Questions for Devs: Future for PvP

24

Comments

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    I really like the idea of removing the loss of points.  You can make PVP more of a puzzle instead of a stressful, frustrating experience.  This would take some testing/adjustment, but here's my proposed PVP mechanic:

    1. The amount of points in a match is determined by the "power difference" between your top 10 characters and the opponents team.  For example, if you only have 3* champs, then you get more points for beating a 4* team compared to beating a 3* team.  The MMR would not match you up against teams with significantly less "power".

    2. To be fair to people with multiple 5* champs, since the opposing teams may not have more "power" than theirs, they would get above average points for beating other 5* teams. 

    3. The amount of points in a match would gradually decrease as you climb (diminishing returns).  Otherwise, PVP would turn into a grind fest like PVE.  Players need a reason to stop playing, otherwise they will keep going like mindless robots.  But getting to the very top would require you to beat teams far more powerful than yours, which is the real puzzle.

    4. Of course, progression rewards would need to be adjusted and placement rewards should be "flattened out" to discourage grinding. 

    What I like about this is that you can choose any team you want without worrying about defense (or trying to scare away potential attackers).  This opens up the possibility of using lower tier characters because they may work best in the team.  The real puzzle here is composing a team that can quickly beat a more "powerful" team, so that you can climb faster and spend less time in PVP.  If that's too complicated for you, then you could simply play teams at your same power level instead, for average points.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    I have been playing the game for about 2 1/2 years now and honestly I just completely ignore PvP (other than joining a bracket to get alliance rewards).  I tried to do both PvP and PvE when I was new, and had success early on but as my roster developed, PvP just became boring and too annoying for many of the issues described in the posts above.  The biggest issue is that I, like many players I imagine, just don't have the time to play both PvE and PvP so I chose PvE because I really preferred the that mode more.  In order to get a decent score in PvP you need to shield hop, which was probably the part I liked least about PvP.  That and losing so many points in a matter of minutes was also a huge turn off, but that goes hand in hand with shield hopping.  If they seriously overhauled the PvP system, I might consider giving it a shot again.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    I think this is the last time I'll give my two cents on this topic. 

    I like the idea someone posted earlier about two scores (progression and placement). Progression points can't be lost, placement points can.

    I like it because it would allow to me play more PVP to chase higher progression.

    Do I think it will be implemented? No. 
    Does it make MPQ more money? No, I don't see how.
    Is that why it won't be implemented? Yes!

    And to the OP, great question to ask, but all you need to do is read thru the comments and see so many different opinions and the divide among players what to actually change. Then go read the post about the new player dropping a few hundred dollars on the game.

    Divided player base on topic + new revenue still flowing in = no fix necessary (unless it draws in more revenue).
  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    edited May 2017
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    nitefox1337 said:

    But they Punish you for actually being in the game, in a fight, and even winning your fight, by letting 5 people beat you while you're at it?

    Now that doesn't make sense because there's Nothing you can do about it. Shields dont work when you fight, you can't play 10 games at once, and you have no say on who's attacking you.

    Of course you can do something about it.

    Learn how high you can float.

    Want to go higher? Shield up, line up a 65+ point match, win it quickly, shield again.

    Don't want to shield? Then just accept that you will not be able to stay above 600.

    You don't get progression rewards for showing up in PVP, unlike in PVE.
    You earn your rewards in PVP by having a good roster and/or knowing exactly how high your roster can get you.


    Not only your arguments are incorrect but they in fact strengthen my Arguments.

    You are clearly stating "Play Less PVP, Just steal a game between shields"...

    I don't think Devs of this game intended PVP to be something you play once in 3 or 6 hours to steal one game between shields.

    and yet, even that is almost impossible.

    And no you can't do anything about it.

    First, when you start a match, on the background you're losing 5. 30 points won may cost you 40 lost.

    You say shield up. Ok. But shield again after a match? How? There's a cooldown on Shields. Once you used them all, you can't shield anymore.


    I suggest you read my suggestion from scratch, pass more time trying to understand them and sleep on it. It will make way better sense in the morning.

