Please comment on the decision to backload pve cp progression rewards.

alphabeta

And back to the OP - I'm in favour of the change - you can see from the test of scaling concerns are being listened to and for me this change limits the value of bracket sniping - you want the decent rewards do the same work as the majority of the players don't snipe an easy t10 and get the CP.  Now you face a genuine choice as to which you prioritise.

Combine that with fixed scaling that makes PVE playable for advanced rosters and hurts soft cappers and things are really moving in the right direction

Moon Roach

udonomefoo said:

There's a line between "constantly engaged" and "burned out" this game burns enough already.  

I don't understand the need for constant engagement in this game anyway.  If the game's revenue was ad-based then yes, you want people playing as much as possible.  As it is, I don't understand how it matters.  Yes, you want people to play, but why do you need them to play 2-3+ hours every day?

Perhaps there's a tipping point there.  That's just enough extra effort for a player to say something like "sod this, I have a life and my time's more important, so I'll play less and start spending my way to glory".

This is a business, not a service, and in my opinion behind everything there is an economic reason.

Skrofa

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

You always need the f2p people. They are the majority in the game and most of the time, in a pvp environment, they are the "fodder" for the p2w people. Can you imagine pvp if it was only the whales?

It would be a wasteland

Do you have any idea what MMR is?  PVP is paying player vs paying players - trust me that's all we see 98% of the time - other 5* rosters of similar strength and investment. SMH

I know what MMR is and I do understand that rosters get to fight similar rosters in pvp. 

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Now, aside from that, is my point invalid? Do you think that f2p players are NOT needed? Shake your head as much as you like but please also counter my point

Pogo

Moon Roach said:

udonomefoo said:

There's a line between "constantly engaged" and "burned out" this game burns enough already. 

Perhaps there's a tipping point there.  That's just enough extra effort for a player to say something like "sod this, I have a life and my time's more important, so I'll play less and start spending my way to glory".

Whoops, for a second I thought we were both arriving at "sod this, I have a life and my time's more important, so I'll play something else instead."

Skrofa said:

I know what MMR is and I do understand that rosters get to fight similar rosters in pvp. 

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Now, aside from that, is my point invalid? Do you think that f2p players are NOT needed? Shake your head as much as you like but please also counter my point

I think part of the disconnect here is that players aren't just broken down into f2p and whales.

You have true free-players and one-time or rare-paying players (maybe they got an itunes gift card),
then you have a wide range of players who pay with varying frequency and magnitude. Maybe they do VIP and nothing else. Maybe they buy 200HP every week. Maybe they buy for a new roster slot every time an unclaimed character falls below 24 hours. Maybe they spend whatever it takes to get their dream PVP team and then stop paying. True whales are those who spend a disproportionately high amount compared to most players.

Players who spend more money have an advantage because they are given more resources, grow better rosters, and are able to compete at a higher level (plus they're more likely to throw money around for PVP shields, etc.)

I'm guessing that the higher levels of PVP see relatively few truly-free players, because it takes longer to develop a roster organically. Because of this, PVP matchups involving a f2p player vs a whale are probably extremely rare (though not impossible, unless MMR specifically checks to see if you are f2p, which I doubt).

I'm sure there are enough paying players that if every single free player skipped a PVP event, the remaining players could still be grouped into appropriate MMR clusters without consequence.

Phumade

Skrofa said:

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

You always need the f2p people. They are the majority in the game and most of the time, in a pvp environment, they are the "fodder" for the p2w people. Can you imagine pvp if it was only the whales?

It would be a wasteland

Do you have any idea what MMR is?  PVP is paying player vs paying players - trust me that's all we see 98% of the time - other 5* rosters of similar strength and investment. SMH

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Almost all whales coordinate in some form or fashion. Very few truly play solo. Either they work to build points or work to take points. Whales are generally competing past the 1K score line. This is primarily whale / shark territory and a feature of ELO scoring is that meaningful points are only generated from players with equivalent or better scores. Yes little minnows get beat up in the process due to shield resets, but the intent isn't really to beat up on little rosters to build massive scores. Even if you took out all the f2p players, you really wont see a difference in the scoring. This is because Scoring is really a function of the respective difference in scores. I.e. once they are past 900, minnows stop being a meaningful contributor to scores in the shard.

max5esq

The addition of more CP is good, the puttting all of it at the end and reducing the amount at 4 clears is awful, I am a busy adult I really barley have time for 4 clears, adding a 5th is not a good things. They should have just put the extra CP on top at the end.

