Pvp vs Pve

corytutor

More attainable in a harder scl? You're losing me here. Maybe you could give an example?

Borstock

corytutor said:

More attainable in a harder scl? You're losing me here. Maybe you could give an example?

T50 rewards in SCL9 vs. T50 rewards in SCL8.

Pants1000

I don't think the devs are ever planning to do that.  It's different because a lot more people currently get max progression in PVE.  I also think the devs are trying to encourage competition instead of cooperation in PVP.  

But I'll answer the question anyway.  I would be upset, and I'd suggest that more people in higher CL's should get the CP.  

I've suggested it before, and many others have too.  It's silly for t10 in CL5 and CL8 to give CP.  It should be t10 in 6/7, t25 in 8, and soon t50 in 9.  And like in PVE the amount should scale up too.

corytutor

I see borstock. 

I dont know about you but a 4x initial clear in cl9 takes me about 15 minutes longer than cl8. Same with grinds. So about an extra 30 minutes a day. Over a 7 day events thats 3.5 extra hours. 

I dont know what the difference at t50 from one to the next but im assuming its only a few thousand iso and a little hp? Maybe a token or two?

3.5 hours versus that small difference, im going to go for faster clears. I need more pvp time now, and since i have to farm more pvp wins, I'll make the iso there. 

abmoraz

This question mimics an argument/discussion I was having in a different thread.  I thinkl the question is very valid, just framed in the wrong way.  I'll explain:

First, we need to view the game from the Dev's point of view, rather than the players' point of view.  We spend most of our time framing our arguments from our myopic point of view.  We see "They took away CP we could definitely get and moved it to a place where it's unlikely, but not impossible, for us to achieve."  However, from the Dev's point of view, they did the following "This event is going to give out exactly this amount of CP instead of an unknown amount as in the past." 

"How does this make sense?" you may ask.  Well, Progression rewards are effectively infinite where as placement rewards are static and a well known commodity.  In any given event, any number of players can reach the progression rewards.  There is no roadblock or competition for them other than the player's own time and effort.  If all 1,000 players in a group play the entire event, than all 1,000 of them get the 30CP (meaning 30,000CP have entered the game economy).  However, the group could also go the other route and none of the 1,000 players plays all the way through, so no one reaches the progression point and 0CP enter the economy.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  From personal observation of my placement in the events, I would estimate that about 65% of players reach the final progression reward in the slice that I play (slice 5).  I'm not sure if that is truly representative, but it's the number I'm using for this example.  65% clearance rate means that 650 players get to the final 30CP.  That is 19,500CP entering the game's economy.

Placement rewards are static and a known value for the devs.  If only the top 10 player get 50CP and the next 40 get 5, that is 700CP entering the game's economy (50x10 + 40X5).  It doesn't matter if the players in a given slice+group play a lot or a little.  There are going to be at least 50 players so that reward is given out every time.  No matter how much or little we play, they are going to give out 700CP per group.

700CP vs 19,500CP (on average) per event.  Moving the rewards from Progression to Placement is just a way for them to obfuscate the fact that they think we, as a player base, are getting too much CP from events.  It allows them to say "You can still get the 30CP, you just have to 'Git Gud'" while hiding the fact that they have effectively reduced the rewards by over 99.65%

(note, all reward numbers were made up from memory, as I don't have my tablet with me at work to look up the actual numbers.  They my vary slightly, but the orders of magnitude are correct, so the final percentage difference will not vary too much)

animaniactoo

Alright, here ya go: I am a regular T50 player, was getting to be pretty regular T20 and T10 when I had more time/willingness to be a little extra insane earlier this year.

I did not mind them moving the larger CP reward to the end of Progression, because they frontloaded the front with ISO to offset it, so people got something that would actively help them advance their roster either way, and ISO is more useful to a more casual/newer player anyway.

I STRONGLY minded and continue to mind that they changed it so that you need 5 clears for Max progression. Yeah, you can still get there by going overboard if you're locked out of the 4/5 nodes, but I think that simply encourages the unhealthiness of the amount of time required to play to progress at all.

