Level 20-30 Samuts (and the opponent level exploit)

Ohboy

Once again let's be very clear. Some people have the data to exploit it. Others run a very - EV gamble.

The average player is unable to actually exploit it without giving up tons of equity. 

Corn_Noodles

I think exploits should be fully published to shame the developers into fixing them.

TheDragonHermit

Please calm down, exploits will always exist in a game that has this many moving parts. And wherever there are exploits there will be people who use them to get ahead and people who don't out of principal. It isn't like there is just one way to play a game, and none of them can really be considered right or wrong. Now if you will excuse me, I am trying to wrongwarp to Gannon.

Skiglass6

Corn Noodles said:

I think exploits should be fully published to shame the developers into fixing them.

Totally agree. But as we have seen before, they are never shamed enough to close them immediately. Flood Waters exploit is a good example. 

shteev

TheDragonHermit said:

Please calm down, exploits will always exist in a game that has this many moving parts. And wherever there are exploits there will be people who use them to get ahead and people who don't out of principal. It isn't like there is just one way to play a game, and none of them can really be considered right or wrong.

Well, sometimes that's true, and sometimes it isn't.

We've talked about the new brackets opening up, for example. Some people don't consider it an exploit to wait for the second bracket, some people don't consider it an exploit to wait for the final bracket (me, I was not pleased when [redacted] won Rishkar's Expertise by doing this!). Even if we did consider this a serious exploit, how would we fix it? Shift people around in brackets that they have already joined? Guess how many brackets are going to open up from the start of the event and divide players evenly between them? I can't think of a watertight solution off the top of my head, and I reckon that even if I was to sit down and think hard about a 'solution' to this 'problem', it would proably contain the type of flaw that I myself so enjoy ribaldly jibing the dev team about on this very forum.

The PW level exploit is a more cut and dry case. It seems to me like the intention of the code as it stands is to pit level 1 PWs against level 1 PWs and lvl 60s against lvl 60s. Selecting an opponent based on the level of the curent PW selected, rather than the last one, is a very easy fix. Anyone see any unforseen problems with that? I mean, you could select an opponent, and then level up your planeswalker for an easier game... but.. you can already do that now.

Emanon2000

From what I recall... They changed to this matching version because people were playing their nodes and then leaving troll decks for others to face that weren't objective based.  This was a whole different issue/exploit that was experienced.  They changed the system so that people would face the last deck(s) played and not ones simply left to mess everyone up...

I'm Platinum and have all PW's at 60...  Though it frustrates me to see people take advantage of this matching setup... I personally don't have time to figure out all of the nuances of matching etc...  

Personally, I am more frustrated by those that have New Perspectives and I can't seem to get the card.  I PAID for Baral and this very feature yet it got Nerffed and those that have NP can sail through most games by simply cycling.

My second major issue is being bounced out of 1 or 2 reward tiers when the App locks up or crashes.  I seem to hit at least 1 crash every round... 7 points is HUGE when trying to reach the top...

I find the NP decks are a bigger issue in people winning than some of the other items brought up.

As for waiting and timing the other bracket(s)... Hopefully there will be a resolution some day to this... until then if you have the time to calculate this and get lucky... well ... you go...  


Everything here is MOOT until we actually see something happen or change.  We've been told there is a (new) developer but everything so far points in the opposite direction.  There is nothing to get worked up about or discuss further until we see something significantly change and not just the BARELY maintenance/upkeep that we have seen recently.


I still play because I like the game.  My hopes are that it continues.  ... Those hopes are waning.

shteev

Emanon2000 said:

From what I recall... They changed to this matching version because people were playing their nodes and then leaving troll decks for others to face that weren't objective based.  This was a whole different issue/exploit that was experienced.  They changed the system so that people would face the last deck(s) played and not ones simply left to mess everyone up...

I'm not sure that's right. They made it so you had to play your deck once for it to be registered as a possible opponent that others could play against... that was to stop people reconfiguring their decks as troll decks. But that's a different issue to when a player enters a node and an opponent is picked for them from a pool of possible opponents.