Vhailorx

babinro said:

To promote 'proper' play is the obvious answer.

There is an entire community built around late joining PvE in order to maximize rewards and minimize play.  This change promotes players to join events the day they open and play throughout.

Those who late join now get a potential placement advantage but they lose out on 25 CP which is a BIG deal.

It's a smart move by D3 in my opinion.  They are promoting certain styles of play without outright preventing players from playing the way they want.

Let's assume you are right.

(1) shouldn't demi tell us this?  Why obfuscate the change?

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

alphabeta

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

Why should 80% plus of those getting the CP rewards in pve do that sort of effort and you be able to gain both high placement and full CP sniping a late bracket?

I understand why you wouldn't like the change but for the vast majority of the player base this is positive because they were already doing the work - plus that effort now comes with an active benefit vs those who wants to sit out two days of a 4 day event.

Frankly I'd be all for removing bracket info from pve like they do in pvp or closing the ability to join an event after that slice has been open for 24 hours - yes these are changes to the status quo but they remove a style of gameplay that disproportionately benefits a small subset of players who spend there lives on Line seeking pve rewards without putting in the full effort.

alphabeta

Skrofa said:

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

You always need the f2p people. They are the majority in the game and most of the time, in a pvp environment, they are the "fodder" for the p2w people. Can you imagine pvp if it was only the whales?

It would be a wasteland

Do you have any idea what MMR is?  PVP is paying player vs paying players - trust me that's all we see 98% of the time - other 5* rosters of similar strength and investment. SMH

I know what MMR is and I do understand that rosters get to fight similar rosters in pvp. 

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Now, aside from that, is my point invalid? Do you think that f2p players are NOT needed? Shake your head as much as you like but please also counter my point

Fine you asked for the counter so here goes.

Free to play player contribute nothing to the point scoring of pay to play players.  

A detailed explanation will follow but that's the answer - score would be exactly the same for p2p players.

MMR means as a P2P player I see only those rosters that are of similar size and strength so all the points generated by this pool of players are generated or lost initially within that pool through either coordinated play shield hopping or sniping.

f2p players only become visible to p2p players when we break MMR and therefore we might see f2p players for a short time during any event when there are no equivalent teams out and as suck we would see 'seals' - typically for 1-5 points a piece.

now if we say p2p players are scoring between 1200 and 2000 depending upon slice, interest and time commitment the generation of points is completely divorced from the precedes of f2p players and would alter not at all in a p2p slice only.

f2p players serve only 3 purposes so far as p2p players go: 

1. they fill out brackets - a pvp bracket has 500 players and only 5 of those get 4* covers in scl 7 and 8 so as far as a p2p player is concerned the ideal bracket ratio is 5:495 pay vs free because it makes for easier placement (not nothing to to with scoring though)

2 when we do see them they are some easy ISO from a quick hit on them and they offer us something easy to bake on rather than baking on another grill - but most will grill on a grill - and like grilling or not for f2p players this is were your logic is actively wrong - the score of p2p players are completely divorced from the existence of p2p players but the same can't be said in reverse - because the f2p player eat the grills of p2p players that get dragged up in score to a level there tier wouldn't achieve without the efforts of p2p players.

3. F2p players allow Demi to update there management and stock holders on how good a game MPQ is by pointing to XXX number of active players - there profit would undoubtably be exactly the same if that figure was just p2p players but it wouldn't sound as impressive to the unwashed  and the game wouldn't appear in top download charts in various app stores and the like impacting flow of new pay to play players into the game potentially.

