Here we go again

2

Comments

  • Doc L
    Doc L Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    OJSP said:
    mexus said:
    Do you speak for "every" paying player or is this how you presume every paying player argues?
    I am not a whale but I pay here and there, sometimes a bit over the top and I don't see how this will keep me from doing that. :)
    I'm just talking from a business and economy point of view.  And those were my questions for you. I am not speaking on behalf of anyone.
    Just to add in here two things -

    i) they have previously qualified they get the majority of the money from Roster Slots, and New Character releases, and
    ii) there are a number of ‘whales’ who spend several thousand dollars each new 4* and 5* to fully cover them asap, let alone a few dozen mini-whales (orchas?) who spend a significant amount to get a number of the covers.

    If they upset these guys with making a game they don’t like, they’ll need a lot of micro transactions to make up that shortfall. Not saying they won’t, but it’s a risky move.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,796 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    mexus said:
    I don't see why whales need to stop spend because of this change.
    Would you keep paying for a product you don't like anymore? Or play a game where it takes a lot more time to achieve the same results as before or even worse results?
    They are just grabbing back some of that game time from when they had their PVE play time reduced to 20 minutes, it balances out, there they get the same rewards for a hell of a lot less game time ;)
  • Orion
    Orion Posts: 1,295 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Every time a new change happens I become extremely happy that I havent champed my 13 cover 5trange and sold two covers instead. 5* Land really sounds like it breaks the game.
    5* land breaks the game because the devs don't test at a 5* level. They've proven that over and over again. So the 5* players end up being the guinea pigs a lot of the time.
    Wjohnson992 said:
    PVE recently has become far easier for "whales" there is more CP to be had and "whales" can even drop to SCL7 and have their 5*'s blitz through for an easy t10. For newer players this new pvp will probably be thier only means of rostering a 4*.
    Dropping down to CL7 doesn't change who you see in PvP. This isn't PvE where you face lower level characters. I could play CL1 and still see the same double-champed 5*s that I'd see in CL8. But the main gripe for 5* players isn't the 40 wins. I don't care about a stupid 4* cover. I care about CP. And this system makes it way harder for me to get the 15 CP that was at the end of progression because now I have to finish top 10. Top 10 in my slice in CL8 was usually 1800+ and now it will probably be 2500+. So that means I have to either drop down to CL7 or switch to a different slice.
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Orion said:
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Every time a new change happens I become extremely happy that I havent champed my 13 cover 5trange and sold two covers instead. 5* Land really sounds like it breaks the game.
    5* land breaks the game because the devs don't test at a 5* level. They've proven that over and over again. So the 5* players end up being the guinea pigs a lot of the time.

    Did you mean to imply they test at any level :p

    In all seriousness, the main problem seems to be that they don't play the game. Otherwise many annoyances would've long been dealt with.

  • D4Ni13
    D4Ni13 Posts: 745 Critical Contributor
    Starfury said:
    Orion said:
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Every time a new change happens I become extremely happy that I havent champed my 13 cover 5trange and sold two covers instead. 5* Land really sounds like it breaks the game.
    5* land breaks the game because the devs don't test at a 5* level. They've proven that over and over again. So the 5* players end up being the guinea pigs a lot of the time.

    Did you mean to imply they test at any level :p

    In all seriousness, the main problem seems to be that they don't play the game. Otherwise many annoyances would've long been dealt with.

    I agree to this, but with all fairness, it's really hard for a dev to play the game he makes as he was a normal player. For one simply because he works on it, and would not have the same feel that a normal player has, and he probably is too fed up with developing or fixing bugs to go and actually play the game in his spare time. 

    But you are correct, many problems would be solved if somebody from the dev team would actually play the game as a vet player. Probably some gameplay testers would be a nice addition to the team ?
  • Wjohnson992
    Wjohnson992 Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
    Orion said:
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Every time a new change happens I become extremely happy that I havent champed my 13 cover 5trange and sold two covers instead. 5* Land really sounds like it breaks the game.
    5* land breaks the game because the devs don't test at a 5* level. They've proven that over and over again. So the 5* players end up being the guinea pigs a lot of the time.
    Wjohnson992 said:
    PVE recently has become far easier for "whales" there is more CP to be had and "whales" can even drop to SCL7 and have their 5*'s blitz through for an easy t10. For newer players this new pvp will probably be thier only means of rostering a 4*.
    Dropping down to CL7 doesn't change who you see in PvP. This isn't PvE where you face lower level characters. I could play CL1 and still see the same double-champed 5*s that I'd see in CL8. But the main gripe for 5* players isn't the 40 wins. I don't care about a stupid 4* cover. I care about CP. And this system makes it way harder for me to get the 15 CP that was at the end of progression because now I have to finish top 10. Top 10 in my slice in CL8 was usually 1800+ and now it will probably be 2500+. So that means I have to either drop down to CL7 or switch to a different slice.
    Good thing my post clearly mentioned easier PVE.
  • Orion
    Orion Posts: 1,295 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Orion said:
    Wjohnson992 said:
    Every time a new change happens I become extremely happy that I havent champed my 13 cover 5trange and sold two covers instead. 5* Land really sounds like it breaks the game.
    5* land breaks the game because the devs don't test at a 5* level. They've proven that over and over again. So the 5* players end up being the guinea pigs a lot of the time.
    Wjohnson992 said:
    PVE recently has become far easier for "whales" there is more CP to be had and "whales" can even drop to SCL7 and have their 5*'s blitz through for an easy t10. For newer players this new pvp will probably be thier only means of rostering a 4*.
    Dropping down to CL7 doesn't change who you see in PvP. This isn't PvE where you face lower level characters. I could play CL1 and still see the same double-champed 5*s that I'd see in CL8. But the main gripe for 5* players isn't the 40 wins. I don't care about a stupid 4* cover. I care about CP. And this system makes it way harder for me to get the 15 CP that was at the end of progression because now I have to finish top 10. Top 10 in my slice in CL8 was usually 1800+ and now it will probably be 2500+. So that means I have to either drop down to CL7 or switch to a different slice.
    Good thing my post clearly mentioned easier PVE.

