Toxic Elite vs n00bs... going forward, how should they relate to each other?

24

Comments

  • Sirchombli
    Sirchombli Posts: 322 Mover and Shaker
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    Ohboy said:

    There needs to be a penalty imposed on people who don't move up if this is implemented. The carrot and the stick. It's as simple as that. And people are unwilling to support that idea. 
    That's a bit presumptuous. I don't recall anything like that being brought up. It could be a good idea, just haven't heard said idea, yet. I'm all ears, though. 
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    ElvaanStrider said:
    TheDragonHermit said:
    My experience as a noob here is that the "toxic" elite have been nothing but helpful, so I cannot vote for either option in the false dichotomy presented here. Put me up for a rising tide raises all boats. The elite have always seemed to give people who needed help a hand up, and the game works better for it.
    This is 100% truth.

    Within a day of joining the Forums I got tons of advice and invited to a Discord group full of veterans who have been nothing helpful and nice.

    Tomorrow will be two weeks since starting this game and I am way further along progression-wise than I should be.


    No one is a noob here for long. Your final statement says it all. 

    This poll begs the question, because the noobs that stay noobs and struggle are the ones who do not join online communities like the forums, reddit or Facebook.

    The noobs and elite players have minimal contact. There's no conflict. Everyone you see here is either an elite player or on the way to become one(temporarily embarrassed elites, to paraphrase Ronald Wright) .

    It's painfully obvious that most players don't frequent our haunts just by looking at the numbers. 

    If you're here and you're reading this, you're already part of the elite class. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    As neutrally as a neutral option in a forum poll
    Ohboy said:
    ElvaanStrider said:
    TheDragonHermit said:
    My experience as a noob here is that the "toxic" elite have been nothing but helpful, so I cannot vote for either option in the false dichotomy presented here. Put me up for a rising tide raises all boats. The elite have always seemed to give people who needed help a hand up, and the game works better for it.
    This is 100% truth.

    Within a day of joining the Forums I got tons of advice and invited to a Discord group full of veterans who have been nothing helpful and nice.

    Tomorrow will be two weeks since starting this game and I am way further along progression-wise than I should be.


    No one is a noob here for long. Your final statement says it all. 

    This poll begs the question, because the noobs that stay noobs and struggle are the ones who do not join online communities like the forums, reddit or Facebook.

    The noobs and elite players have minimal contact. There's no conflict. Everyone you see here is either an elite player or on the way to become one(temporarily embarrassed elites, to paraphrase Ronald Wright) .

    It's painfully obvious that most players don't frequent our haunts just by looking at the numbers. 

    If you're here and you're reading this, you're already part of the elite class. 

    If that's all it takes to become an elite, then any supposed barrier is a self-imposed one.

    That being said, the game could do a better job of promoting the forums in-game, if the thought is that the only reason more people aren't on the forums is because they don't know about it yet. 
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    Ohboy said:
    ElvaanStrider said:
    TheDragonHermit said:
    My experience as a noob here is that the "toxic" elite have been nothing but helpful, so I cannot vote for either option in the false dichotomy presented here. Put me up for a rising tide raises all boats. The elite have always seemed to give people who needed help a hand up, and the game works better for it.
    This is 100% truth.

    Within a day of joining the Forums I got tons of advice and invited to a Discord group full of veterans who have been nothing helpful and nice.

    Tomorrow will be two weeks since starting this game and I am way further along progression-wise than I should be.


    No one is a noob here for long. Your final statement says it all. 

    This poll begs the question, because the noobs that stay noobs and struggle are the ones who do not join online communities like the forums, reddit or Facebook.

    The noobs and elite players have minimal contact. There's no conflict. Everyone you see here is either an elite player or on the way to become one(temporarily embarrassed elites, to paraphrase Ronald Wright) .

    It's painfully obvious that most players don't frequent our haunts just by looking at the numbers. 

    If you're here and you're reading this, you're already part of the elite class. 

    If that's all it takes to become an elite, then any supposed barrier is a self-imposed one.

    That being said, the game could do a better job of promoting the forums in-game, if the thought is that the only reason more people aren't on the forums is because they don't know about it yet. 



    Exactly why I keep saying. If you're not going to put update notes in app to inform people...at least give a link to the forums.


    That barrier is low only because of the low population right now though. There's a limit to the population and the elite teams start having the luxury to choose people they want to support/help. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    As neutrally as a neutral option in a forum poll
    I've been saying that for months as well, but I gave up on trying to make that happen after Brigby was seemingly ignored by the devs after asking us all how the inbox could be used better. 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    All out war
    After posing the poll question in the thread title, I went on to define my terms a little further in the first post of this thread, differentiating them as 'casual' and 'hardcore' players.