    I don't understand what you're after. Do you think everyone should be able to climb as high as they want whenever they want? That's PVE, not PVP. This is player vs. player. A better roster is going to win 99% of the time. That IS what the devs intended.

    If you're going into a match and losing 5 times before coming out, I suggest you learn how to match 3. Maybe you're doing it wrong.  :p

    That's the problem. Many don't understand because they are so used to the current system, and do not read past "remove point loss".

    Let me put it this way:

    If they implement what I am suggesting, PVP will be not only even more rewarding for Veterans, but it will also drastically separate different level players and bring way more thrilling PVP experience. (assuming you're a veteran player).

    The Problem with PVP is that it's not competitive, it's drag, it's too hars and too punishing.

    What I suggest, (please read my original post at page 1) fixes that.

    In short, High level players will compete with other high level players, for even better Rewards.

    Low level players will compete with lower level players. This won't happen by restriction but by incentive as a high level player won't earn enough points from a low level player.

    And even if he decides to farm a lower level player like 100 times in a row, the lower level player wont mind cause he doesnt lose point.

    But it's all better explained in my initial Post.
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:

    What most people don't get about PvP is that if it feels impossible to get certain rewards that's because you weren't meant to get those rewards with your roster.  It's not PvE.  There are no participation trophies.  Changes to make it friendlier to younger rosters are counter to the nature and intent of PvP.  It's supposed to be hard.  It's supposed to be competitive.  Only 1 of 500 people is meant to finish in 1st place, and to do that you need to have one of the best of those 500 rosters.
    That sort of sounds nice in theory, but this idea of pvp being competitive is somewhat diminished by the amount of outside coordination that takes place with it.

    As far as people not being meant to get certain rewards, surely champed 3* and 4* rosters should readily be able to get to the progression 3* and 4* covers in order that they will be able to progress, even if high placements and max progression might be beyond them.
  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    Fightmastermpq said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    nitefox1337 said:

    But they Punish you for actually being in the game, in a fight, and even winning your fight, by letting 5 people beat you while you're at it?

    Now that doesn't make sense because there's Nothing you can do about it. Shields dont work when you fight, you can't play 10 games at once, and you have no say on who's attacking you.

    Of course you can do something about it.

    Learn how high you can float.

    Want to go higher? Shield up, line up a 65+ point match, win it quickly, shield again.

    Don't want to shield? Then just accept that you will not be able to stay above 600.

    You don't get progression rewards for showing up in PVP, unlike in PVE.
    You earn your rewards in PVP by having a good roster and/or knowing exactly how high your roster can get you.


    Not only your arguments are incorrect but they in fact strengthen my Arguments.

    You are clearly stating "Play Less PVP, Just steal a game between shields"...

    I don't think Devs of this game intended PVP to be something you play once in 3 or 6 hours to steal one game between shields.

    and yet, even that is almost impossible.

    And no you can't do anything about it.

    First, when you start a match, on the background you're losing 5. 30 points won may cost you 40 lost.

    You say shield up. Ok. But shield again after a match? How? There's a cooldown on Shields. Once you used them all, you can't shield anymore.


    I suggest you read my suggestion from scratch, pass more time trying to understand them and sleep on it. It will make way better sense in the morning.

    I don't understand what you're after. Do you think everyone should be able to climb as high as they want whenever they want? That's PVE, not PVP. This is player vs. player. A better roster is going to win 99% of the time. That IS what the devs intended.

    If you're going into a match and losing 5 times before coming out, I suggest you learn how to match 3. Maybe you're doing it wrong.  :p

    That's the problem. Many don't understand because they are so used to the current system, and do not read past "remove point loss".

    Let me put it this way:

    If they implement what I am suggesting, PVP will be not only even more rewarding for Veterans, but it will also drastically separate different level players and bring way more thrilling PVP experience. (assuming you're a veteran player).

    The Problem with PVP is that it's not competitive, it's drag, it's too hars and too punishing.

    What I suggest, (please read my original post at page 1) fixes that.

    In short, High level players will compete with other high level players, for even better Rewards.

    Low level players will compete with lower level players. This won't happen by restriction but by incentive as a high level player won't earn enough points from a low level player.

