Questions for Devs: Future for PvP

13

Comments

  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    optimus2861 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.

    This is pretty much how Future Fight's PVP system works.No point losses on defense. Only if you attack and lose. You get 10 matches per day, refillable (costing crystals) twice per day, so max 30 matches per day. There aren't progression rewards per se; you get tokens after each fight which are redeemable in a store for certain items. Winning gets you more tokens. Awards are distributed globally at the end of the week and are on a % basis, with heftier rewards for the top .. 100 or 50, I forget. And a big one for the top finisher; though to finish first, you actually have to pay in more crystals through the week than you'll get back. The playerbase is divided into five leagues; top 20% in each league get promoted; bottom 20% get demoted. Rewards get better the higher you go of course.

    Point being, there are other PVP systems out there besides MPQ's chosen gongshow version of it.
    Yes! This!

    Normality. Something Logical... Something that makes sense.... You start a fight. You lose. You lose points.

    How can't others see this and are happy losing fights and points on the background even when they are winning a fight, and there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they can do about it, is beyond me.


    You lose points when you lose an actual fight you started. Something as simple, intuitive, normal and widely accepted since the down of humanity seems like a Genius invention in the MPQ community.


    BTW: I have nothing about people attacking you when you're not playing and where they sell you shield. That's how pay to win works. I hate it but I understand it.

    But losing fights on the background, that's plain... whatever...
  • maltyo9
    maltyo9 Posts: 131 Tile Toppler
    If you got a free 15 minute shield for every match you started, someone could just keep playing...and playing...and playing.  And never get hit.  

    And then you would see a story about some kid dying from exhaustion because he played an entire PVP event without stopping so he could champ tinykitty Flaptain...
  • Brigby
    Brigby ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 7,757 Site Admin
    Hi Everyone. This is a great thread, thanks to @aa25 , with a lot of interesting ideas and perspectives. I'm definitely going to reference this discussion in my weekly report, and pass it along to the developers. 

    As of right now, I don't have any information available to communicate, however if and when I receive any news regarding potential updates to PvP, I'll be sure to let all of you know!

  • Nepenthe
    Nepenthe Posts: 283 Mover and Shaker
    optimus2861 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.

    This is pretty much how Future Fight's PVP system works.No point losses on defense. Only if you attack and lose. You get 10 matches per day, refillable (costing crystals) twice per day, so max 30 matches per day. There aren't progression rewards per se; you get tokens after each fight which are redeemable in a store for certain items. Winning gets you more tokens. Awards are distributed globally at the end of the week and are on a % basis, with heftier rewards for the top .. 100 or 50, I forget. And a big one for the top finisher; though to finish first, you actually have to pay in more crystals through the week than you'll get back. The playerbase is divided into five leagues; top 20% in each league get promoted; bottom 20% get demoted. Rewards get better the higher you go of course.

    Point being, there are other PVP systems out there besides MPQ's chosen gongshow version of it.

    I'm glad I don't play Future Fight then, because what you just described is both pay-to-win and pay-to-play!  Please don't limit the number of times we can play pvp in a day and charge us to play more!  We already have healthpacks as a limiting factor in how much we can play, that's enough.
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    nitefox1337 said:
    Well, whatever you guys may thing, how PvP is now doesn't work. I myself just put a couple of 5 stars in rank 4, and just left them there, focusing on PvE which is way more fun. No one attacks them, and I attack someone like once in 4 hours. If you call that playing PVP, well, then nothing more to say.

    But one fact is true: MPQ is the first game I ever saw promoting "not to play" a mode. And multiple posts in this very thread are confirming that.

    The choice between ignoring that fact with stubbornness, or improving the pvp experience, is left to the Devs.
    So much wrong in so little time.

    "I myself just put a couple of 5 stars in rank 4, and just left them there, focusing on PvE which is way more fun. No one attacks them, and I attack someone like once in 4 hours."

    The clearance level (rank?) you choose has no bearing on who can and can't see you.  So perhaps the reason you aren't getting attacked is because you aren't worth anything.  But clearly you've demonstrated a firm understanding on how the game works, so I'm sure it will get better from here.

    "If you call that playing PVP, well, then nothing more to say."

    We don't call that playing PVP.  It's already been established that you don't know how to play PVP or don't enjoy playing it that way.  To speed thing up, let me just quickly summarize the mounds and mounds of posts you've posted in this thread:  "I am unwilling to spend my in-game resources or actual money to play competitively in the PVP events."  If that's your prerogative, so be it.  But please stop pretending it's an unintended mechanic as it took many revisions to get to this point, creating an alternative to the PVE monotony.