Alsmir

alphabeta said:

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

Why should 80% plus of those getting the CP rewards in pve do that sort of effort and you be able to gain both high placement and full CP sniping a late bracket?

I understand why you wouldn't like the change but for the vast majority of the player base this is positive because they were already doing the work - plus that effort now comes with an active benefit vs those who wants to sit out two days of a 4 day event.

Frankly I'd be all for removing bracket info from pve like they do in pvp or closing the ability to join an event after that slice has been open for 24 hours - yes these are changes to the status quo but they remove a style of gameplay that disproportionately benefits a small subset of players who spend there lives on Line seeking pve rewards without putting in the full effort.

I guess you have a proper data to back up your claim?

Alsmir

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

You always need the f2p people. They are the majority in the game and most of the time, in a pvp environment, they are the "fodder" for the p2w people. Can you imagine pvp if it was only the whales?

It would be a wasteland

Do you have any idea what MMR is?  PVP is paying player vs paying players - trust me that's all we see 98% of the time - other 5* rosters of similar strength and investment. SMH

I know what MMR is and I do understand that rosters get to fight similar rosters in pvp. 

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Now, aside from that, is my point invalid? Do you think that f2p players are NOT needed? Shake your head as much as you like but please also counter my point

Fine you asked for the counter so here goes.

Free to play player contribute nothing to the point scoring of pay to play players.  

A detailed explanation will follow but that's the answer - score would be exactly the same for p2p players.

MMR means as a P2P player I see only those rosters that are of similar size and strength so all the points generated by this pool of players are generated or lost initially within that pool through either coordinated play shield hopping or sniping.

f2p players only become visible to p2p players when we break MMR and therefore we might see f2p players for a short time during any event when there are no equivalent teams out and as suck we would see 'seals' - typically for 1-5 points a piece.

now if we say p2p players are scoring between 1200 and 2000 depending upon slice, interest and time commitment the generation of points is completely divorced from the precedes of f2p players and would alter not at all in a p2p slice only.

f2p players serve only 3 purposes so far as p2p players go: 

1. they fill out brackets - a pvp bracket has 500 players and only 5 of those get 4* covers in scl 7 and 8 so as far as a p2p player is concerned the ideal bracket ratio is 5:495 pay vs free because it makes for easier placement (not nothing to to with scoring though)

2 when we do see them they are some easy ISO from a quick hit on them and they offer us something easy to bake on rather than baking on another grill - but most will grill on a grill - and like grilling or not for f2p players this is were your logic is actively wrong - the score of p2p players are completely divorced from the existence of p2p players but the same can't be said in reverse - because the f2p player eat the grills of p2p players that get dragged up in score to a level there tier wouldn't achieve without the efforts of p2p players.

3. F2p players allow Demi to update there management and stock holders on how good a game MPQ is by pointing to XXX number of active players - there profit would undoubtably be exactly the same if that figure was just p2p players but it wouldn't sound as impressive to the unwashed  and the game wouldn't appear in top download charts in various app stores and the like impacting flow of new pay to play players into the game potentially.

Personally, I'd just love the idea of PvP where p2p players are in the same bracket without any f2p players. If you don't need the f2p, that sounds pretty fair, right?

After the first event, the forum would be full of complains from your folk.

Tbh, it kinda amazes me how full of themselves p2p players are.

alphabeta

Alsmir said:

alphabeta said:

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

Why should 80% plus of those getting the CP rewards in pve do that sort of effort and you be able to gain both high placement and full CP sniping a late bracket?

I understand why you wouldn't like the change but for the vast majority of the player base this is positive because they were already doing the work - plus that effort now comes with an active benefit vs those who wants to sit out two days of a 4 day event.

Frankly I'd be all for removing bracket info from pve like they do in pvp or closing the ability to join an event after that slice has been open for 24 hours - yes these are changes to the status quo but they remove a style of gameplay that disproportionately benefits a small subset of players who spend there lives on Line seeking pve rewards without putting in the full effort.

I guess you have a proper data to back up your claim?