Yeah, the game is a grinder. But there's a point where too much grinding is way too much for a mobile relatively casual game and if the devs think this will ever be anything other than that they're fooling themselves.

So I did not like that change, I continue not to like it, and I think that the PVP players who are upset about the NUMBER of wins required to get max progression have a point. I am more neutral on the category of who gets to have the CP. I think possibly a better solution would have been to split that final reward, with some of it going towards a final progression reward and some of it going towards a placement reward as enticement and making it worth playing for more than just progression rewards.

corytutor

Pve used to require way more clears. 

I see your point @abmoraz but then why leave cp static in pve rewards? Its been well known for awhile that you get more cp from pve than pvp. 

Pants1000

corytutor said:

I see borstock. 

I dont know about you but a 4x initial clear in cl9 takes me about 15 minutes longer than cl8. Same with grinds. So about an extra 30 minutes a day. Over a 7 day events thats 3.5 extra hours. 

I dont know what the difference at t50 from one to the next but im assuming its only a few thousand iso and a little hp? Maybe a token or two?

3.5 hours versus that small difference, im going to go for faster clears. I need more pvp time now, and since i have to farm more pvp wins, I'll make the iso there. 

No, in a 3 day event with 24 hour subs, t50 in CL9 gets you a 4* cover and 10 CP that you wouldn't get in CL8.  7 CP from progression, 3 CP from the 5* node, and a 4* from placement.  If you can get t20, add another 4* cover.

There's a little more HP and ISO too, but I play CL9 for the 4* and CP.

corytutor

I was simply referring to placement rewards specifically as that was the ecample given. 

But yeah...love them 3 cp nodes for sure

abmoraz

corytutor said:

Pve used to require way more clears. 

I see your point @abmoraz but then why leave cp static in pve rewards? Its been well known for awhile that you get more cp from pve than pvp. 

I'm not on the Dev team, so I can't really answer that.  You want numbers?  I can gather factual data (or at least extrapolate it) all day long and present it. 

As for motivations?  Any guess is just as valid as another.  Maybe they have Alzheimer's and make no rational decisions?  Maybe they have some secret plan to cause us to fight amongst ourselves?  Maybe they just don't think about it in that frame of reference?  Maybe they are going to change it and just haven't gotten around to it yet?  Maybe they're a room filled with infinite monkeys and an infinite amount of computers just pounding out valid Perl code?  Maybe it's some other reason? 

Every one of those is as valid as the other since we have no data to go on...

Stax the Foyer

Punisher5784 said:

corytutor said:

No im talking about when they move the 30cp to placement instead of point progression. 

I dont care about win count as i often exceed the numbers they chose anyway 

They already increased the final progression from 4 to 5 each node. They also moved the bulk of the CP to the end. PvE players were outraged for the change just as much as the PvP players are now. Did the PvP players stand-up for the PvE players? Not that I can recall. 

Of course they did.  Plenty of people from all levels of gameplay commented on these changes and the impact they could have.  There's always a large amount of feedback that isn't us-versus-them.  Blindly asserting that there isn't helps nobody.

Daredevil217

corytutor said:

broll said:

corytutor said:

No im talking about when they move the 30cp to placement instead of point progression. 

I dont care about win count as i often exceed the numbers they chose anyway 

I don't think that would happen.  In PvE progression has always been an effort stat, are you willing to put the time in?  Anyone at any roster level could do it.  PvP progression has roster requirements built into it.  A 2* player was never going to hit 1200, where a 2* player could get max PvE progression if they do 5 clears.  

The devs made the PvP change to CP (I suspect) because they didn't want to go from a small percentage of top rosters getting the extra CP to tons of people getting it.  In PvE tons of people already get it so there's no reason for a change.

And for the record I don't agree to moving the CP to placement for PvP either, I just see why they did it.  I hope they reverse it eventually.

Thats not completely accurate. 

Pve max progression is out of the hands of a 2* or 3* player already as they wont have all the required toons. 