    "The system as it is now, it's just High level players feeding on low level players until the latter is completely out."

    Please tell me more about this.  Because I join the event seeing all dual 5-star players.  Fight my way up seeing all dual 5-star players.  Occasionally get to see someone that has only one champion, and a 435 second.  And only after getting up to the top progression awards do I see anyone that could be classified as a "low level player."  And at that point, they are worth 5 or less points.  I guess if those low-level players quit PVP because of a couple of 5-pt losses, they probably are never going to approve of any competitive play.  On the bright side, they can focus on PVE where participation ribbons are available for all of the good little boys and girls."

    "You guys are so afraid of real competition. . . ." 

    Yes, clearly we are the ones trying to make our competition level even easier.  Please leave all the projecting to the movie theaters.  Thanks. 
  • Justice Jacks
    Justice Jacks Posts: 116 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    optimus2861 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.

    This is pretty much how Future Fight's PVP system works.No point losses on defense. Only if you attack and lose. You get 10 matches per day, refillable (costing crystals) twice per day, so max 30 matches per day. There aren't progression rewards per se; you get tokens after each fight which are redeemable in a store for certain items. Winning gets you more tokens. Awards are distributed globally at the end of the week and are on a % basis, with heftier rewards for the top .. 100 or 50, I forget. And a big one for the top finisher; though to finish first, you actually have to pay in more crystals through the week than you'll get back. The playerbase is divided into five leagues; top 20% in each league get promoted; bottom 20% get demoted. Rewards get better the higher you go of course.

    Point being, there are other PVP systems out there besides MPQ's chosen gongshow version of it.

     And yet, here you are.  "Hey Doc, it hurts when I go like this." 
  • zaku
    zaku Posts: 43 Just Dropped In
    Referring to progression rewards as such is certainly a misnomer though. If the point threshold is at 800 and you have indeed earned 800 points, but have lost some from getting, then it doesn't necessarily reclect progression 

    My solution:
    Increase progression reward requirements and have a 3'rd reward system that is similar to placement score, but rewards holding a point range

  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    @nitefox1337

    Rooster.... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    A rooster, also known as a cockerel or ****, is a male gallinaceous bird, usually a male chicken.
  • Khanwulf
    Khanwulf Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    Warbringa said:
    I have been playing the game for about 2 1/2 years now and honestly I just completely ignore PvP (other than joining a bracket to get alliance rewards).  I tried to do both PvP and PvE when I was new, and had success early on but as my roster developed, PvP just became boring and too annoying for many of the issues described in the posts above.  The biggest issue is that I, like many players I imagine, just don't have the time to play both PvE and PvP so I chose PvE because I really preferred the that mode more.  In order to get a decent score in PvP you need to shield hop, which was probably the part I liked least about PvP.  That and losing so many points in a matter of minutes was also a huge turn off, but that goes hand in hand with shield hopping.  If they seriously overhauled the PvP system, I might consider giving it a shot again.
    This is pretty much it. PVP is a low-reward grind with mechanics that reward not playing and inflict trauma on the participants. The time you put into Versus is taken away from PVE (and which is now needed all the more for progression). Versus should be tossed into the trashheap, but removing point loss (and then rebalancing point tiers) would help. 

    I put a similar editorial with suggestions on the appropriate forum a while back, linked here purely for relevance.

    But broadly put, Versus is junk.

    -Khanwulf 
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    Here's a suggestion: we remove point loss for PVP but make the AI much, much smarter so that losing is a real possibility.  The AI can r
    acescracked said:
    @nitefox1337

    Rooster.... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    A rooster, also known as a cockerel or tinykitty, is a male gallinaceous bird, usually a male chicken.
    That would have been funnier with a GIF of a fighting rooster
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    Khanwulf said:
    Warbringa said:
    I have been playing the game for about 2 1/2 years now and honestly I just completely ignore PvP (other than joining a bracket to get alliance rewards).  I tried to do both PvP and PvE when I was new, and had success early on but as my roster developed, PvP just became boring and too annoying for many of the issues described in the posts above.  The biggest issue is that I, like many players I imagine, just don't have the time to play both PvE and PvP so I chose PvE because I really preferred the that mode more.  In order to get a decent score in PvP you need to shield hop, which was probably the part I liked least about PvP.  That and losing so many points in a matter of minutes was also a huge turn off, but that goes hand in hand with shield hopping.  If they seriously overhauled the PvP system, I might consider giving it a shot again.
    This is pretty much it. PVP is a low-reward grind with mechanics that reward not playing and inflict trauma on the participants. The time you put into Versus is taken away from PVE (and which is now needed all the more for progression). Versus should be tossed into the trashheap, but removing point loss (and then rebalancing point tiers) would help. 

