Changes to Event Schedule and Events *Updated (10/18/17)

tfg76

I think it would make a lot of sense to make Emergency Ordinances legacy, especially with those sets leaving standard soon. I´d even be OK with making ToA legacy, but it seems more natural as standard (being tied to the latest block).

I´ve never understood the reasoning behind PvE standard. Let people play whatever they want when it doesn´t affect others.

blacklotus

First off, i like there are more events for everyone.

Secondly, I love the fact pvp events are now only 2 days instead of 3. ToA is 2 days not 3 days as stated in the schedule, like the current one that is running now. Shorter events are a good thing. Thanks for the changes.

Finally, having more legacy events is good. If you expect us to pay us$50 for a card, give us more avenues to use them once they are rotated out of standard format. 

However, you may wish to discuss with the developer which events should be legacy and which should be standard. My view is that all PvE events should be legacy. 
As for PvP, new events tied to the latest current set should be standard, to promote the set. Events of previous sets should be switched to legacy.

As for HoR being legacy, I actually have no preference. The only problem is HoR has counterintuitive "based on luck objectives" in its nodes, especially red node with its take 15 or less damage objective while stalling to kill 3 or more enemy critters. 1 enraged inferno jet or hasted 8/x critter means a failed objective. A better objective would have been to win with x hp or more.

Overall though, I like the changes. More events for players are always good, especially if d3go wants us to continue to buy us$50 cards.

bk1234

Dave808 said:

I guess I don't really understand. Why all the hate for HoR legacy? Clearly I'm in the minority here but I think it's a great idea. I spent a lot of time and money collecting amazing legacy cards back in the day and not being able to use them in so many events is probably my biggest complaint about this game.
 If I had it my way anybody could use any cards and any decks in any event. Otherwise what's the point of spending any money in this game if you know ahead of time whatever great cards you buy or collect will just become obsolete and unusable in just a few months? That's why I have not spent a dime on this game in the last 6 months and I never will again. Can anybody explain to me why you all seem so against it? Asking honestly. 

I'm going to just talk from my standpoint and not assume everyone agrees with this. I downloaded this game the first week. I have played for a top 10 coalition since day 1. I have almost 1300 cards including 81 mythics, 3 masterpieces and 3 mehsterpieces. I never hurt for runes, crystals or unobtainium. I have been anxiously awaiting Ixalan because it is my hope that HoR would be released as a Legacy individual event. However -- I can hold up in Platinum Legacy -- my cards are so good that many of my Standard decks will hold up in Platinum Legacy. 

I manage an alliance of 11 coalitions, 3 top 10's, 3 top 25's, 3 top 50's and 2 casual coalitions. Of my 220 players, maybe only 10% have the ability to hold up to Legacy decks. 10%... This means 90% of my players will be at a direct disadvantage -- now when you look at how my coalitions break down, it is not a fairly accurate representation of the coalition base as a whole (my coalitions make up 10% of the top 100 All-time)-- so if 90% of my players are at a disadvantage, it is probably safe to assume 99% of the player base as a whole is at a disadvantage. 

If this game is going to grow and sustain for the long term, it needs to cater not to me, the 1%, but to the rest of the player base-- the game already makes it almost impossible for new players to progress at a rate that will keep them engaged. This is just another kick in the nuts to them. 

I would love for a weekly coalition event to be legacy -- I have advocated for a long time for "throwback" events so that we can get boosters from other sets (since they don't rotate in and out -- another point -- anyone who has joined the game in the last 3 months has had almost no avenue to get legacy cards). I think PvE is a great venue for Legacy -- as it gives top players more freedom and breaks the monotony and it's a great opportunity for low and mid level players to hone their deck building skills as they can get used to a level and how to build against objectives at their own pace. 

If this still doesn't make sense, I invite you to PM me for a link to our Discord community -- we are running a deckclinic for HoR legacy -- spend some time with newer and mid-level players and see how they struggle -- I will take it further by inviting you to play with one of my development coalitions, so you can see first-hand what they go through -- these players are the reason I put a considerable amount of my free time into ThePower9. They inspire me, and I will always fight to make sure that everyone who plays this game has an equal opportunity to succeed. 

Kinesia

HoR Legacy goes against the entire point of creating Standard.
It was done for a reason to ensure the games longevity.
Don't think short term. I know you are scrambling right now, but there are ways to make people happier that don't endanger the future like this does.

