Rogue reduces damage for all team members. Protect tiles greatly increase the reduction somehow.

D4Ni13

So I played against Rogue in the Simulator last night, and I've seen that she took less damage than 50% from direct tile matches. I suspected that she reduces damage for herself also, not only her allies. So I decided to make some more tests and see what happens. 

Note! When fighting her you can see 2 damage numbers: one above the tiles matched which is the total damage made, and one near her health which is the reduced damage made to her. 

Initial Data: 

My team: Mistique, Gamora (boosted), Rocket & Groot(boosted). 

Initial strike tiles: 553 

Enemy team: Rogue, Jean, Gambit

Rogue's yellow (4 covers): reduce 20% power and tile damage for each teammate.

First test: yellow match 

5 strikes + yellow match = 5 * 553 + 145 * 3 = 2765 + 435 = 3200

3200 * 0.4 = 1280 

So Rogue reduced 60% of the damage! (not 40% how the label says).

Other similar tests: 

3098 * 0.4 = 1239 

1048 * 0.4 = 419

First conclusion: Rogue reduced 60% from total damage, regardless if there was strike tile damage added or not. 

I didn't thought to test protect tiles, but luckily I had one protect tile on the board at some point, and the results are even more intriguing.

Second test: blue match with 173 enemy shield

blue match - enemy shield = 165 * 3 - 173 = 322

322 * 0.4 = 128.8

But the number shown is 25

25/322*100 = 7.76 => So Rogue took only 8% damage (92% reduction). How is this possible ? What is the formula for reducing damage when there are enemy protect tiles on the board ? 

Took another shot and got another similar result

Second Conclusion: Enemy protect tiles increase the reduction of damage against Rogue greatly, but don't understand what is the formula behind it. 

I than proceed to play with Rogue against other teams and see what damage I can reduce when she is in my team. 

My Rogue is 1/2/2 and has 15% reduce damage for every teammate. 

The only active player in the enemy team si Magneto. 

This are his numbers: 

Third test: Friendly Rogue

Expectation: reduce 45% of the damage

84/152*100 =  55.26% damage taken => 44.74% damage reduced

26/48*100 = 54.16% damage taken => 45.84% damage reduced

41/75*100 = 54.66% damage taken => 45.34% damage reduced

Third Conclusion: The difference is made by the rounding of numbers we see in the interface. 152 may have been in fact 152.4 or 152.2 so those decimals are screwing the percentage a bit, but overall we can see that she indeed reduces the damage with 45%. 

I then proceed to the final test, and see what happens when I got a friendly shield along with Rogue. 

Friendly protect tile: 49 

Rogue: 15% reduce damage for every teammate. 

41/115*100 = 35.65% damage taken => 64.34% damage reduced 

44/121*100 = 36.36% damage taken => 63.63% damage reduced

Final conclusions: 

Rogue reduces the damage for every member of the team (including herself). So at 5 yellow covers she would effectively reduce 75% of the power & tile damage taken by her if she is in front. 

Adding protect tiles to the mix, will increase the reduction. I don't know what formula is used behind, but the results indicate that it may use the protect value more than once in the calculations, and higher the protect tile, higher the reduction. I don't know if this is intended or not. The formula (as mentioned by @mrcheddar ) reduces the damage first and then take the protect tiles into account, resulting in a pretty low damage taken by Rogue. 

@Brigby can you please pass this to the devs so we get an official response if this protect tiles with Rogue is something intended (as they reduce the damage even further, after it was already reduced by Rogue's passive) ? 

mrcheddar

The formula when protect tiles out is:

(Initial Damage * Reduction) - Protect Tile Strength = Total Damage Dealt.

From your first example with protect tiles:

((165 * 3) * 0.4) - 173 = 25

So the protect tile reduction is done AFTER the damage to Rogue is calculated. If this is intended, then it makes protect tiles used with Rogue a *lot* stronger.

