Where do all-mook opponents get their AP?

Tseb

If mooks don't match tiles, how do they generate AP?

(Yeah, I tried searching the forum for this and found nothing)

justplainchips

They just generate AP in their power colors automatically every turn.

I'm not quite sure how the amount that is generated is determined.

jamesh

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Infrared

I'm in favour of adding it to the power descriptions, but I'm afraid that if it is a passive then the devs will see it as an opportunity to add even more annoying banner pop-ups that slow down the game.

Borstock

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

Jarvind

aesthetocyst said:

Borstock said:8mi

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

 No, no muscle feeding carnage. Not until muscle get a red or green power. 

It was symbiotes feeding Carnage that got all the lil piggies to squeal re: venom bomb.

So they nerfed goon ap gen. Sti the whine persisted.

So they nerfed the covers on the AIs Carnage in that event. And still the whine persisted.

So they finally just nerfed Carnage, period. And in response the whine multiplied, into whining over (the now relatively toothless) venom bomb, and the damage done to a playable character.

The whine never dies. Cant please please 'em. Best ignore 'em.

After all, they're only a tiny, whiny minority.

In fairness, the original version of that node was absolutely brutal. But, yeah, the continued nerfs after the first were uncalled for. Especially since we still have that Juggs/2x Muscle node in Meet R&G. Ugh.

Jaedenkaal

aesthetocyst said:

Also, a couple years ago, they cut goon AP generation in half, to reduce the problem of 'feeders'. They have also over time reduced the covers on enemy characters being fed by goons in PVE events.

Padded walls and soft lighting over on the bumper lanes. Play gentle, kids.

This was on Maggia only, presumably because they were doing much too good a job at feeding Hood Yellow and Black AP.

Of course, they also cut the costs in half (Thug Pistol costs 2), so now they're non-stop countdowns on nodes where there's one character making matches for them in their color.

TPF Alexis

Jarvind said:

aesthetocyst said:

Borstock said:8mi

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

 No, no muscle feeding carnage. Not until muscle get a red or green power. 

It was symbiotes feeding Carnage that got all the lil piggies to squeal re: venom bomb.

So they nerfed goon ap gen. Sti the whine persisted.

So they nerfed the covers on the AIs Carnage in that event. And still the whine persisted.

So they finally just nerfed Carnage, period. And in response the whine multiplied, into whining over (the now relatively toothless) venom bomb, and the damage done to a playable character.

The whine never dies. Cant please please 'em. Best ignore 'em.

After all, they're only a tiny, whiny minority.

In fairness, the original version of that node was absolutely brutal. But, yeah, the continued nerfs after the first were uncalled for. Especially since we still have that Juggs/2x Muscle node in Meet R&G. Ugh.

Also the one with Ares and the two Mutations (I think? The dog ones) feeding him red for Rampage every other turn.

jamesh

Borstock said:

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

I'd assumed each goon was generating AP independently: they do seem to slow down with the countdowns when you kill one or two off.

If my suggested wording doesn't reflect what's going on in the game, I'd suggest including an accurate description.  It's not an excuse to leave it with no description.

Borstock

jamesh said:

Borstock said:

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

I'd assumed each goon was generating AP independently: they do seem to slow down with the countdowns when you kill one or two off.

If my suggested wording doesn't reflect what's going on in the game, I'd suggest including an accurate description.  It's not an excuse to leave it with no description.

I don't notice that it slows down. Tile gen sure seems to continue. But again, I've never really bothered to do a study or anything.

Dormammu

Slowing down goon countdown tile generation actually makes them harder to beat, because it means they're getting blasted by Dr. Strange less. 

TPF Alexis

Dormammu said:

Slowing down goon countdown tile generation actually makes them harder to beat, because it means they're getting blasted by Dr. Strange less. 

It's been weird running G4mora/R4G/Strange in Meet R&G, because I keep having to decide if the extra tile(s) Gamora will generate from the Stuns are worth the reduction in Flames damage.

fanghoul

I thought goon ap was generated by sticking their hand in their pocket and shuffling some "gems" around.

Jaedenkaal

jamesh said:

Borstock said:

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

I'd assumed each goon was generating AP independently: they do seem to slow down with the countdowns when you kill one or two off.

If my suggested wording doesn't reflect what's going on in the game, I'd suggest including an accurate description.  It's not an excuse to leave it with no description.

They do; each Maggia Thug (for example) generates 1 Yellow AP. Thug Pistol costs 2 Yellow, so if there are two or more of them they can make a pistol tile ever turn. If there's only one (and no other yellow generators) they can only make one every other turn.

Phumade

TPF Alexis said:

Dormammu said:

Slowing down goon countdown tile generation actually makes them harder to beat, because it means they're getting blasted by Dr. Strange less. 

It's been weird running G4mora/R4G/Strange in Meet R&G, because I keep having to decide if the extra tile(s) Gamora will generate from the Stuns are worth the reduction in Flames damage.