TheDragonHermit

One solution to bracket issues is make leaderboard rewards percentile based rather than raw score.

Ohboy

shteev said:

TheDragonHermit said:

Please calm down, exploits will always exist in a game that has this many moving parts. And wherever there are exploits there will be people who use them to get ahead and people who don't out of principal. It isn't like there is just one way to play a game, and none of them can really be considered right or wrong.

Well, sometimes that's true, and sometimes it isn't.

We've talked about the new brackets opening up, for example. Some people don't consider it an exploit to wait for the second bracket, some people don't consider it an exploit to wait for the final bracket (me, I was not pleased when [redacted] won Rishkar's Expertise by doing this!). Even if we did consider this a serious exploit, how would we fix it? Shift people around in brackets that they have already joined? Guess how many brackets are going to open up from the start of the event and divide players evenly between them? I can't think of a watertight solution off the top of my head, and I reckon that even if I was to sit down and think hard about a 'solution' to this 'problem', it would proably contain the type of flaw that I myself so enjoy ribaldly jibing the dev team about on this very forum.

The PW level exploit is a more cut and dry case. It seems to me like the intention of the code as it stands is to pit level 1 PWs against level 1 PWs and lvl 60s against lvl 60s. Selecting an opponent based on the level of the curent PW selected, rather than the last one, is a very easy fix. Anyone see any unforseen problems with that? I mean, you could select an opponent, and then level up your planeswalker for an easier game... but.. you can already do that now.

Time based exploits wouldn't be exploits if no one could tell a new bracket started. The problem is that some people can, once your circle of friends playing the game grows large enough. It's an overhyped exploit though, because really only those with such a criteria can do it reliably, and it's obvious not many are attempting it just by looking at the way people join events. Furthermore, even with perfect information there's a certain chance of failure if a last minute bracket doesn't open. Failing to do it properly leaves so much equity on the table it's a horrible idea to gamble. I'm not sure any hard-core players would attempt to do it even with information during key events. I certainly wouldn't. Is an exploit that returns negative equity still an exploit? 

My suggestion? Just divide the tier population into random brackets at the start. 

The plane walker level mismatch is definitely a bug and fully exploitable. One should not promoting such behavior. I'm not sure why this is even a debate. Just the fact that you keep insisting on promoting it I think means brigby will shut this thread down soon. We've been through here before. You can't have forgotten. No promoting exploits in the forums. 

hawkyh1

my thoughts is that exploiting the matchmaking and
exploiting the new bracket opening are two different
levels of exploitation.

the matchmaking exploit that allows for matching a
players level 60 versus an ai level 30 is guaranteed
to work(if done correctly). it also means you have
both a level 30 and a level 60 planeswalker. more
than one level 60 planeswalker is required to fully
exploit the method. multiple level 60's and one level
30 means in many cases that you can't have been
that hard pressed on runes at some point. it's an
exploit that seasoned players use.
by comparison the bracket exploit is less than
guaranteed. it takes some flexibility in time
management and newer players sometimes stumble
into it by accident. it's an exploit for newer or borderline
players. if you can reliably win battles then why would
you care? (especially as the rewards are now flatter
at the top)

I used to use the bracket exploit in quick battles cos
I could win battles but wanted a chance at a rare
that took hours to play for and not days. as such I'm a
little biased.

HH

shteev

Ohboy said:

We've been through here before. You can't have forgotten. No promoting exploits in the forums. 

Citation needed. Maybe you can even find one, too, but I'm really bored of you constantly not bothering to find your sources, so if you want to talk about it, go find out where it was. It's certainly not in the forum rules.

Here's some evidence to the contrary, to spur you on to prove me wrong:

Octal9 posted that information about how to control the levels of planeswalkers that you referenced earlier in this thread, and THAT thread didn't get shut down. Probably... I can't remember, and I can't be bothered to go find it.