    You're right.  You did.  It's apparently too early for me to be posting.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    Tony Foot said:
    They are just grabbing back some of that game time from when they had their PVE play time reduced to 20 minutes, it balances out, there they get the same rewards for a hell of a lot less game time ;)
    This is supposed to be a game. Not a second job.
    Said no dev ever apparently...
  • corytutor
    corytutor Posts: 414 Mover and Shaker
    Its a garbage solution to a long time problem and a good first step to destroying the game.  
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,796 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    Tony Foot said:
    They are just grabbing back some of that game time from when they had their PVE play time reduced to 20 minutes, it balances out, there they get the same rewards for a hell of a lot less game time ;)
    This is supposed to be a game. Not a second job.


    Come off it they love it, when I complained clears went from 4 to 5 for progression I was told to shut up as they do 7 anyway.

    I adapted, I went casual for pvp and balanced my life v game as you have in a casual alliance. If this is such a hateful change they can 575 too, get their life back and the devs can see no one bothering anymore. Then you may see change.

    But they won't, the scores will stay the same, as out of control as they were when cupcakes had to die because of the huge score gap. Now it's bigger than ever.

    While people continue to lap up something that apparently they hate nothing will change.




  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jarvind said:
    ERMAHFERGINGERD ITS TEH END OF TIEMZ

    I expect the same thing to happen that always happens:

    - Unpopular change is announced/implemented

    - Forumers lose their minds for 2-3 weeks, claims that "the whales will finally quit" are tossed about willy-nilly

    - Optional: Devs give Brigby some wishy-washy non-acknowledgement to post that basically says "we know it sucks but also we don't care"

    - One person quits and makes a big dramatic post about how the dev team is soulless and hates its customers

    - Everyone gets used to it and life continues as normal

    - Optional: That one guy that quit comes back within 6 months
    Candidate for post of the year.

    I'd add a 3rd Optional: Devs overhaul the systems 3-6 months after it was initially released.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    D4Ni13 said:
    I don't get it. Why is everybody always jumping to (very bad) conclusions before we even see the full details of something new to arrive ? 

    PvP win-based was always going to come, with 2 or 3 tests in already, it was only a matter of time. But, nobody said that it will be the same number or a different number of wins. Nobody played an entire season of this, so nobody knows how good or bad this change is. 

    Everybody thought that vaulting was bad, and while it wasn't great for everybody, it was helpful for a lot of people at that time. 

    Why don't you want to wait & see what happens, before you kill every member of the dev team for something you don't know half of ? 

    Just my 2 cents on this situation. 

    PS. I also think 40 is a bit too much, but hey, this is not a deal-breaker for me. At least you can obtain the cover if you really want it. 
    I appreciate your plea for rational behavior, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Some people thought the fan favorite poll was for nerfing our favorite characters, of course they're gonna hate any change by default. Its some weird complex they have thinking the system is rigged against them, so they have to fight any change.
    I for one am interested in the season progression rewards since that was not part of the previous tests.

  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    Candidate for post of the year.

    I'd add a 3rd Optional: Devs overhaul the systems 3-6 months after it was initially released.
    Although, since they're continually developing the game, we should really expect this anyways.
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    D4Ni13 said:
    JHawkInc said:

    You're right, in that we don't know specifics. But silence speaks volumes.
    Agree, but still they might change some things. Like I really doubt they would give us 20 HP as final reward like they did in the last test. They could still lower the number if they want to. I don't know if they do. But good thinks will come from this change also: 

    1. players that want to play only progression will not be impacted by points so they don't need to shield and they would open up their teams because of that

    2. more players with opened-up teams means more variety in teams you see overall, and this will benefit both progression oriented players and placement oriented player

    3. new strategies, since for an easier progression you don't want to be in the top, because you will fight harder teams, so this coupled with teams variety will mean overall more targets for everybody

    4. you can play as much as you want & whenever you want. A lot of players hate the fact that they have to play PvE at the start & at the end to get max progression. So if PvE is a mess, at least it is good that PvP would allow people to play whenever they want, since for progression only quantity matters and not timing or speed. 

