the game and are generally nice friendly people then I'm sure that group of 'elites' are as nice as they like to claim but historically elites have always been those at the top.

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