If this ends up being a once off experiment, then fine. But Legacy makes the most sense for _old_ events. When the sets are still in standard beginners should expect to be able to play.
They should expect to be able to buy a few packs and tweak their decks and perform better _within_ the same event.
With Legacy they cannot possibly hope to do that.

Your interest is in people playing more and getting them to buy more cards. This won't do that.

the oldtimers are going to complain about things but then stick around most of the time anyway. Whether they leave or not they have much _more_ commitment because they have sunk money and time into this already and are loathe to "waste" the investment.
But beginners need encouragement and support just to keep playing. Every event they can enter should have them feeling "Wow! I almost succeeded! I'll try again!", but here they'll hit PigLivia and go "Ugh, I have zero chance, I can't even try, enough of this lark..."


Absolutely have Legacy events targetted at the old timers, absolutely, but don't convert the standard events into that, use the old ones.

UweTellkampf

Guys, don't do this. I am talking out of the perspective from a player who has some legacy cards that even AI can utilize to make your life miserable, but also out of the perspective of a player who could face those monsters. We already have legacy events, we have TG, we have NOP etc. That is good but that is also enough. Why introduce standard and then still let legacy get so much play? What is the true reasoning behind this move? Do you just want people to hurt more in events, thus getting smaller awards, thus (in your logic) being inclined to spend more? That is flawed thinking. Frustration want cause more spending, fun will. Instead of changing something as fundamental, give us more content. Give us reasons to grind, to invest, to communicate. 

Ohboy

Dave808 said:

I guess I don't really understand. Why all the hate for HoR legacy? Clearly I'm in the minority here but I think it's a great idea. I spent a lot of time and money collecting amazing legacy cards back in the day and not being able to use them in so many events is probably my biggest complaint about this game.
 If I had it my way anybody could use any cards and any decks in any event. Otherwise what's the point of spending any money in this game if you know ahead of time whatever great cards you buy or collect will just become obsolete and unusable in just a few months? That's why I have not spent a dime on this game in the last 6 months and I never will again. Can anybody explain to me why you all seem so against it? Asking honestly. 

It's not so much hate of legacy hor as it is disappointing to see the game take a step backwards. The game in general already progresses forward at a snail's pace, and this is a step backwards. 

Your concerns are not unique or controversial really. They were voiced before when standard came about.

The thing is, youur old cards would become obsolete anyway without standard, because of runaway power creep. How many of your origin chase mythics do you still consider competitive? BfZ? Consider this. How are they going to convince people to buy new cards if the new cards can't compete with the old ones? This leads to power creep, which we famously know led to deploy pig, and then Olivia to trump that. How are you going to top those? Oh right. Baral.

With standard, it allows them to print cards that are competitive yet doesn't have to compete with all the cards that came before it. It's the only sustainable way to keep printing cards and not have their power levels end up like dragonballz characters.

Kld was known as a weaker expansion following Soi, precisely because it didn't have to try to beat the Soi powerful hitters. But because it was protected by standard, these "weak" mythics found a spot as chase cards. Even within standard, you can see the expansions that followed it in standard have not been immune to power creep. It is the nature of competition, and why Kld must leave standard soon.

The way wins are easy to come by at the higher levels guarantee that top players will not be spending to try to get ahead of the competition. Past a certain threshold, you're buying cards for the sake of collections or just to be the early users. "chase cards" will be attractive disproportionately to the lower tier players for their power levels, and they need to deliver. Can you imagine the card that would trump baral? How about the card that trumps that?   Because baral was 2 expansions ago.

It's not that legacy events are innately bad. Everyone wants to let their hair down and curb stomp at full power once in a while. No one would object to having a few more legacy events. The problem is they're doing this to the one event that should be standard. It's the introductory event to the new expansion. It's the most newbie friendly one. If there is one single event in the entire game that needs to be protected from legacy cards, it's this one.

Take emo. Take firf. I think people would rejoice more than protest. Hell, make it alternate weeks of legacy and standard and it would probably be fine. But hor is the absolute center of Standard play. To take it away permanently is to completely miss the point of Standard. 

Sirchombli

@Dave808 see the comment @bken1234 left. The "elite" are the minority at this point. Alienating 80% of the player base to cater to the ogs is not a good move. Especially in an event where there are kill x and take x or less objectives. It's going to literally slaughter newer players. Making pve events legacy would be a solid move. Playing our old stuff is fun, but only for those of us that have cool old stuff to play. I understand that you are in the sunk cost camp, but most players aren't at this point. I'll do fine either way, but I would prefer that the event stay standard. 

