PvP is beyond broken thanks to powered heroes

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  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So play.  Just keep hitting other targets yourself and stop caring if they hit you.
    So I can ruin my placement rewards?  Part of "play" is progress.  The fun part of the game is earning rewards and advancing the roster.  The sheer joy of matching tiles isn't sufficient to overcome the frustration from losing hundreds of points because you had the gall to play one more match.  If progress weren't the primary driver in this game I would be playing something else.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Calnexin said:
    So play.  Just keep hitting other targets yourself and stop caring if they hit you.
    So I can ruin my placement rewards?  Part of "play" is progress.  The fun part of the game is earning rewards and advancing the roster.  The sheer joy of matching tiles isn't sufficient to overcome the frustration from losing hundreds of points because you had the gall to play one more match.  If progress weren't the primary driver in this game I would be playing something else.
    Then, ultimately, you need to accept how far your roster can carry you and shield out there and wait for the next event. My roster carries me to 900 nicely, after that I get slaughtered. Do I want the 15 cp that comes at 1200? Yes. Do I want to place higher than top 25? Yes. Maybe with properly timed shield hops I could do it, but that is too much thought, commitment, and costs too much HP for me. 900 works, I shield out once I'm there and wait for the next event.
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,196 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Milk Jugz said:
    Calnexin said:
    So play.  Just keep hitting other targets yourself and stop caring if they hit you.
    So I can ruin my placement rewards?  Part of "play" is progress.  The fun part of the game is earning rewards and advancing the roster.  The sheer joy of matching tiles isn't sufficient to overcome the frustration from losing hundreds of points because you had the gall to play one more match.  If progress weren't the primary driver in this game I would be playing something else.
    Then, ultimately, you need to accept how far your roster can carry you and shield out there and wait for the next event. My roster carries me to 900 nicely, after that I get slaughtered. Do I want the 15 cp that comes at 1200? Yes. Do I want to place higher than top 25? Yes. Maybe with properly timed shield hops I could do it, but that is too much thought, commitment, and costs too much HP for me. 900 works, I shield out once I'm there and wait for the next event.

    Agreed. I can only make it to 900 as long as I shield hop at correct times. most of the time to hit 900 w/o issue I have to use a 24h shield, 8h and a 3h shield. But I really only push to 900 if its a character I am one or two covers away from maxing out. Last night I shielded at 853, used an 3h shield waited two and half hours, queued up a 69 point match of a 400 LC, 350HG and a 400 jean grey and built up 14 purple and dropped the whales on them for the instant win. Got my nova cover.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Milk Jugz said:
    Then, ultimately, you need to accept how far your roster can carry you and shield out there and wait for the next event. My roster carries me to 900 nicely, after that I get slaughtered. Do I want the 15 cp that comes at 1200? Yes. Do I want to place higher than top 25? Yes. Maybe with properly timed shield hops I could do it, but that is too much thought, commitment, and costs too much HP for me. 900 works, I shield out once I'm there and wait for the next event.
    That's exactly what I'm doing.  I just don't like it.  Particularly on days like today, where PvE is a single clear, the next PvP hasn't started, and there's no special event - once you've shielded out there's nothing to do.  Excepting lightning rounds, every other thing I could do in the game right now will actively hurt my scores.

    I've got no problem accepting my limitations.  Based on the time and money I've put in I'm generally progressing and placing where I think it's appropriate I should be.  But it's weird design to have a mechanism where you benefit more by abstaining than engaging, and suffering penalties if I play when I feel like it is beyond frustrating.
  • Pla5yer99
    Pla5yer99 Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
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    My roster consists mainly for 3 Champ 3 stars for pvp. I can't reach 650 as I got hit by 5 star and 4 star champ teams very quickly after 500 points. Refresh don't help much as well to get lower level teams 
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    Calnexin said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Then, ultimately, you need to accept how far your roster can carry you and shield out there and wait for the next event. My roster carries me to 900 nicely, after that I get slaughtered. Do I want the 15 cp that comes at 1200? Yes. Do I want to place higher than top 25? Yes. Maybe with properly timed shield hops I could do it, but that is too much thought, commitment, and costs too much HP for me. 900 works, I shield out once I'm there and wait for the next event.
    That's exactly what I'm doing.  I just don't like it.  Particularly on days like today, where PvE is a single clear, the next PvP hasn't started, and there's no special event - once you've shielded out there's nothing to do.  Excepting lightning rounds, every other thing I could do in the game right now will actively hurt my scores.