There are real trade off between running a thanos / Strange / baby groot.   alot really depends on how consistent you can maintain Damage Per Turn.

babygroot/guardians are best against goons because health packs and no risk of strike tiles getting matched

Strange variants are best against opponents with cheap powers

Thanos variants are really effective when one enemy is significantly weaker than its teammates.

alot of pve speed is making sure you use the best combos against various nodes.

Dormammu

No matter how far into the 4* tier I progress, when fighting three goons I have yet to find a faster team than my old 3-star goon-clearing squad: Patch/IM40/Strange.

I haven't champed 4-star Rocket/Groot yet (I'm just a cover or two away) so that may change very soon.

GrimSkald

aesthetocyst said:

Borstock said:8mi

jamesh said:

Things would be a lot easier if they just included this in the power descriptions for the goons.  Would it be so bad to append something like the following?

(PASSIVE) At the start of the turn, generate 1 yellow AP

Every other character has their passive abilities documented ...

Maybe it varies by something other than the character, so they can't. Isn't there a Musclex2 team that feeds a ton of red to Carnage? And don't they tend to generate the same amount of AP even after you down one of them? I don't remember the AP gen slowing down.

Then again, I've never paid enough attention to know.

 No, no muscle feeding carnage. Not until muscle get a red or green power. 

It was symbiotes feeding Carnage that got all the lil piggies to squeal re: venom bomb.

So they nerfed goon ap gen. Sti the whine persisted.

So they nerfed the covers on the AIs Carnage in that event. And still the whine persisted.

So they finally just nerfed Carnage, period. And in response the whine multiplied, into whining over (the now relatively toothless) venom bomb, and the damage done to a playable character.

The whine never dies. Cant please please 'em. Best ignore 'em.

After all, they're only a tiny, whiny minority.

What, you liked eating a Symbiote Scythes every other turn?  For tinykitty's sake, man, that node was tinykittying awful.

I do remember when they displayed how much AP the goons generated, I didn't mind it but apparently it caused confusion and angst.  Dunno why.

Dotproduct

There is one change I would like to occur with active + goon nodes. That the goons don't produce AP until the active is killed off.

So right now you have good feeders getting the active much more AP/turn than would be normally possible with normal 3 matches. I know the goons don't match and so to compensate you have to give them free AP. But with an active present this means they get something like 10-12 AP/turn which is ridiculously unfair.

Punisher5784

Hmm.. if only the devs created a banner for the mooks (goons) that appeared every turn that showed the amount of colored AP they generate!

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/54174/i-miss-the-old-new-victory-banner

jamesh

aesthetocyst said:

GrimSkald said: ... What, you liked eating a Symbiote Scythes every other turn?  For tinykitty's sake, man, that node was tinykittying awful.

I do remember when they displayed how much AP the goons generated, I didn't mind it but apparently it caused confusion and angst.  Dunno why.

YES.

I liked the node that is. And wish we had many, many more like it.

Challenging nodes allow for quality play to become an advantage. By increasing the likelihood that careless / weak players will wipe, they reward roster strength, skill, and knowledge.

Without them the game becomes mindless repetitive busywork, where players go to earn a litany of participation trophies. Like writing 100 sentences for iso.

Y'know, like exactly how the game is today. Never mind the excellence, just punch the clock.

An old-school Carnage with a red feeder or two had the potential to fire scythes every other turn. Every turn if he was making red matches. Why would you let him? I certainly didn't. "eating a Symbiote Scythes every other turn?" That's crazy. 

I'm not particularly against nodes that require some thought to complete, but it is fairly clear that the current game design makes many people hate them.

A few of the reasons include:

1. the game rewards speed, in the form of better placement rewards in story, and completing matches without being hit in versus.  So time spent in a trial and error loop is time wasted here.
2. the game punishes failure, by making you use limited health packs or move on to other rostered characters who might have an even worse chance of winning.
3. the progression rewards don't properly scale with difficulty, so you'll often be rewarded for picking a lower difficulty level where you've got a 100% chance of winning all matches, than a harder one where you might not be able to complete all nodes.

All these things combine to increase the anxiety over playing challenging matches that you might not be able to win.  It is a bit short sighted to just blame the player.

optimus2861

aesthetocyst said:

An old-school Carnage with a red feeder or two had the potential to fire scythes every other turn. Every turn if he was making red matches. Why would you let him? I certainly didn't. "eating a Symbiote Scythes every other turn?" That's crazy. 

This is .. I can't even ..

"Why would you let him?"

Maybe because there's nobody in the boost list that particular week with a cheap stun. Maybe because you bring a stunner, but there's no freaking blue or whatever colour you need on the board. Maybe because a newer player doesn't have anyone viable who can stun. Maybe because I don't want to be freaking forced to bring specific character "X" to that particular fight each & every time, because if I don't, I'll eat a high-damage power every 1-2 turns because of a broken game mechanic!

Come on, man.