Dave808

Interesting. Thanks for the detailed explanations guys (and girls). I get your point of view now, makes sense. I'm still not so thrilled to have to pander to noobs just so they can compete, but I get what you're saying. 
Maybe I'm being too selfish here but I figure if I can grind it out and spend money on the game to get killer cards and build killer decks, so can anyone else. It just rubs me the wrong way knowing that we dedicated og's who have spent tons of time and money on this game have to be handicapped just so noobs can compete. It feels like pandering and hand holding. 
When I was new to the game I couldn't compete with the og's of that era either but I didn't complain or want the game to hold my hand and protect me from them. Instead it motivated me even more to "git gud" and beat them someday. I did that my investing lots of time grinding, learning game mechanics, learning card/deck synergy, and occasionally spending money to shortcut some of that time grinding. I don't see why noobs today can't do the same thing. 
I'm currently sitting at 1980 points in return of the god Pharaoh event so I can handle standard or legacy, but I sure do love my piglivia.

Ohboy

Think of it this way.

Without new players the game dies. When the game dies, you can't use your cards either. It's not an "us vs them" thing. We need the new players more than they need us.

If pandering is what it takes, it's a small price to pay. You had a shorter cliff to climb to "git gud". Every expansion adds more height to it. Standard is the game's way of shaving away some of the barrier to entry. 

Dave808

Ohboy said:

Think of it this way.

Without new players the game dies. When the game dies, you can't use your cards either. It's not an "us vs them" thing. We need the new players more than they need us.

If pandering is what it takes, it's a small price to pay. You had a shorter cliff to climb to "git gud". Every expansion adds more height to it. Standard is the game's way of shaving away some of the barrier to entry. 

Excellent explanation. Makes perfect sense. Sigh... I guess you're right. 

HypnoticSpecter

Agree that HoR legacy is bad.

For RoGP, could you just rotate it with Hour of Devastation and Trial of Strength? Those were fun weekend events that felt less grindy. This would also give more motivation to buy new PWs.

tfg76

It´s also important to remember that the prizes were better "back in the day", meaning people had a lot more access to mythics than they do today.

Also, I resent the talk about "noobs" here. The rampant access to SOI/OGW/ORI mythics were during a very short time span (not sure exactly, but less than 1 year). Basing a whole format on the people that were active during that short time seems unfair and boring.

That being said, the cycling decks of today are better than anything legacy can offer, so it´s not that hard to win, it´s just that the objectives are very unsuited to legacy play. In say, Terrors in the Shadows, this is not a problem.

Just a thought: How do people feel about legacy with banned lists (i.e. Pig, Olivia, New Perspectives, Drake Haven, BTB, SA++)?

Dropspot

tfg76 said:

It´s also important to remember that the prizes were better "back in the day", meaning people had a lot more access to mythics than they do today.

Also, I resent the talk about "noobs" here. The rampant access to SOI/OGW/ORI mythics were during a very short time span (not sure exactly, but less than 1 year). Basing a whole format on the people that were active during that short time seems unfair and boring.

That being said, the cycling decks of today are better than anything legacy can offer, so it´s not that hard to win, it´s just that the objectives are very unsuited to legacy play. In say, Terrors in the Shadows, this is not a problem.

Just a thought: How do people feel about legacy with banned lists (i.e. Pig, Olivia, New Perspectives, Drake Haven, BTB, SA++)?

That's true. I play this game for almost a year. I have been top player from the start have gathered a decent collection of more than 1150 cards. I am certainly not a noob and I don't have most of the Mythics needed to make a legacy deck like the ones I will be facing. 

I will probably going to win anyway, Greg always help us and cycle is still super OP. But this is definitely a step back in game design.

I am not totally against legacy. Pve could be legacy, we could have some individual events in legacy. But we should not have coalition legacy PvP, this will impact the capacity of newer players to compete.

Rasalghul

As HoR will become legacy, are we going to be able to buy boosters from legacy blocks too ? 

If if it is not possible, I don't know why it is going Legacy.

tfg76

Most likely they will just let this be, and let the new Ixalan event be Standard. Why they had to change this preemptively I don´t know. 

If the policy was "the PvP-event belonging to the newest set is coalition and standard, the rest is legacy", I would actually be fine with that. Just make sure the coalition PvP events are standard so everyone can compete and make progress in the game.