D4Ni13

mrcheddar said:

The formula when protect tiles out is:

(Initial Damage * Reduction) - Protect Tile Strength = Total Damage Dealt.

From your first example with protect tiles:

((165 * 3) * 0.4) - 173 = 25

So the protect tile reduction is done AFTER the damage to Rogue is calculated. If this is intended, then it makes protect tiles used with Rogue a *lot* stronger.

Ah ok. Good to know. 
So the protect tiles help Rogue a lot. Because she already reduces the damage before they even count. 

Rogue & C4ge for the win. 

SkadenFrudee

Hmm, can all that extra protection be avoided by simply moving Rogue to the middle/back before attacking? Or does the AI consider her at the front until one of its other characters makes a match regardless of who you attack? 

D4Ni13

SkadenFrudee said:

Hmm, can all that extra protection be avoided by simply moving Rogue to the middle/back before attacking? Or does the AI consider her at the front until one of its other characters makes a match regardless of who you attack? 

You can manually move someone in front and you would avoid this, but if you match any of her colors then she will jump in front before the damage happens so it would reduce the damage made. 

Quebbster

SkadenFrudee said:

Hmm, can all that extra protection be avoided by simply moving Rogue to the middle/back before attacking? Or does the AI consider her at the front until one of its other characters makes a match regardless of who you attack? 

You can bypass the protection by attacking one of Rogue's teammates, yes. But if you match red, green or yellow Rogue will automatically move to the front and take the hit, so if you want to take out her friends you need to do it with black, Purple, blue or teamup matches.

SkadenFrudee

I asked because she was still knocking off huge amounts of damage even when I was trying to hit Jean. My Gamora red hits for 11k, but Teen Jean only took roughly 4400 points of damage. I wondered if I was bugging or she was just bugged. No tile matching, my turn started and I dropped the nuke. 

D4Ni13

SkadenFrudee said:

I asked because she was still knocking off huge amounts of damage even when I was trying to hit Jean. My Gamora red hits for 11k, but Teen Jean only took roughly 4400 points of damage. I wondered if I was bugging or she was just bugged. No tile matching, my turn started and I dropped the nuke. 

Hmm. So your turn started and Rogue was in front and you switched to Jean and dealt the power, and it was reduced, although you targeted Jean ? 

I don't know how powers work with her. I've assumed she has to be in front to reduce the damage, but then again, the AI cannot switch which member to hit like we can, so if it is like I asked above, maybe it still considers that Rogue was in front since she was there at the end of AI's turn ? Although, I think Colossus and other heroes with similar mechanic, don't work this way. 

Can you make another test and maybe add a screen or something ?

Rick_OShay

If Colossus or Thanos has their yellow or green CD out respectively, they will hop back in front when you fire a power. Certainly too often I've switched Thanos to the back so I could fire a power at a weaker enemy, and guess what, he moves in front to laugh at my ability vs his huge health. 
Now, Rogue has no active CD to deal with, but I would assume as well that if she was in-front before moving her, she will still be considered to front-run the damage reduction against powers.

D4Ni13

Rick OShay said:

If Colossus or Thanos has their yellow or green CD out respectively, they will hop back in front when you fire a power. Certainly too often I've switched Thanos to the back so I could fire a power at a weaker enemy, and guess what, he moves in front to laugh at my ability vs his huge health. 
Now, Rogue has no active CD to deal with, but I would assume as well that if she was in-front before moving her, she will still be considered to front-run the damage reduction against powers.

I guess this is the best answer for this inquiry so far. It makes sense to be that way after you reminded me about how Colossus & Thanos actually tank. Surely it must be a consistence somewhere, and I guess this is it.

Punisher5784

@D4Ni13 you did more testing for Rogue than the devs do for the game in general 

Brigby

D4Ni13 said:

-snipped long analysis-

Final conclusions: 

Rogue reduces the damage for every member of the team (including herself). So at 5 yellow covers she would effectively reduce 75% of the power & tile damage taken by her if she is in front. 