    I've got no problem accepting my limitations.  Based on the time and money I've put in I'm generally progressing and placing where I think it's appropriate I should be.  But it's weird design to have a mechanism where you benefit more by abstaining than engaging, and suffering penalties if I play when I feel like it is beyond frustrating.
    So you don't want to just play, you want to compete.  That's different.

    My experience really changed for the better a long time ago when I realized that it's OK to lose points, because I can always get them back.  I imagine by now your roster is carrying you to 900 pretty consistently perhaps with or without a couple shields.  So what's the big deal if people hit you?  Just keep playing and earning ISO and covers until you get within 3/8/24h and you can shield out with your 900 points or whatever you think you need to compete for placement rewards.
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
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    Calnexin said:

    I've got no problem accepting my limitations.  Based on the time and money I've put in I'm generally progressing and placing where I think it's appropriate I should be.  But it's weird design to have a mechanism where you benefit more by abstaining than engaging, and suffering penalties if I play when I feel like it is beyond frustrating.
    And this is pvp... 

    Game progression only speeds up when you get pass this with a decent roster. As you gain more covers you gain more ISO and HP. As your roster gets better, shield hopping isn't as much of an issue because you have more HP. As you place, you get covers, ISO, and HP back. This is the circle of pvp. The real issue is not gaining enough ISO to feed your roster. 
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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      So what's the big deal if people hit you?  Just keep playing and earning ISO and covers until you get within 3/8/24h and you can shield out with your 900 points or whatever you think you need to compete for placement rewards.
    The big deal is that I actually want to play the game.  Continuing to play hurts my score and thus my rewards.  70 Iso a match for however many times I can run a non-juicy team before running out of health packs is far less than maintaining placement in a higher reward tier.

    I made a suggestion some time ago - put a cooldown on the queue.  Once you beat someone, they disappear from your queue for 10 minutes.  If you don't shield, you're still wide open to the universe, but it prevents one person from zeroing in on you, which prevents dominant rosters from totally wrecking your progress before you can finish a match.

    I don't mind losing, per se.  It's losing to the same person over and over again.  If I'm a hot target because my team is weak or I'm just too slow, I expect to get hit by the entire population.  When it seems like the hits are starting to outweigh the gains it becomes my decision whether it's worth another match.  As it stands, as soon as a 5* champ hits me, it's literally game over.  There is zero chance that continued play will be beneficial.  It means random people decide when I stop playing, rather than when I want to or when I think it's smart to.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    Calnexin said:
      So what's the big deal if people hit you?  Just keep playing and earning ISO and covers until you get within 3/8/24h and you can shield out with your 900 points or whatever you think you need to compete for placement rewards.
    The big deal is that I actually want to play the game.  Continuing to play hurts my score and thus my rewards.  70 Iso a match for however many times I can run a non-juicy team before running out of health packs is far less than maintaining placement in a higher reward tier.

    I made a suggestion some time ago - put a cooldown on the queue.  Once you beat someone, they disappear from your queue for 10 minutes.  If you don't shield, you're still wide open to the universe, but it prevents one person from zeroing in on you, which prevents dominant rosters from totally wrecking your progress before you can finish a match.

    I don't mind losing, per se.  It's losing to the same person over and over again.  If I'm a hot target because my team is weak or I'm just too slow, I expect to get hit by the entire population.  When it seems like the hits are starting to outweigh the gains it becomes my decision whether it's worth another match.  As it stands, as soon as a 5* champ hits me, it's literally game over.  There is zero chance that continued play will be beneficial.  It means random people decide when I stop playing, rather than when I want to or when I think it's smart to.
    You are completely missing the point.  If you can always climb and shield at 900 then continuing to play doesn't hurt your progress.  You've just reached your equilibrium point.  And continued play results in no further progression in your score, but you still earn rewards from those matches, and you can always get lucky and jump up a bit in a small moment where others are inactive.

    No one can decide when to stop but you, you just have to stop caring so much about your points when you don't need them until you want to shield for placement.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Calnexin said:
      So what's the big deal if people hit you?  Just keep playing and earning ISO and covers until you get within 3/8/24h and you can shield out with your 900 points or whatever you think you need to compete for placement rewards.
    The big deal is that I actually want to play the game.  Continuing to play hurts my score and thus my rewards.  70 Iso a match for however many times I can run a non-juicy team before running out of health packs is far less than maintaining placement in a higher reward tier.