That being said, I love the trend of having many events to choose from for single-player. Let´s have:

- Standard ToTP and Training Grounds
- Old legacy events (**** etc)

All in one week!

I´d also like to see a standard planeswalker-based event every other weekend (alternating with "Return of the Grind-Phest" or the Ixalan equivalent), even if there isn´t a new planeswalker (just use an old one that´s in the store!).

PhoenixRisen

@Brigby
If max score in RotGP is going to be 2160 as with this most recent incarnation (due to discouraged players dropping for numerous reasons), those who play the entire thing need to be rewarded for doing so! Setting max progression at 750 is an absolute joke! The basic booster as a "reward" is like a personal stab to each player, too. If HoR is headed to legacy, something of which I strongly disagree, there needs to be more opportunity for newer players to obtain legacy cards! Suggestion: This could be accomplished inside the RotGP event, if packs from legacy sets were awarded past the original 750 progression measurement.

It's great that changes are being made and I think(?) the new team is listening, but some of these changes are atrocious. We will need longer availability of legacy card sets in the vault, more legacy card rewards, and more legacy pack rewards. Newer players won't stand a chance against a single Pig, Drowner, Olivia, or even, Gaea (non-legacy), and this is especially so if red nodes continue to carry these ridiculous damage objectives. HoR to legacy? JUST NO! Especially if it's going to remain a coalition event until Ixalan gets ported in.

Thésée

PhoenixRisen said:

@Brigby
If max score in RotGP is going to be 2160 as with this most recent incarnation (due to discouraged players dropping for numerous reasons), those who play the entire thing need to be rewarded for doing so! Setting max progression at 750 is an absolute joke! The basic booster as a "reward" is like a personal stab to each player, too. If HoR is headed to legacy, something of which I strongly disagree, there needs to be more opportunity for newer players to obtain legacy cards! Suggestion: This could be accomplished inside the RotGP event, if packs from legacy sets were awarded past the original 750 progression measurement.

Max score next week is going to be even higher. Who is going to be the first player to score 2300 in a PVE event ? Receiving more rewards would not make playing so many games enjoyable

- Please reduce drastically boss health. I don't know, cut it in half. Really

- Please reduce max progression (with the same rewards) so that it doesn't penalize new players. Same. cut it in half. Frankly that's not a price too high, D3.

UweTellkampf

@Brigby, are you guys listening? There is (almost) no one here who seems to like the proposed HoR change. Don’t alienate us even more. We are tired and wary and the frustration is growing up to the point where more and more hardcore players are leaving. This change is just so uncalled for. There are threads over threads of actual suggestions what needs to be done from our perspective, making HoR legacy no one ever proposed. I am certainly aware that the player base can’t just make proposals which you would immediately implement, but there are some decisions you should overthink when facing such a massive negativity. 

[Deleted User]

I'd like less "standard" events because it always seems to just translate to "Use vehicles and energise stuff".
I would definitely enjoy more PVE events.
*also* why the heck is there nothing happening on the weekends!?

madwren

Dave808 said:

Ohboy said:

Think of it this way.

Without new players the game dies. When the game dies, you can't use your cards either. It's not an "us vs them" thing. We need the new players more than they need us.

If pandering is what it takes, it's a small price to pay. You had a shorter cliff to climb to "git gud". Every expansion adds more height to it. Standard is the game's way of shaving away some of the barrier to entry. 

Excellent explanation. Makes perfect sense. Sigh... I guess you're right. 

It should also be pointed out that the move to Standard was somewhat inevitable. MTGPQ is, strangely enough, going through the same growing pains and learning the same lessons that MTG did so many years ago. To some extent it's amazing they had to learn these at all, as you would have thought Wizards would have given design input. 

There are two things that absolutely need to be done to ensure a game's longevity: 1) make the game accessible for newer players, and 2) provide ongoing, stimulating content for veteran players.  The reason we've seen such attrition over the last six months is because they managed to fail at both.

Standard, however, was not to blame. I suggest reading this if you want a deeper answer:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/setting-standard-2012-08-06

One of the challenges with MTGPQ is that we only have 10 cards in a deck, and we can't control the number of copies of them. 10x4 is what we're stuck with. Thus, we have an even smaller number of viable cards than Magic, where you can put in one-offs and niche cards and truly build and tweak a deck to your satisfaction. In PQ, the window of viability is much smaller.