    You may think that n00bs by definition don't come to the forums, and if that's how you want to define the term, I won't argue the point.

    But clearly, both hardcore and casual players come to the forums, and they do seem rather to violently disagree on some subjects, like 4 or 8 hour respawns for events, don't they?
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    shteev said:
    After posing the poll question in the thread title, I went on to define my terms a little further in the first post of this thread, differentiating them as 'casual' and 'hardcore' players.

    You may think that n00bs by definition don't come to the forums, and if that's how you want to define the term, I won't argue the point.

    But clearly, both hardcore and casual players come to the forums, and they do seem rather to violently disagree on some subjects, like 4 or 8 hour respawns for events, don't they?

    In really disproportionate numbers. 

    And it's hard to stay on message when the other side brigades into the thread and starts insulting you en masse. Remember I started off simply saying rewards were too high and it got spun into some big fight over whether I was jealous of not being in a top coalition and whether I deserved less rewards because I didn't put in effort in the game. More recently @Phillmoore got attacked a few times in his thread for simply stating his experience with the 6h pve.  

    The side with numbers then points to their numerical superiority and declares victory(look how many people disagree with you Mr negative!) . It's usually not a violent disagreement between factions so much as one guy saying something and getting attacked by the overwhelming legions then having to defend himself and losing the message in the process. See how in philmoore's thread it's just him taking a silent beating because he really refuses to address the insults and divert from his message. He can't win. 

    You can call that a fair fight or discussion if you want. But it's really not. 

    In the perfect world, people would be unbiased and call out nonsense no matter which side they're on. Ours exists in no such perfect universe. When grizzo cursed at philmoore, and andrew declared that philmoore should be ignored,the mob gave tacit approval of by not calling out the poster. Now imagine if philmoore was the one saying these things as a retort to people refuting his point. Now you can point to him and say : "look how unreasonable he is. Why can't he be more understanding? Why does it always have to be war?"


    Obviously the "correct" answer to give is to be understanding and respectful. Therein lies the trap in the question. There's no way for the minority to do that and get heard. He always ends up in a siege no matter how respectfully he starts out. The smaller voice always has to shout just to be heard and he gets called out for shouting. The individual in the mob can shout all he likes and not be called out for it because he's drowned out by the sea of murmurs.










  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    Ohboy said:
    shteev said:
    After posing the poll question in the thread title, I went on to define my terms a little further in the first post of this thread, differentiating them as 'casual' and 'hardcore' players.

    You may think that n00bs by definition don't come to the forums, and if that's how you want to define the term, I won't argue the point.

    But clearly, both hardcore and casual players come to the forums, and they do seem rather to violently disagree on some subjects, like 4 or 8 hour respawns for events, don't they?

    In really disproportionate numbers. 

    And it's hard to stay on message when the other side brigades into the thread and starts insulting you en masse. Remember I started off simply saying rewards were too high and it got spun into some big fight over whether I was jealous of not being in a top coalition and whether I deserved less rewards because I didn't put in effort in the game. More recently @Phillmoore got attacked a few times in his thread for simply stating his experience with the 6h pve.  

    The side with numbers then points to their numerical superiority and declares victory(look how many people disagree with you Mr negative!) . It's usually not a violent disagreement between factions so much as one guy saying something and getting attacked by the overwhelming legions then having to defend himself and losing the message in the process. See how in philmoore's thread it's just him taking a silent beating because he really refuses to address the insults and divert from his message. He can't win. 

    You can call that a fair fight or discussion if you want. But it's really not. 

    In the perfect world, people would be unbiased and call out nonsense no matter which side they're on. Ours exists in no such perfect universe. When grizzo cursed at philmoore, and andrew declared that philmoore should be ignored,the mob gave tacit approval of by not calling out the poster. Now imagine if philmoore was the one saying these things as a retort to people refuting his point. Now you can point to him and say : "look how unreasonable he is. Why can't he be more understanding? Why does it always have to be war?"


    Obviously the "correct" answer to give is to be understanding and respectful. Therein lies the trap in the question. There's no way for the minority to do that and get heard. He always ends up in a siege no matter how respectfully he starts out. The smaller voice always has to shout just to be heard and he gets called out for shouting. The individual in the mob can shout all he likes and not be called out for it because he's drowned out by the sea of murmurs.