Also, when we figured out that Devour in Flames was crashing the game, we posted information about that, and THAT thread didn't get closed down, in fact, we were praised for finding the exploit. [can't be bothered to citate]

I started a poll in March explaining how keeping your PWs at low levels gave you easy matches (back then, I didn't know exactly how that exploit worked). THAT thread didn't get closed down [Citosity is frankly too much effort, even tho I found the thread yesterday]

Probably loads of other evidence, too. [Citation unneccesary]


YOU say it's definitely a bug, but it might be entirely intentional piece if coding with an unfortunate side effect. The dev team pretend that that's true about code that is clearly bugged all the time. The AI shoots it's own creatures with Skywhaler's Snot, and I'd say that's a bug, but in the past, you've said that similar instances of AI misbehaviour are not worth fixing because they're a bottomless hole of coding work [citation needed] in much the same way that someone in this very thread expressed the opinion that there will always be exploits so we probably just shouldn't talk about them [citation needed... even tho it's literally on the same page as this post. Christ I'm lazy today.]


You're doing that thing again where you put on an authoritative voice and claim that I've definitely broken the forum rules in the hope that Brigby will read it, not know his own rules very well, believe you and take some kind of kneejerk action. You've done it before. [Weirdly, I was actually going to find that thread and mention all the details in it casually and then pretend that I hadn't bothered to do my research and claim a citation was needed, but I can't remember what it was about. Something about customer support, I think, did it it come up when they instigated the new rules to delete customer support emails from the forums? Whatever. ]

The thing is, tho, that Brigby dislikes you almost as much as he dislikes me, so he'll just chalk it up to our singular brand of knockabout humor. Or, maybe just ban us both. Let's see.

Ohboy

And you're doing that thing where you pretend to have complete memory loss. I don't cite what I trust you remember. 

Heres the last time you did this. It really wasn't even that long ago. Brigby warned you off twice. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/652852#Comment_652852


And here, I can't tell if you self censored because you clearly knew, or brigby censored it for you. But clearly you were informed that this stuff shouldn't be here. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/652588#Comment_652588

Remember. I'm not a reporter getting a story to shame you. Everytime I refer to a past incident, it's as a reminder.  I dig up your history only because you insist I do. This **** is childish and distasteful to me and I wish you'll stop asking me to do that to you. 

For the record, I've never said bugs shouldn't be fixed. But there should be a triage. Killing your own creatures tops no one's list of top bugs to fix. 

babar3355

Although I am rather enjoying a classic Shteev vs. Ohboy fightclub moment, this issue is as resolved as it could possibly be at this point.  Brigby commented on a poll that I put up during the Elspeth event:

@Brigby said: "Hi everyone. I just wanted to let you all know that this matchmaking issue was something the Hibernum was working on fixing, so I will be sure to inform the new team of the progress they had made prior"

And also: "Hibernum actually anticipated finishing and implementing the fix last week, however as you can imagine, there were some unfortunate occurrences that prevented its development from concluding. "

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/67092/elspeth-event-leveling-issues/p1

Considering the moderators didn't remove the steps to remove the "exploit", we can assume that its not against forum rules to discuss.

As an aside, I don't consider it an exploit to wait on a second or third bracket.  I do think its a silly methodology and I think that Ohboy's suggestion to randomly assign all platinum players is perhaps a more fair way to run the system.  However, it's not true that we are able to constantly or reliably join a second bracket just because we have a "plus sized" coalition and a big network.  How would we decide who are the platinum level lab monkeys who have to jump in to check things out?  Sometimes someone randomly joins and announces a new bracket, but I don't know anyone who just waits around until they hear something.  Although I agree with Shteev that it's annoying to know people get the best card in the game by scoring 50 points in an hour while most of us duked it out for 3 days, They made a calculated gamble that paid off for them.  It could have gone very poorly instead.

Ohboy

babar3355 said:

Although I am rather enjoying a classic Shteev vs. Ohboy fightclub moment, this issue is as resolved as it could possibly be at this point.  Brigby commented on a poll that I put up during the Elspeth event:

@Brigby said: "Hi everyone. I just wanted to let you all know that this matchmaking issue was something the Hibernum was working on fixing, so I will be sure to inform the new team of the progress they had made prior"

And also: "Hibernum actually anticipated finishing and implementing the fix last week, however as you can imagine, there were some unfortunate occurrences that prevented its development from concluding. "

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/67092/elspeth-event-leveling-issues/p1

Considering the moderators didn't remove the steps to remove the "exploit", we can assume that its not against forum rules to discuss.