Your basically saying tjat pvp is unfair to undeveloped rosters. Well, so is pve. Theres no difference there. It makes perfect sense that a underdeveloped roster would have difficulty at either side of the game. That doesnt make the game unfair, it just means you need to put more time and work, or cash into your roster. 

As for the cp, there will not be an increase in people achieving top cp. Maybe an increase in the ten cp but those same top percent players arent going to stop taking t10 spots. In fact more of them will because they are now forced to when before they didnt. Theres going to be little to no room for anyone else from scl5 up to 8. 

Is this even true?  I was under the impression that all required characters were given as progression rewards during the event (sans the 5* that isn't needed for max progression) and so even with no required characters to start you will get them all eventually and will then have them for the final node (which is incidentally worth the most amount of points).

TLDR: I'm pretty sure with no required characters to start you can hit max progress, you just won't place well.

corytutor

Without the essentials you fall short progression. 

Yes, you can win one of the three characters from the previous event but at that level hp and roster slots is few and precious so it may not  be immediately useful, if at all

Spudgutter

corytutor said:

I notice a lot of the supporters of the new pvp system are either A) barely play pvp anyway or  B.) Are primarily pve player. Or both. 

So whats going to happen when the changes you so blidly support happens to pve? How happy will you be when you are forced to go for t10 to get whats already currently available just from 

Who would be happy with that change? Please stop conflating people that are happy to have the chance to do better in pvp with them being happy that you are losing the cp from progression in pvp. They are not the same thing, and it just seems to be the same dozen or so people making the same arguments in different threads.

Stax the Foyer said:

Punisher5784 said:

corytutor said:

No im talking about when they move the 30cp to placement instead of point progression. 

I dont care about win count as i often exceed the numbers they chose anyway 

They already increased the final progression from 4 to 5 each node. They also moved the bulk of the CP to the end. PvE players were outraged for the change just as much as the PvP players are now. Did the PvP players stand-up for the PvE players? Not that I can recall. 

Of course they did.  Plenty of people from all levels of gameplay commented on these changes and the impact they could have.  There's always a large amount of feedback that isn't us-versus-them.  Blindly asserting that there isn't helps nobody.

Not who you are quoting, but i will take a stab at it.  Pun asked if people did, and said they didnt recall. Not the same as blindly asserting. That said, i sure dont recall there being several threads on the topic like there are today (a couple from cory, the WBAS, the poll on skipping the time season), so i think the question and implication are relevant and justified.

MrCroaker64

I will give a very short and concise answer to this question.

If they moved rewards that I was currently getting in progression to placement only, I would be unhappy.

My actions afterwards may be a little different though. If I was unhappy, but still enjoyed the game, I would adjust to it and move on. If it infuriated me to the point that I wanted to break my phone, I would uninstall the game and move on. I personally do not see the point in having multiple posts and multiple threads all decrying the change and causing arguments because something in the game shifted.

I can't say how many times I have seen on these forums that "The DEV's don't listen to us anyway". If that is what is truly believed, than why would I bother spending my time, and possibly getting all worked up, over an issue when it won't make a difference.

I am not directing the previous statements towards any particular person on these forums. This is just my opinion and how I would deal with the situation.

- Croak.
 

firethorne

corytutor said:

No im talking about when they move the 30cp to placement instead of point progression. 

I dont care about win count as i often exceed the numbers they chose anyway 

Which is exactly why the devs screwed up.  They won't be able to get a good baseline of player support for the actual change to gameplay mechanics because the rewards change too, and not for the better.

So, rather than engage in some unproductive PvP vs PvE squabble, I think we need to lay out all of the concepts we are actually talking about separately.

1.  Removing CP from progression rewards:
I haven't seen anyone on any side of the argument apart from the dev team that thinks this is a good idea.  At best, you'll find people who never hit 1200 in PvP anyways, so it ends up as a non-issue for them personally, and their support hinges entirely on point 2.