    While I don't condone the actions of how many behaved on that thread, I also don't condone phillmore's title or tone creating the thread. 

    We had a great week on the forum, there were disagreements, of course, but they were respectful. 

    @Brigby and Oktagon worked hard to mold the game based on feedback from the majority, both competitive and casual -- based on healthy discussion and feedback. 

    That being said, I really don't condone the tone in which this thread was started -- it's the same principle -- if you start a thread with negative connotations in the title and opening post -- expect the people who give feedback to follow that tone. 

    I sought out this forum 2 weeks after the game was created, looking for a community which could help answer some things I didn't understand about the game. I am one of the longest members in the MTGPQ forum here. I imagine that many other new players end up here for the same reasons. 

    Would you want to stay in a game if you were coming in here blind?

    I wouldn't. 

    I think we all need to rethink how we address each other and the tone we are setting on this forum (ME INCLUDED) and work to make this a place that grows the game. 

    @Ohboy -- you and I recently had a private conversation -- and you said everyone has ulterior motives -- I said something to the extent of 'I don't -- I just want to make the game fun for everyone" -- and you pointed out to me that ulterior motives don't have to be negative. I appreciated that conversation, and I think everyone could learn a bit from it. 

    Why are we here and what do we want from this community?
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    bken1234 said:

    Would you want to stay in a game if you were coming in here blind?

    I wouldn't. 


    This is a major part of what I feel the game should change. The expected baseline shouldn't be "anyone who comes to the forums will be fine"

    People should want to play the game even if they were coming in blind.

    It's also why I hate it when people say "just join a good coalition or alliance". It's the opposite of an answer to how we can make the game more open to everyone.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    Ohboy said:
    bken1234 said:

    Would you want to stay in a game if you were coming in here blind?

    I wouldn't. 


    This is a major part of what I feel the game should change. The expected baseline shouldn't be "anyone who comes to the forums will be fine"

    People should want to play the game even if they were coming in blind.

    It's also why I hate it when people say "just join a good coalition or alliance". It's the opposite of an answer to how we can make the game more open to everyone.
    What I'm saying is -- especially for a social gamer -- as this game has coalitions and is now a social game -- If the negativity of this forum were your first taste, is this a place you would want to stay?

    Also, I think the advice to join a good coalition comes more for people who have sought and found more welcoming, helpful communities other places. 

    Which goes to the point of my post. This should be a place where everyone feels welcome. Most of the top players in this game (and by top I don't mean top 10 -- I mean the longest and the best -- competitive and casual) are here, and can really contribute to the longevity of the game -- and all we do is bicker on this general board. It's ridiculous. 
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    I was recently suggesting that after losses on RotGP top bosses there should be hints and now I know how to implement that...

    A link to a specified forum thread for that particular boss where it can be discussed. It gives peoples the tools they need but also gets them involved in the forums.
  • Matthew
    Matthew Posts: 605 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    Ohboy said:

    Exactly why I keep saying. If you're not going to put update notes in app to inform people...at least give a link to the forums.


    That barrier is low only because of the low population right now though. There's a limit to the population and the elite teams start having the luxury to choose people they want to support/help. 
    @Brigby

    Is there any way you could bring this up to Oktagon?
  • TheDragonHermit
    TheDragonHermit Posts: 465 Mover and Shaker
    Ohboy said:
    Mainloop25 said:
    Ohboy said:
    ElvaanStrider said:
    TheDragonHermit said:
    My experience as a noob here is that the "toxic" elite have been nothing but helpful, so I cannot vote for either option in the false dichotomy presented here. Put me up for a rising tide raises all boats. The elite have always seemed to give people who needed help a hand up, and the game works better for it.
    This is 100% truth.

    Within a day of joining the Forums I got tons of advice and invited to a Discord group full of veterans who have been nothing helpful and nice.

    Tomorrow will be two weeks since starting this game and I am way further along progression-wise than I should be.


    No one is a noob here for long. Your final statement says it all. 

    This poll begs the question, because the noobs that stay noobs and struggle are the ones who do not join online communities like the forums, reddit or Facebook.

    The noobs and elite players have minimal contact. There's no conflict. Everyone you see here is either an elite player or on the way to become one(temporarily embarrassed elites, to paraphrase Ronald Wright) .

    It's painfully obvious that most players don't frequent our haunts just by looking at the numbers. 

    If you're here and you're reading this, you're already part of the elite class. 

    If that's all it takes to become an elite, then any supposed barrier is a self-imposed one.