Yes - multiple pre join brackets in all PVE and 2 flips within the first 24 hours - then 1 flip typically late on - each bracket is 1000 players so lets say that 4000 players playing from either immediate start or within first day - no late flip bracket ever fills but I'll be generous and count it as 1000

So that's 4000/5000 players who are doing full event work for progression vs 20% (generously) who weren't.

Benefit to the vast majority were I'm defining vast majority as 80%+ because they get full progression and to compete over full length of event for placement where the 20% could have previously made most if not all the CP and sniped easy placement - not they might get the easy placement but no CP.

Got more snark for me?

alphabeta

Alsmir said:

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

alphabeta said:

Skrofa said:

You always need the f2p people. They are the majority in the game and most of the time, in a pvp environment, they are the "fodder" for the p2w people. Can you imagine pvp if it was only the whales?

It would be a wasteland

Do you have any idea what MMR is?  PVP is paying player vs paying players - trust me that's all we see 98% of the time - other 5* rosters of similar strength and investment. SMH

I know what MMR is and I do understand that rosters get to fight similar rosters in pvp. 

I do not pretend to fully comprehend pvp though but how would the points be in a pvp slice with just whales and no f2p?

Now, aside from that, is my point invalid? Do you think that f2p players are NOT needed? Shake your head as much as you like but please also counter my point

Fine you asked for the counter so here goes.

Free to play player contribute nothing to the point scoring of pay to play players.  

A detailed explanation will follow but that's the answer - score would be exactly the same for p2p players.

MMR means as a P2P player I see only those rosters that are of similar size and strength so all the points generated by this pool of players are generated or lost initially within that pool through either coordinated play shield hopping or sniping.

f2p players only become visible to p2p players when we break MMR and therefore we might see f2p players for a short time during any event when there are no equivalent teams out and as suck we would see 'seals' - typically for 1-5 points a piece.

now if we say p2p players are scoring between 1200 and 2000 depending upon slice, interest and time commitment the generation of points is completely divorced from the precedes of f2p players and would alter not at all in a p2p slice only.

f2p players serve only 3 purposes so far as p2p players go: 

1. they fill out brackets - a pvp bracket has 500 players and only 5 of those get 4* covers in scl 7 and 8 so as far as a p2p player is concerned the ideal bracket ratio is 5:495 pay vs free because it makes for easier placement (not nothing to to with scoring though)

2 when we do see them they are some easy ISO from a quick hit on them and they offer us something easy to bake on rather than baking on another grill - but most will grill on a grill - and like grilling or not for f2p players this is were your logic is actively wrong - the score of p2p players are completely divorced from the existence of p2p players but the same can't be said in reverse - because the f2p player eat the grills of p2p players that get dragged up in score to a level there tier wouldn't achieve without the efforts of p2p players.

3. F2p players allow Demi to update there management and stock holders on how good a game MPQ is by pointing to XXX number of active players - there profit would undoubtably be exactly the same if that figure was just p2p players but it wouldn't sound as impressive to the unwashed  and the game wouldn't appear in top download charts in various app stores and the like impacting flow of new pay to play players into the game potentially.

Personally, I'd just love the idea of PvP where p2p players are in the same bracket without any f2p players. If you don't need the f2p, that sounds pretty fair, right?

After the first event, the forum would be full of complains from your folk.

Tbh, it kinda amazes me how full of themselves p2p players are.

And I'd love f2p players to be in there own bracket and top out each pvp at 300 because they have no clue how to generate point but hey ho that's not the game we play.

Clearly you have no idea about the p2p game if you think placement in an individual event is a major drive - I play with people scoring 3/4k in some events barely getting t10 - that's 3* cover rewards when they have every 3* max championed - placement is a really big deal to us clearly when we get such useful rewards  .......

Pollozz

I do like the changes, more iso, more cp, is always welcome. I always do 6 clears so for the same time I am being rewarded with more. Sorry OP cannot backload your initiative.