    And even if he decides to farm a lower level player like 100 times in a row, the lower level player wont mind cause he doesnt lose point.

    But it's all better explained in my initial Post.
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.  I understand all the other drivel that you posted that you think would fix your terrible idea, but it wouldn't.  There are people who were grinding out single point nodes in PvE for hours and hours on end, and they would do the same in PvP.  Points would skyrocket, you'd have to play forever to place even remotely high.....no.  Just no.  The last thing this game needs is more PvE.  Isn't there an entire thread tinykitty about how much of a slap in the face it is to have to play for 15 more minutes for higher rewards? 

    If your counter argument is that you need Losing Points, then it can be done properly...

    Here's another "terrible" idea all the games except this one are using. Maybe you've heard of it:

    Lose points when you actually lose a fight you are actually doing?

    Now this may seem rocket science but it isn't. If you want people to lose points then make them lose points fairly.

    The system as it is now, it's just High level players feeding on low level players until the latter is completely out.

    ---------

    You guys are so afraid of real competition that you claim that you defend PVP where you actually don't.

    If you really like PVP, why don't all High level player go to their own Rank?

    Why do I see 50k Hit points Heroes in Rank 3?

    If you are really for PvP and a fair fight, you should defend that every Rank should be exclusive to its Player level.

    As in "If you are a Player level 40, you can't join a rank 4 Event.

    Now that's PVP.

    PvP it not "Hey, I bought tokens for 2 years so now I just park my heroes and feed on newbies".
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    We don't feed on newbies.
    All we see from 0 to 1100+ are other 5* rosters.
    I don't know how often we've explained that already.
    There is no feeding on newbies.
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    nitefox1337 said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    nitefox1337 said:
    Bowgentle said:
    nitefox1337 said:

    But they Punish you for actually being in the game, in a fight, and even winning your fight, by letting 5 people beat you while you're at it?

    Now that doesn't make sense because there's Nothing you can do about it. Shields dont work when you fight, you can't play 10 games at once, and you have no say on who's attacking you.

    Of course you can do something about it.

    Learn how high you can float.

    Want to go higher? Shield up, line up a 65+ point match, win it quickly, shield again.

    Don't want to shield? Then just accept that you will not be able to stay above 600.

    You don't get progression rewards for showing up in PVP, unlike in PVE.
    You earn your rewards in PVP by having a good roster and/or knowing exactly how high your roster can get you.


    Not only your arguments are incorrect but they in fact strengthen my Arguments.

    You are clearly stating "Play Less PVP, Just steal a game between shields"...

    I don't think Devs of this game intended PVP to be something you play once in 3 or 6 hours to steal one game between shields.

    and yet, even that is almost impossible.

    And no you can't do anything about it.

    First, when you start a match, on the background you're losing 5. 30 points won may cost you 40 lost.

    You say shield up. Ok. But shield again after a match? How? There's a cooldown on Shields. Once you used them all, you can't shield anymore.


    I suggest you read my suggestion from scratch, pass more time trying to understand them and sleep on it. It will make way better sense in the morning.

    I don't understand what you're after. Do you think everyone should be able to climb as high as they want whenever they want? That's PVE, not PVP. This is player vs. player. A better roster is going to win 99% of the time. That IS what the devs intended.

    If you're going into a match and losing 5 times before coming out, I suggest you learn how to match 3. Maybe you're doing it wrong.  :p

    That's the problem. Many don't understand because they are so used to the current system, and do not read past "remove point loss".

    Let me put it this way:

    If they implement what I am suggesting, PVP will be not only even more rewarding for Veterans, but it will also drastically separate different level players and bring way more thrilling PVP experience. (assuming you're a veteran player).

    The Problem with PVP is that it's not competitive, it's drag, it's too hars and too punishing.

    What I suggest, (please read my original post at page 1) fixes that.

    In short, High level players will compete with other high level players, for even better Rewards.

    Low level players will compete with lower level players. This won't happen by restriction but by incentive as a high level player won't earn enough points from a low level player.

    And even if he decides to farm a lower level player like 100 times in a row, the lower level player wont mind cause he doesnt lose point.