As an aside, I don't consider it an exploit to wait on a second or third bracket.  I do think its a silly methodology and I think that Ohboy's suggestion to randomly assign all platinum players is perhaps a more fair way to run the system.  However, it's not true that we are able to constantly or reliably join a second bracket just because we have a "plus sized" coalition and a big network.  How would we decide who are the platinum level lab monkeys who have to jump in to check things out?  Sometimes someone randomly joins and announces a new bracket, but I don't know anyone who just waits around until they hear something.  Although I agree with Shteev that it's annoying to know people get the best card in the game by scoring 50 points in an hour while most of us duked it out for 3 days, They made a calculated gamble that paid off for them.  It could have gone very poorly instead.

Just want to clarify that I never said you could reliably zero in on when a new bracket forms. In fact I believe I said it would take a lot of resources to pull it off, and even then unreliably. Resources requiring a very large group of people. 

babar3355

Ohboy said:

 Besides, if you'd put some thought into it you would have realised that unlike you, I do not have a "plus sized" coalition-alliance/whateveryoucallit collating data to see when a bracket flips.

I do see that you clarified your view, but was responding to this comment.   We aren't doing this nor is anyone I am aware of.

shteev

Ohboy said:

And you're doing that thing where you pretend to have complete memory loss. I don't cite what I trust you remember. 

Heres the last time you did this. It really wasn't even that long ago. Brigby warned you off twice. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/652852#Comment_652852


And here, I can't tell if you self censored because you clearly knew, or brigby censored it for you. But clearly you were informed that this stuff shouldn't be here. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/652588#Comment_652588

And now you're conflating cheating and exploiting, are you. I see.

Ohboy said:

I dig up your history only because you insist I do. This tinykitty is childish and distasteful to me and I wish you'll stop asking me to do that to you.

I bet you do.

Sarahschmara

I'll never understand why making friends in game and sharing information to set everyone up for success is considered a bad thing @Ohboy

No, we don't have people reporting back on when the brackets are full (not since QB, anyway); we join when we can and win as many ribbons as we can. 

Yes, we have a clear explanation of how matchmaking works available. This is important information for people that any afford to level every new PW to 60 immediately. However, it does take effort to do correctly and I can't be bothered with it.

Yes, we have a lot more than 20 active players and we rearrange our teams weekly based on how much everyone actually wants to play. 

This is is a social game and it's a bit unfair to constantly gripe that those who've found more success making friends are also earning more rewarding prizes. 

shteev

babar3355 said:

They made a calculated gamble that paid off for them.  It could have gone very poorly instead.

That's not necessarily true. They may have been unable to join the event early, because they couldn't afford the necessary PWs, or were on holiday, and they are rewarded for that fact by being given a chance at huge prizes.

James13

Sarahschmara said:

I'll never understand why making friends in game and sharing information to set everyone up for success is considered a bad thing @Ohboy

Now this is a little ridiculous.  He responded to an accusation of intentionally monitoring brackets and entering on refresh and now it's being willfully spun/interpreted as something ludicrous.  Distasteful.

Sarahschmara

James13 said:

Sarahschmara said:

I'll never understand why making friends in game and sharing information to set everyone up for success is considered a bad thing @Ohboy

Now this is a little ridiculous.  He responded to an accusation of intentionally monitoring brackets and entering on refresh and now it's being willfully spun/interpreted as something ludicrous.  Distasteful.

@James13  you've been around long enough to recognize that it's all variations on a recurring theme; other people have more successful coalitions and have "unfair" advantages because of it.

Except it's not unfair and he does not get the right to decide which exploits are "cheating" and which are acceptable based on whether or not he uses them himself. By claiming some sort of non-existent moral superiority because one uses one exploit but not another is absolutely "disgusting."