    I put a similar editorial with suggestions on the appropriate forum a while back, linked here purely for relevance.

    But broadly put, Versus is junk.

    -Khanwulf 
    Just... wow. Not sure where to start with this mis-informed post. First, you contradict yourself with "low-reward grind" immediately followed by "mechanics that reward not playing". That makes no sense. Which is it?

    The time put into Versus is taken away from PVE... says who? Just because you only have 20 minutes a day to play doesn't mean everyone else does.

    I will allow your opinion of not liking PVP, but there are PLENTY of people out there that PREFER PVP to PVE. And there are many who like both. Maybe you just don't match 3 very well?

    I for one would quit this game if it were PVE only. That requires a minimum of 2 hours a day of play time (unless, fingers crossed, they keep the test they just ran). I can play PVP for as little as an hour over the course of an entire event and get all the rewards plus placement rewards. This also seems to contradict your contradiction of "low-reward grind with mechanics that reward not playing..."
  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    edited June 2017
    Orion said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Update after some time:

    I am now completely ignoring the PVP aspect of this game. It's messy, inconsistent, unfair, and false. I do not like to just throw words. So here's what I mean:

    - by "Messy" I mean that the Events are literally all over the place. There's an unnecessary event timing which is confusing. Why not instead declare that all Events are 1 week long but you will get rewards for ranking placements every 2 days? Voila! Done. There you go.

    This makes no sense.  The PvP events are even MORE consistent than PvE because there's 3 a week.  Every week.  They always start and end at the same time.  PvE has 3, 4 and 7 days events and subs are 1 or 2 days.  That's far more confusing than PvP.


    - Inconsistent: Especially if you are a new Player, you never have any idea of what to expect. Last week I entered a Rank 5 tournament and managed to reach 575 points for the 10 CP. This week there's no way I can even reach 100 with all the roosters in the tournament. Because of that, I can't plan a Rooster, a strategy, an approach. It's just random levels of Roosters you encounter.

    Yes, and that's why you can skip people.  Don't like the opponents you see?  Skip them and find someone you can beat.  Sometimes you have to skip a lot.  If your roster is weaker, you'll definitely have to skip a lot.  The people you see have nothing to do with the CL you selected.  It's all about roster strength and the time slice you selected.


    Example: It's like Playing Diablo in Normal and encountering an Inferno Level Diablo right in the middle of the map next to a level 1 Zombie.

    Fix: You shouldn't select Rankings anymore. You should always join a Ranking based on your level and the average level of your Rooster.

    note: If you do not like this fix, it means that you are unwilling to compete against your peers, thus accepting a real challenge, and that what you call "PvP" is just feeding on newbies.

    As people keep saying, there's very little feasting on newbies.  When I was a 3* player, all I saw were 3* and 4* rosters.  When I was a 4* player, all I saw was 4* and 5* players.  Now that I'm a 5* player, I very rarely see anything but double champed 5*s, unless it's a 4* at level 440+.  When you get to higher scores, sometimes MMR breaks down and you see 3* and 4* rosters worth single digits.  Some people farm these rosters, but I don't think it's worth it.


    - Unfair: I kept complaining about that. Will repeat it again. Losing fights while fighting will never make sense. You can't punish someone for actually be in a Fight regardless of if he's winning or losing. "Oh, look, while you were busy playing, 10 guys owned you! enjoy!". You can't even shield yourself while you are fighting.

    Fix: Give priority to the guy who is online: No losing points if you are actually playing against others Rosters. How to detect that? Simple. For 15 minutes after winning a game, you have an unbreakable shield, even in a fight. Easy. Fixed.

    This is a terrible idea when you think about it.  Want a free shield?  Just leave a fight open for hours.  I can stay online all day if I want without ever playing.  Shields makes the game money.  People play for HP so they can shield.  This is what keeps the game going.

    Please read again the last Fix:

    "Fix: Give priority to the guy who is online: No losing points if you are actually playing against others Rosters. How to detect that? Simple. For 15 minutes after winning a game, you have an unbreakable shield, even in a fight. Easy. Fixed."

    i clearly state "For 15 minutes after winning a game"...

    I shouldn't expect people to immediately get it, so here's an explanation:

    You start a PvP Game. You win. Bam! For 15 minutes, (not hours and hours. just 15 minutes) you have a shield that won't break even if you Fight. This shield will last only 15 minutes. But it will Refresh after each victory.