2.  Switching from a points based system to a win based system for progression reward:
Taken, apart from the removal of some rewards, this one is a lot harder for me to call bad.  Granted, it could be a bit more grind, as people could probably hit the 4* in under 40 wins.  But, the new system also completely gets rid of the need for purchasing shields to climb to the 4*.  So, that personally puts it in the category of a good change (or, to clarify, it would have been a good change had it not come bundled with point 1).  I think this point, on its own, is where the productive debate could be, and I see valid concerns and postulates on both sides of the issue.

The thing to remember here is, the people who were asking for point 2 never were asking for point 1 alongside it.  Switching to a win counter never required a removal of CP from the reward list.  That was a machination of the dev team.  So, if that is the primary problem with the system, as I get the impression it is, the dev team is where the anger should be directed, not the PvE players.

Borstock

corytutor said:

I was simply referring to placement rewards specifically as that was the ecample given. 

But yeah...love them 3 cp nodes for sure

That's the point, though. Viewing rewards earned as just one big basket, if they take away rewards earned via placement, you can move up and get more through progression. It would be harder for me to t10 SCL8 than it is for me to t50 SCL9 anyway.

hopper1979

PVE and PVP are two very different systems and I am having a hard time seeing how they could make pve progress like they now do in pvp.  So please elaborate with an example that is similar. 

Next is it the change that bothers people or just the number of wins to get the rewards?  I am one of those who play pvp as much as I can (always get the 10 cp, hit 900 when possible) but I am in the weird scaling zone at the moment so things have become very difficult in pvp (I have 1 maxed 5 star and all I see are 5 maxed teams after about 300 points.)  I think the wins might improve this because now I do not have to worry about skipping people until I find somebody I can fight and get good points for.  My concern right now is the number of wins seem very high to me but that is a tweaking issue and one I hope they address next season but I have no issue with the idea of win progression.  

shardwick

aesthetocyst said:

Daredevil217 said:

Is this even true?  I was under the impression that all required characters were given as progression rewards during the event (sans the 5* that isn't needed for max progression) and so even with no required characters to start you will get them all eventually and will then have them for the final node (which is incidentally worth the most amount of points).

TLDR: I'm pretty sure with no required characters to start you can hit max progress, you just won't place well.

Back in the brief 4x = max prog days, when all the math was simple, you could indeed hit max prog with only 1 of the 3 essentials. To do it you had to play near-optimally on the rest of the nodes. 6-7 clears instead of 4, and waiting for refresh. Reason being that 4 clears was 2/3rds of all possible points, and each essentials was worth 15% of the points.

Since they raised max prog to 5 clears (83% of possible pts), you can still get there while missing 1 essential, but have to play optimally to do it.

If you have the 5* you're in luck because in SCLs that offer that node, they are essentially "bonus points" toward progression. And they are the most valuable node.

As for winning the essentials along the way ... could you start with 0 essentials and make it ... I haven't looked at that, but I'm pretty sure that's a no. But if you had only the 5*, and wion the others, there likely is a chance. Off the top of my head.

Hope that ramble helps.

Yeah, I hit max progression as a 2* player constantly during the 4x days. I used a strategy of always having a rotating extra roster slot available just so that I could roster a 3* that I didn't have so that I could do the 3* node,  get decent enough placement to win the next essential 3*, sell the current 3* and then roster the next one. Lather, rinse, repeat. Then as I got more hp I would make sure to roster all of the main 2s then slowly roster all of the 3s. Even back then I was playing optimally so getting top 10 with only the 2* and 3* essential covers was definitely possible because most people in the lower clearance levels aren't playing optimally.

If anything it would be even easier to hit max progression as a 2* player now that bonus heroes are around so you can directly target the 3* that you need to roster.

Borstock

OJSP said:

Borstock said:
That's the point, though. Viewing rewards earned as just one big basket, if they take away rewards earned via placement, you can move up and get more through progression. It would be harder for me to t10 SCL8 than it is for me to t50 SCL9 anyway.

What about those who always play the highest CL they are qualified to enter? (like me and many others)

Your question is directed at people who like the changes to PvP. Presumably, they like those changes because they are earning more. If you take away awards from PvE, at worst it's basically a wash. They don't really have anything to complain about.