    1. Players that are only going for progression already didn't shield. If they did, they could also hit 900pts with less than 40 wins.

    2. There won't be more variety. People will continue to use their A teams to get to the joke of 40 wins as fast as possible.

    3. It's not easier progression because you need more wins and your MMR won't change so you will continue to see the exact same teams.

    4. You can play PVE whenever you want for progression. With 5 start nodes not counting in the math for progression, it's even easier than ever to hit progression. If you want placement you'd need to run optimal.

  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    broll said:
    Bowgentle said:
    D4Ni13 said:
    I don't get it. Why is everybody always jumping to (very bad) conclusions before we even see the full details of something new to arrive ? 
    Because we've been here for four years, and every time they roll out changes in this way - throw a bomb a day before the changes are visible in game, then run and hide until stuff blows over - the changes have been BAD.
    Very bad.

    Every time.

    I for one am about 12 changes beyond giving them any benefit of the doubt any longer.
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice, shame on me.

    If you really think every change is catastrophically bad and as you stated in the announcement thread this change means the game won't live to a 5th anniversary, then why are you still playing?

    As the OP says this is vaulting all over again.  Vaulting was really good for some, really bad for others and was ultimately changed to something that's generally accepted as a good compromise.  As someone who overreacted pretty badly about vaulting, I kept playing and learned to accept, in some ways almost like it by the time it was reversed.  

    I truly hope some significant tweaks were made because there certainly were some issues with the win-based system.  If they weren't they'll probably listen to feedback for a while and come back with something similar, but slightly different in a few months.

    Do you think they tweaked vaulting on their own? Months of complaints and people quitting I'm sure helped them make that decision.
  • D4Ni13
    D4Ni13 Posts: 745 Critical Contributor
    Qubort said:
    D4Ni13 said:
    JHawkInc said:

    You're right, in that we don't know specifics. But silence speaks volumes.
    Agree, but still they might change some things. Like I really doubt they would give us 20 HP as final reward like they did in the last test. They could still lower the number if they want to. I don't know if they do. But good thinks will come from this change also: 

    1. players that want to play only progression will not be impacted by points so they don't need to shield and they would open up their teams because of that

    2. more players with opened-up teams means more variety in teams you see overall, and this will benefit both progression oriented players and placement oriented player

    3. new strategies, since for an easier progression you don't want to be in the top, because you will fight harder teams, so this coupled with teams variety will mean overall more targets for everybody

    4. you can play as much as you want & whenever you want. A lot of players hate the fact that they have to play PvE at the start & at the end to get max progression. So if PvE is a mess, at least it is good that PvP would allow people to play whenever they want, since for progression only quantity matters and not timing or speed. 

    1. Players that are only going for progression already didn't shield. If they did, they could also hit 900pts with less than 40 wins.

    2. There won't be more variety. People will continue to use their A teams to get to the joke of 40 wins as fast as possible.

    3. It's not easier progression because you need more wins and your MMR won't change so you will continue to see the exact same teams.

    4. You can play PVE whenever you want for progression. With 5 start nodes not counting in the math for progression, it's even easier than ever to hit progression. If you want placement you'd need to run optimal.

    1. You are assuming everybody goes from 0 to 900 in one go, but the reality is that only a few manage to do this, so they need shields to stay where they climbed and to go from there.

    2 & 3. For 40 wins the best strategy is to play some games, lose some games, than play some more. Because if you are at the top you will only play hard teams for a while, but if you lose games and are constantly out of top50 you will encounter easier teams. This allows & encourages to play what you like, rather then your best team all the time, because points & loses doesn't matter for progression.

    4. Not quite. I mean, yeah you can play every mission 5 times and reach max progression, but still, playing as optimal as you can ensures you more points and better overall rewards for placement, even if you won't battle at the top. And if you want to play optimal, then you have to play every mission 4 times in a row. Which many people won't like. The PvP win-based is what PvE should have been like: speed & timing doesn't matter at all.
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    Jarvind said:
    ERMAHFERGINGERD ITS TEH END OF TIEMZ

    I expect the same thing to happen that always happens:

    - Unpopular change is announced/implemented

    - Forumers lose their minds for 2-3 weeks, claims that "the whales will finally quit" are tossed about willy-nilly

    - Optional: Devs give Brigby some wishy-washy non-acknowledgement to post that basically says "we know it sucks but also we don't care"

    - One person quits and makes a big dramatic post about how the dev team is soulless and hates its customers

    - Everyone gets used to it and life continues as normal

    - Optional: That one guy that quit comes back within 6 months
    A bunch of people quit after OML nerf and never came back.

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