    That being said, the game could do a better job of promoting the forums in-game, if the thought is that the only reason more people aren't on the forums is because they don't know about it yet. 



    Exactly why I keep saying. If you're not going to put update notes in app to inform people...at least give a link to the forums.


    That barrier is low only because of the low population right now though. There's a limit to the population and the elite teams start having the luxury to choose people they want to support/help. 
    I made my way to the forum after searching for help with a part of story mode. At that point I avoided events because I found myself struggling to get anywhere. Within a week of lurking in the forums I read enough tips to almost make progression in most events. Everything from PW advice to deck theory is here, and that the game doesn't promote the forums is a crying shame. There could be such a major advantage in linking a forum login to the game recovery, and it would give so many players a quick hand up.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    As neutrally as a neutral option in a forum poll
    madwren said:
    Ohboy said:
    shteev said:
    After posing the poll question in the thread title, I went on to define my terms a little further in the first post of this thread, differentiating them as 'casual' and 'hardcore' players.

    You may think that n00bs by definition don't come to the forums, and if that's how you want to define the term, I won't argue the point.

    But clearly, both hardcore and casual players come to the forums, and they do seem rather to violently disagree on some subjects, like 4 or 8 hour respawns for events, don't they?

    More recently @Phillmoore got attacked a few times in his thread for simply stating his experience with the 6h pve.  


    By "simply stating his experience", you mean "revert back to 4 hour recharges for the players of the game, not the elitists who only want to win but don’t want to play", right? It's hard to be surprised when something like that meets with hostility, especially when he's previously shown the same inclination to dismiss, rather than acknowledge, the validity of complaints about the 4-hour recharge. 

    I'm not saying we all have to disagree, but the tone of his post was neither positive nor inclusive. It was sour and insulting.

    I was going to write this as well but you beat me to it, so I am just quoting to agree. I think he knows that sort of tone won't be met kindly anymore because he hasn't been active on the forum since he posted that. 
  • Phillmoore
    Phillmoore Posts: 207 Tile Toppler
    All out war
    @mainloop25 and others. My main concern was not so much the change to 6 hours which would be acceptable If there was more game content at the weekend for the people who want more to play.

      Having finished story mode, on Saturday when I have time the only thing I can do is either grind TG for little reward or play 3 modes and then wait.  This does not seem like a game more a wait for content to play

    who else when they buy a video game stops after 20 minutes. I’d be surprised if like me you were not hooked on the game and played it through within 3/4 days. 

    4 hours at least means there is game content to play fairly often

    why I am defending myself seems insane.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If this offended anyone then maybe like the song we should all take a look in the mirror and understand our motive for wanting 4 6 or 8 hour charges

    mine for wanting 4 hours is because this is a game and as such I expect there to be sufficient content to play at any time.  

    Solution for me would be to give us Mondays host of events on Saturday 
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mainloop25 said:
    madwren said:
    Ohboy said:
    shteev said:
    After posing the poll question in the thread title, I went on to define my terms a little further in the first post of this thread, differentiating them as 'casual' and 'hardcore' players.

    You may think that n00bs by definition don't come to the forums, and if that's how you want to define the term, I won't argue the point.

    But clearly, both hardcore and casual players come to the forums, and they do seem rather to violently disagree on some subjects, like 4 or 8 hour respawns for events, don't they?

    More recently @Phillmoore got attacked a few times in his thread for simply stating his experience with the 6h pve.  


    By "simply stating his experience", you mean "revert back to 4 hour recharges for the players of the game, not the elitists who only want to win but don’t want to play", right? It's hard to be surprised when something like that meets with hostility, especially when he's previously shown the same inclination to dismiss, rather than acknowledge, the validity of complaints about the 4-hour recharge. 

    I'm not saying we all have to disagree, but the tone of his post was neither positive nor inclusive. It was sour and insulting.

    I was going to write this as well but you beat me to it, so I am just quoting to agree. I think he knows that sort of tone won't be met kindly anymore because he hasn't been active on the forum since he posted that. 
    However -- I am quite proud of most who responded. The discussion was dignified. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    As neutrally as a neutral option in a forum poll
    @Phillmoore I just want to say that I agree with you. The removal of the weekend Pvp event doesn't make sense to me, and even less sense now that they have relieved the pressure of the PvE significantly. I would like to see one of the Monday events moved to Saturday as well. 
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
    Attempting to understand and be respectful of each other's position
    The schedule right now makes no sense.  Today there’s nothing, on the weekend there’s only RotGP.  Then Monday has 6 events? 

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