    So if you're Roster, (not Rooster, sry bout that xD), is really strong and have great heroes, and you're a good player, as long as you play, you can't lose points which is ... Normal. How it should be.

    This way you promote players to have a better Roster, better heroes, and PLAY!

    The required "Victory" is to avoid exactly what you stated.


    So the normal PvP routine would be: Start a game. Try to win as much as possible. As long as you have victories, you won't lose points.

    And then, when you need to do something else, purchase the usual shield they sell for HP.


    --------


    About Skipping:

    No. You can't skip. The same Players keep re-spawning again and again in circle. You have a choice between 3 or 4 very high level players which listed their Heroes at rank 4 which is between level 15 and 20.

    I am level 25 and I can't engage their Heroes. It's obviously High level players feeding. (which also answers the feeding response).

  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2017
    There would be zero challenge. Gotta have some risk to be fun.

    Quite a number of players hit 900, 1200, and much higher 3k, 4k points. That's with risk of getting hit. Matches take 2 to 6 mins. If players were insulated while playing, my gosh scores would be insane and those that could play 48 hrs straight would always kill it.

    Nitefox, the problem is you want to be top dog with not a lot of time invested or money. Pay your dues with either of those. Be patient and you'll see the PvP game mode benefits.
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    @nitefox1337

    [At this point, I think you've fully stated your ideas for how you'd change PvP.  There is no need to keep reiterating them when people disagree with you.]
  • Megdar
    Megdar Posts: 133 Tile Toppler
    edited June 2017
    acescracked said:
    There would be zero challenge. Gotta have some risk to be fun.

    Quite a number of players hit 900, 1200, and much higher 3k, 4k points. That's with risk of getting hit. Matches take 2 to 6 mins. If players were insulated while playing, my gosh scores would be insane and those that could play 48 hrs straight would always kill it.

    Nitefox, the problem is you want to be top dog with not a lot of time invested or money. Pay your dues with either of those. Be patient and you'll see the PvP game mode benefits.
    This is already like that, people that climb to 3 or 4k points do it without risk. Except that they gamble the game. They are a minority that exploit a stupid pvp system on the back of the rest of the PVP player mass.

    They are in outside the game chat room and the coordinate shield hop. They queue people when these people tell in the chat they are unshielded, and then they say when they unshield so other don't hit them. Normally, you can finish one fight before being hit by random dude, then they shield back.

    They do 1 fight, shield, 1 fight, shield. Yes they pay money to the compagny, but they take no risk at all.

    //Removed Insult -Brigby
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2017
    Megdar said:
    acescracked said:
    There would be zero challenge. Gotta have some risk to be fun.

    Quite a number of players hit 900, 1200, and much higher 3k, 4k points. That's with risk of getting hit. Matches take 2 to 6 mins. If players were insulated while playing, my gosh scores would be insane and those that could play 48 hrs straight would always kill it.

    Nitefox, the problem is you want to be top dog with not a lot of time invested or money. Pay your dues with either of those. Be patient and you'll see the PvP game mode benefits.
    This is already like that, people that climb to 3 or 4k points do it without risk. Except that they gamble the game. They are a minority that exploit a stupid pvp system on the back of the rest of the PVP player mass.

    They are in outside the game chat room and the coordinate shield hop. They queue people when these people tell in the chat they are unshielded, and then they say when they unshield so other don't hit them. Normally, you can finish one fight before being hit by random dude, then they shield back.

    They do 1 fight, shield, 1 fight, shield. Yes they pay money to the compagny, but they take no risk at all.

    //Removed Insult From Quote -Brigby
    You can do that 3 times every 8 hours for a max of 75 points each 7 times over the course of a 2 and a half day event for a total of 1575 maximum possible points

    //Removed Retaliatory Insult -Brigby
  • optimus2861
    optimus2861 Posts: 1,233 Chairperson of the Boards
    Justice Jacks said:

     And yet, here you are.  "Hey Doc, it hurts when I go like this." 
    Oh I am in no denial that I've been essentially addicted to MPQ for far too long. More than once I've tried quitting/scaling back and yet I can't quite uninstall this thing.

    Still. I play FF about 2x-3x more than MPQ. Have for quite some time. I find it far more rewarding for the effort I put into it, and far less frustrating because it's much easier to build up characters of your choice at your own pace rather than (1) have to play at specific times, (2) wait for specific events and/or (3) pray to the RNG goddesses.

    To each their own of course.

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