    I made a suggestion some time ago - put a cooldown on the queue.  Once you beat someone, they disappear from your queue for 10 minutes.  If you don't shield, you're still wide open to the universe, but it prevents one person from zeroing in on you, which prevents dominant rosters from totally wrecking your progress before you can finish a match.

    I don't mind losing, per se.  It's losing to the same person over and over again.  If I'm a hot target because my team is weak or I'm just too slow, I expect to get hit by the entire population.  When it seems like the hits are starting to outweigh the gains it becomes my decision whether it's worth another match.  As it stands, as soon as a 5* champ hits me, it's literally game over.  There is zero chance that continued play will be beneficial.  It means random people decide when I stop playing, rather than when I want to or when I think it's smart to.
    I don't think a "cooldown period" would help. Yes I see the same 5* roster hit me multiple times in a row sometimes, but I also see numerous others hit me too. You're at your ceiling, that's all there is to it. If there is a cooldown period then it will 5 different 5* people hitting you rather than 1 or 2. It sucks to say and I definitely understand where you're coming from, but accept that that is your ceiling for now and keep building. Eventually we will both be on the other side of this argument, and from what they have said it's not much more fun seeing Thano5 and BP5 all the time..... You'll be excited to hit those "weak" 4* rosters......
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
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    Calnexin said:
      So what's the big deal if people hit you?  Just keep playing and earning ISO and covers until you get within 3/8/24h and you can shield out with your 900 points or whatever you think you need to compete for placement rewards.
    The big deal is that I actually want to play the game.  Continuing to play hurts my score and thus my rewards.  70 Iso a match for however many times I can run a non-juicy team before running out of health packs is far less than maintaining placement in a higher reward tier.

    I made a suggestion some time ago - put a cooldown on the queue.  Once you beat someone, they disappear from your queue for 10 minutes.  If you don't shield, you're still wide open to the universe, but it prevents one person from zeroing in on you, which prevents dominant rosters from totally wrecking your progress before you can finish a match.

    I don't mind losing, per se.  It's losing to the same person over and over again.  If I'm a hot target because my team is weak or I'm just too slow, I expect to get hit by the entire population.  When it seems like the hits are starting to outweigh the gains it becomes my decision whether it's worth another match.  As it stands, as soon as a 5* champ hits me, it's literally game over.  There is zero chance that continued play will be beneficial.  It means random people decide when I stop playing, rather than when I want to or when I think it's smart to.
    You're not going to win this argument. The days of people actually discussing "courtesy" when it comes to PVP are long gone. Not double/triple tapping people, waiting a few minutes to give a person time to shield when you notice a juicy q, these are no longer widely accepted principles. Not that they were ever universal, but a decent enough amount of people used to abide by them. We're all trying to progress here and make our rosters better, and those of us that can score high enough all go through "q hell" in some form or fashion. There's ALWAYS other options, but people will complain about not wanting to spend ___ on shields, not wanting to spend iso to look for other qs, etc. 

    A better strategy for you to go by is to figure out the natural point that you start taking a lot of hits (depends who you have boosted for the week), and to completely limit your time being exposed. For example, most people with 4-star rosters will start taking hits pretty frequently once they get above 800. Therefore, once you cross that threshold, you should never allow yourself to be unshielded for more than 8-10 minutes. You should limit yourself to double hops, and only singles once you get below 8 hours or so left. Decide when you q up a match how long you think you will need to win, and never try to regain lost points on the fly. As far as the 5 star rosters go, you can't really do much about them finding you and hitting you, but you can try to be more wary of when they are active. Most 5-star rosters are whales, and they tend to join events either very early, or very late. 
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    My point is that being singled out by one player for multiple hits is not representative of an equilibrium point.  It's an anomaly that stifles play.  

    Equilibrium comes when you're in balance with your environment.  Your environment is all unshielded players currently within your mmr sight range.  If the bulk of the players are defeating you quicker than you can earn points, you have reached that point.  A single player beating you quickly multiple times is not equilibrium, it's a single point throwing off your equilibrium.  It's a splash of concentrated acid in weak buffer.  The strong player effectively has infinite weight until you disappear from their mmr.   If any given point could only hit you once per some reasonable time period, THAT would represent equilibrium.  Your balance and relative strength across the spectrum, rather than against a single entity preying on you.