Kolence

alphabeta said:

Alsmir said:

alphabeta said:

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

Why should 80% plus of those getting the CP rewards in pve do that sort of effort and you be able to gain both high placement and full CP sniping a late bracket?

I understand why you wouldn't like the change but for the vast majority of the player base this is positive because they were already doing the work - plus that effort now comes with an active benefit vs those who wants to sit out two days of a 4 day event.

Frankly I'd be all for removing bracket info from pve like they do in pvp or closing the ability to join an event after that slice has been open for 24 hours - yes these are changes to the status quo but they remove a style of gameplay that disproportionately benefits a small subset of players who spend there lives on Line seeking pve rewards without putting in the full effort.

I guess you have a proper data to back up your claim?

Yes - multiple pre join brackets in all PVE and 2 flips within the first 24 hours - then 1 flip typically late on - each bracket is 1000 players so lets say that 4000 players playing from either immediate start or within first day - no late flip bracket ever fills but I'll be generous and count it as 1000

So that's 4000/5000 players who are doing full event work for progression vs 20% (generously) who weren't.

Benefit to the vast majority were I'm defining vast majority as 80%+ because they get full progression and to compete over full length of event for placement where the 20% could have previously made most if not all the CP and sniped easy placement - not they might get the easy placement but no CP.

Got more snark for me?

Are you saying all 1000 players in such a bracket will play 4+ clears to reach progression or better?

I can tell you that in my alliance, we have those who don't have any pve score (but some of them still might have entered a bracket for all I know) and, more importantly, several that play pve, but stop lower than progression. Usually it's a score just over the 4* cover or the 8 cp. 

blargrx

Beer40 said:

Less CP = less pulls = less covers going to waste. 

aww this made my so sad. of course i wouldn't put it past them, that this was actually a thought to deal with players complaining of wasting covers

Ducky

*keep the pvp talk out of this thread. Especially when it's wrong*

Spoit

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

I dunno about you, but I'd say the line is probably somewhere around 2.5 hours per stack, repeating. So you had to do a 3 clear and/or set an alarm to make sure you don't waste too much time with it not counting down. And stacks of like 6?

Alsmir

alphabeta said:

Alsmir said:

alphabeta said:

Vhailorx said:

(2) why should "proper" play require 2+ hours a day just for pve?  As i said in the original post: how much is "too much"?

Why should 80% plus of those getting the CP rewards in pve do that sort of effort and you be able to gain both high placement and full CP sniping a late bracket?

I understand why you wouldn't like the change but for the vast majority of the player base this is positive because they were already doing the work - plus that effort now comes with an active benefit vs those who wants to sit out two days of a 4 day event.

Frankly I'd be all for removing bracket info from pve like they do in pvp or closing the ability to join an event after that slice has been open for 24 hours - yes these are changes to the status quo but they remove a style of gameplay that disproportionately benefits a small subset of players who spend there lives on Line seeking pve rewards without putting in the full effort.

I guess you have a proper data to back up your claim?

Yes - multiple pre join brackets in all PVE and 2 flips within the first 24 hours - then 1 flip typically late on - each bracket is 1000 players so lets say that 4000 players playing from either immediate start or within first day - no late flip bracket ever fills but I'll be generous and count it as 1000

So that's 4000/5000 players who are doing full event work for progression vs 20% (generously) who weren't.

Benefit to the vast majority were I'm defining vast majority as 80%+ because they get full progression and to compete over full length of event for placement where the 20% could have previously made most if not all the CP and sniped easy placement - not they might get the easy placement but no CP.

Got more snark for me?

Wait did you just assume that anyone who pre-joins, or joins early their brackets is doing full progression?

SpringSoldier

How about the possibility to remove the brackets entirely and give the rewards to the first 1%, 5%, 10% etc regardless of how many players there are? At least for PVE, where there is no direct competition other than for placement. Sure, lots of people might have the same score, but the software can consider each score's placement, not the individual's. In other words, there might be 2% of players getting the 1% prize (if they have absolutely identical scores), but it still sounds more fair than getting a prize depending on the bracket size. Is there's some programming glitch that won't allow it?