Adding protect tiles to the mix, will increase the reduction. I don't know what formula is used behind, but the results indicate that it may use the protect value more than once in the calculations, and higher the protect tile, higher the reduction. I don't know if this is intended or not. The formula (as mentioned by @mrcheddar ) reduces the damage first and then take the protect tiles into account, resulting in a pretty low damage taken by Rogue. 

Brigby can you please pass this to the devs so we get an official response if this protect tiles with Rogue is something intended (as they reduce the damage even further, after it was already reduced by Rogue's passive) ? 

Hi @D4Ni13. Yes, it is intended for Rogue to count herself as one of the teammates.

When it comes to how Protect tiles factor into overall damage reduction, I've passed this question along to the developers, and I will update everyone when they respond back.

Anon

Yeah I found this out the hard way today. Didn't help that she used her Green on Blade and I didn't have IM40 or Gambit...

Jaedenkaal

Punisher5784 said:

@D4Ni13 you did more testing for Rogue than the devs do for the game in general 

Well that's just not helpful.

In any case, this is a wording issue vs a coding issue. It's probably more a symptom of MPQs less-than-perfect ability templating that causes us to mistrust in-game effects. 

Since this appears to be a relatively rare occurence of an ally-counting power that also counts the user (are there any, other than burst healing?), the description could reasonably be expected to explicitly mention this. In my opinion, of course.

D4Ni13

Brigby said:

Hi @D4Ni13. Yes, it is intended for Rogue to count herself as one of the teammates.

When it comes to how Protect tiles factor into overall damage reduction, I've passed this question along to the developers, and I will update everyone when they respond back.

Thanks @Brigby

Jarvind

Brigby said:

D4Ni13 said:

-snipped long analysis-

Final conclusions: 

Rogue reduces the damage for every member of the team (including herself). So at 5 yellow covers she would effectively reduce 75% of the power & tile damage taken by her if she is in front. 

Adding protect tiles to the mix, will increase the reduction. I don't know what formula is used behind, but the results indicate that it may use the protect value more than once in the calculations, and higher the protect tile, higher the reduction. I don't know if this is intended or not. The formula (as mentioned by @mrcheddar ) reduces the damage first and then take the protect tiles into account, resulting in a pretty low damage taken by Rogue. 

Brigby can you please pass this to the devs so we get an official response if this protect tiles with Rogue is something intended (as they reduce the damage even further, after it was already reduced by Rogue's passive) ? 

Hi @D4Ni13. Yes, it is intended for Rogue to count herself as one of the teammates.

When it comes to how Protect tiles factor into overall damage reduction, I've passed this question along to the developers, and I will update everyone when they respond back.

Buuuhhhh? So she will always take at least 20% reduced damage when in front? That makes her even more cray cray than I had initially believed.

ErikPeter

She is a very strong tank. But you can stun her.
Allies taking less damage sounds like a bug. I'd try to recreate it then report it. (Or maybe Gamora wasn't boosted and you're used to it and didn't notice?)

clay_peterson

If you're fighting Thanos/Colossus/Rogue, and Thanos has his green CD out, and Colossus has his yellow CD out, and you make a red/yellow/green match... what happens then?

Rick_OShay

There was a patch note saying that largest health character would go up front if it has to decide between multiple powers that send someone to the front.

jtsings

   I'm not sure what her cap is for her percent from taking away damage but my Dr. Strange 3* states, in it's non boosted yellow (level 192), gives 1820 damage when someone on the other team fires a power.  However, on the 1st and 3rd day of the shield simulator event, with Mystique, I'm pretty sure she was only taking damage in the 700's, when she was in front.  I really didn't take a look at her description of percentage of reduced damage, but I just thought she took greater than 60% off the damage when she was in front.  And that was without protect tiles out too.  I imagine that's the reason everyone was having such trouble with this event in my bracket.

Anon

Can you imagine Rogue with 4Cage and Strange/Star-Lord?

*shudders*