    As it stands I have to care about points, because there's no time I don't need them.  I have to hit 900 early, because near the end of the event is when the 5*s have finished their climb and start bashing everyone else for placement.  Once I hit it, the placement reward is generally good enough to warrant shielding until the end, with one match (preferably easy) on the hop.  If I'm not going to 900, I don't shield at all.  I just get to 575 and let it degrade, maybe collect a few matches near the end if I'm close to a tier jump.
  • keitterman
    keitterman Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
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    Meh, I still think that keeping a separate score for progression rewards and placement rewards is the answer (progression only goes up, placement does up/down), though they probably wouldn't sell very many shields that way. 

    Or, they could leave the system as is, take out shields. Make people pay for every battle beyond a threshold, kind of like health packs, but you use them to play, not to heal. 

    Or I could just go play Pixel Dungeon, because clearly I don't value my time. 
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Still say pvp is fine the way it is. Player vs player, it is exactly what it's supposed to be, top rosters are at the top, bottom rosters at the bottom....
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2017
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    Milk Jugz said:
    I wish I had your problem and could fight those teams. I'd be happy and not bored.
    I've been playing three years to get to this point. I've been where you are too. Vailting four stars has led to a bunch of people being able to get usable 4 stars quicker. Only problem is that everyone has those same twelve frigging four stars.

    I currently have 24 champed four stars, twelve covered four stars that I am waiting for ISO for so and several more that are like 5-4-0, 5-1-1, or 5-1-5.  I guess I have gotten farther just to have a different set of annoyances, Lol.
    I'm pretty sure from some of his other posts aces is a 5* roster, so you're not where he is. I think he means it would be nice to not see the same 3 5*s
    Thank You Sir Milk Jugz! :smile:
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Milk Jugz said:
    I wish I had your problem and could fight those teams. I'd be happy and not bored.
    I've been playing three years to get to this point. I've been where you are too. Vailting four stars has led to a bunch of people being able to get usable 4 stars quicker. Only problem is that everyone has those same twelve frigging four stars.

    I currently have 24 champed four stars, twelve covered four stars that I am waiting for ISO for so and several more that are like 5-4-0, 5-1-1, or 5-1-5.  I guess I have gotten farther just to have a different set of annoyances, Lol.
    I'm pretty sure from some of his other posts aces is a 5* roster, so you're not where he is. I think he means it would be nice to not see the same 3 5*s
    Thank You Sir Milk Jugz! :smile:
    No problem!!! Hope to see you in pvp around the turn of the year. I'm building my hoard now for the 5* jump!!! 
  • Pla5yer99
    Pla5yer99 Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
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    For strange reasons I keep seeing 550 level thanos champ teams during pvp. Is it suppose to be that easy to farm so many thanos cover to reached that champion level? I am only a 3 star player. I can't see that is fair to get such high level teams hitting me 
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Pla5yer99 said:
    For strange reasons I keep seeing 550 level thanos champ teams during pvp. Is it suppose to be that easy to farm so many thanos cover to reached that champion level? I am only a 3 star player. I can't see that is fair to get such high level teams hitting me 
    Are you seeing them in your queue, or just as retaliations?

    Once you hit certain point thresholds, your team becomes visible to a wider array of players.  I don't ever see max champ 5* in my queue until they hit me.  When they appear as retaliations, it's usually somewhere around 800 points.  That appears to be when your roster is effectively unlocked for everyone to see.

    From what I've read on the forums, it works the same way for the attacker, but it has the opposite effect for the most powerful rosters.  Once they pass a threshold, the game allows them to see everyone else, rather than just the other rosters on their power tier.

    I don't think you become visible to them until you've surpassed that arbitrary threshold.   If you're seeing them while you're at low points, there's something else going on.  
  • Pla5yer99
    Pla5yer99 Posts: 32 Just Dropped In
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    Yes. Apparently I got beaten by a 550 thanos with a loaner opponents. There's no way to beat a 550 thanos with a 3 star roster. His hp is way more than 100k
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    Pla5yer99 said:
    Yes. Apparently I got beaten by a 550 thanos with a loaner opponents. There's no way to beat a 550 thanos with a 3 star roster. His hp is way more than 100k
    And how many points did you lose from that fight? 1? 2? Just skip it and move on, it doesn't cost you anything to skip a retal.