Koth...Nerf him

Monkeynutts

Enough is enough. plus 9 red and his first ability. Just played in the Hour event had Koth on 4 hp and then the AI matched 3 random gems which cascaded into a 5 red gemz vertically and then used thr first ability getting a lot more then bam! 140 mana in on turn.

Bunch of broken Origins creatures. **** ****.

ElfNeedsFood

They're planning the opposite - just make the newer planeswalkers even stronger. 

wereotter

Koth does still have absurd power even compared to newer planeswalkers. Elspeth can't make sure she gets white matches every turn with her gains being comparable to Koth, same goes for the new Liliana, though hers are more spread out.

In all honestly, Koth was given his first ability to make up for his poor mana gains off red, but now other planeswalkers at level 60, like Koth, maintain negative mana on multiple colors, but don't have his same ability to force on color matches and cascades. It time to rethink his toolkit, or at least his first ability. 

Monkeynutts

Koth needs a +6 or +7 and not +9
his first ability needs to do half of what it does.

Steeme

I find Saheeli is more overtuned than Koth.

Doomstat

Steeme said:

I find Saheeli is more overtuned than Koth.

I agree with this. With Koth, you just play keep him away with red matches. Against Saheeli, you need to worry about blue bounce, quick red creatures and her ability to create (or summon if they get enough mana for her 3 ability) creatures to take you out. Saheeli is my 3rd next purchase because of this threat.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Koth needs his first ability to cost 9.

Gilesclone

I think Saheeli and Kiora are both scarier than Koth.  If Koth can't get red matches he's useless. 

Monkeynutts

Kiora is +3 on matches and her abilities arent that scary.

Saheeli i agree can be a nightmare, but u say play him away from Red. His ability most times will negate ur attempt and he will match red once or twice sometimes in to a ridiculous cascade..
With Origins availae some broken creatures pop out under 16 mana and ur screwed.

morgue427

i find playing against him deny him red and if you can, always have a kill spell charged up and ready first before anything you need to play helps keep him in check, it isnt a perfect solution but works most of the time.

IM_CARLOS

Koth is limited. only Red and mostly creature. The only problem with Koth is: even AI can pilot this PW to victory.
If he get nerfed Nahiri would be the the natural replacement and has to be nerfed too, because of her explosive first ability and her ultimate.

I use Nahiri for TG because she is more constant, has life gain, boardcontroll and an alpha-striking ultimate.

Off standard she has deploy. 

Kiora is more versatile. You can play for loyalty (rampage) and pop out ultimate on turn 3. 

You can play combo with 2nd ability to fetch let’s say Monitor.

You even can play denial with first ability.

The best: you can change in game you only need loyality, no bigger problem in green.

hawkyh1

as a rough comparison:

desert of the fervent(c), 4 mana, 3 gems destroyed.
desert of the indomitable, 5 mana, 4 gems converted
to green.

koth level 60, 6 loyalty, destroy 12 non red gems.
(roughly 4 x dotf or 16 mana equivalent)
nissa1 level 60, 24 loyalty, convert 25 gems to green.
(roughly 6.25 x doti or ~ 31.25 mana equivalent)

6 loyalty -> 16 mana effect, versus,
24 loyalty -> 31.25 mana effect
it's so cheap koths 1st ability can sometimes recharge
itself every turn for a few turns.

just because there is a strategy against koth it doesn't
mean that his abilities are not incorrectly priced.

(nahiri needs at least a creature to use her 1st ability,
koth's 1st ability have no requirements)

edit: corrected planeswalker mana to read loyalty

HH

Dologan

The only OP aspect of Koth is his first ability, which is so cheap that it can generally sustain itself, more often than not generating about the amount of loyalty that it costs + mana. No other PW ability has the ability to do this and all common sense would dictate that this is unbalanced. His mana gains are very strong, but overall less than many newer PW, putting him in a distinct disadvantage when red gems are scarce.

ElfNeedsFood

@hawkyh1 I'm not sure you can compare cost of cards to planeswalker abilities at level 60. Particlularly cards people generally don't play. 

Nahiri Stoneforge - 9 - all of your creatures get +4/+4
Trial of Solidarity - 16 - all of your creatures get +3/+2

IM_CARLOS said:

Koth is limited. only Red and mostly creature. The only problem with Koth is: even AI can pilot this PW to victory.

ElfNeedsFood

I agree with @IM_CARLOS: people only care about this because the AI can steer a Koth deck. If Greg ever learned to cycle there would be N3 outrage like crazy.

We all just want free wins....  therefore we can never have real PvP because win rates would decline to 50%. 

Monkeynutts

I agreed with HH the first ability can recharge itself and sometimes for 2 plus turns if he has no creatures to target the second ability. 

hawkyh1

I'm saying what the effect should cost by comparing
both abilities with cards. these cards should both be
fairly balanced with each other. admittedly
gideon1, 15 loyalty, +4/+4 each creature
nahiri, 9 loyalty, +4/+4 each creature
so some power creep is allowed.
(the ai is also able to use nahiri's 1st ability but there
are few complaints about it being overpowered? I
think there's more to it than just wanting free wins)

(people do care that cycling is overpowered)

HH

morgue427

off topic cycling i see that they did work on that in the new set with them costing more, good choice, on koth his first could be a bit more than 6 honestly and his2 is almost useless honestly, i never use it, 3rd is hard especially with all cheap easy support removal, dont know how many times i have saved to get it only to have some ai chump blow it up next round. makes me want to weenie it to death with ability 1 spam till it cries

wereotter

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

Koth needs his first ability to cost 9.

I think something like this is a right solution. Koth can frequently recharge his loyalty just by using the first ability meaning that you get all the mana plus loyalty.

Imagine if they changed Dovin's first ability down to 6 loyalty from the current 9 to "You gain 6 mana and 6 loyalty" and imagine how broken we would all thing that would be saying he automatically gets 6 mana every turn. That's effectively what Koth is getting. Koth isn't so far broken that he's completely unfair, but when you look at what his abilities can do, they're far less balanced than other planeswalkers with mana generating first loyalty abilities.

MTG_Mage

I have mentioned a few times before on threads over a year old now that Koth's first ability is undercosted. This because since he blows up gems with it, he generates PW points by using it, so at a cost of 6 he can do it almost every turn, getting red matches doing so. 
All PWs first abilities are either 6 or 9 mana. The simple solution is to nerf it to 9 to keep it in line with all other abilities that generate mana.
His 3rd ability is 20 points...why 20!?

All PW abilities are divisible by 3:
1st ability is 6 or 9
2nd abilities are either 9,12 or 15
3rd abilities are 15, 18, 21 or 24.....except for Koth and Saheeli which is 20.
Both of these need to be bumped up to 21.

all 3 of Koth's abilities are good and should be bumped from 6,12,20 to 9,15,21

and yes Saheeli is overtuned as well. Her mana bonuses total 11 whereas ALL other PWs total bonuses range from 5 to 9. 

khurram

We are back on it again? Everyone will be complaining to nerf Ob if AI is ever programmed to save loyalty. But it doesn't so everyone is fine with it.

People just don't like to lose. Even if it's one in a 10th or 20th time. They will remember that one time they lost and the countless others when they didn't just never happened. And it has to be because the AI cheats or the opponent's pw is OP. 

And then there are also those who complaint about not getting enough Mana when they are the ones using koth's first ability.