    But it's all better explained in my initial Post.
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.  I understand all the other drivel that you posted that you think would fix your terrible idea, but it wouldn't.  There are people who were grinding out single point nodes in PvE for hours and hours on end, and they would do the same in PvP.  Points would skyrocket, you'd have to play forever to place even remotely high.....no.  Just no.  The last thing this game needs is more PvE.  Isn't there an entire thread tinykitty about how much of a slap in the face it is to have to play for 15 more minutes for higher rewards? 

    If your counter argument is that you need Losing Points, then it can be done properly...

    Here's another "terrible" idea all the games except this one are using. Maybe you've heard of it:

    Lose points when you actually lose a fight you are actually doing?

    Now this may seem rocket science but it isn't. If you want people to lose points then make them lose points fairly.

    The system as it is now, it's just High level players feeding on low level players until the latter is completely out.

    ---------

    You guys are so afraid of real competition that you claim that you defend PVP where you actually don't.

    If you really like PVP, why don't all High level player go to their own Rank?

    Why do I see 50k Hit points Heroes in Rank 3?

    If you are really for PvP and a fair fight, you should defend that every Rank should be exclusive to its Player level.

    As in "If you are a Player level 40, you can't join a rank 4 Event.

    Now that's PVP.

    PvP it not "Hey, I bought tokens for 2 years so now I just park my heroes and feed on newbies".
    Can you please not put double line breaks after every sentence you write?  The forum wastes enough screen space as it is without you tripling it....

    Nothing is "fair" when the AI is fighting for you, but no one really wants to transition to a real-time versus where you fight another human, so this is what we work with.

    First of all, I have no issue fighting rosters of equal and greater strength - if that is where the points are, then that is who I fight.  But I am also competing against weaker rosters for the same rewards, so I hit them too.  Where is the fairness in one group of players only fighting 4* rosters for the same rewards as another group of players that can only fight 5* rosters?????
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nitefox, when a player has multiple champed 5*s they can only queue double champed 5* teams. Sometimes a champed 5*/4* team. When get to around or above 1k MMR opens a little bit.

    So "newbies" are protected.
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bowgentle said:
    We don't feed on newbies.
    All we see from 0 to 1100+ are other 5* rosters.
    I don't know how often we've explained that already.
    There is no feeding on newbies.
    That might be true of maxed champed 5*s, but it most definitely is not true for all 5* rosters as my champed 4* roster regularly gets hit in pvp when I am below 900 by champed 5* teams that are on low enough points that they aren't even worth the retaliation if I did beat them.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Crowl said:
    Bowgentle said:
    We don't feed on newbies.
    All we see from 0 to 1100+ are other 5* rosters.
    I don't know how often we've explained that already.
    There is no feeding on newbies.
    That might be true of maxed champed 5*s, but it most definitely is not true for all 5* rosters as my champed 4* roster regularly gets hit in pvp when I am below 900 by champed 5* teams that are on low enough points that they aren't even worth the retaliation if I did beat them.
    Depends on slice, time left in PVP, etc.

    Besides, a champed 4 roster is not a newbie.
  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    Well, whatever you guys may thing, how PvP is now doesn't work. I myself just put a couple of 5 stars in rank 4, and just left them there, focusing on PvE which is way more fun. No one attacks them, and I attack someone like once in 4 hours. If you call that playing PVP, well, then nothing more to say.

    But one fact is true: MPQ is the first game I ever saw promoting "not to play" a mode. And multiple posts in this very thread are confirming that.

    The choice between ignoring that fact with stubbornness, or improving the pvp experience, is left to the Devs.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    nitefox1337 said:
    Well, whatever you guys may thing, how PvP is now doesn't work. I myself just put a couple of 5 stars in rank 4, and just left them there, focusing on PvE which is way more fun. No one attacks them, and I attack someone like once in 4 hours. If you call that playing PVP, well, then nothing more to say.

    But one fact is true: MPQ is the first game I ever saw promoting "not to play" a mode. And multiple posts in this very thread are confirming that.

    The choice between ignoring that fact with stubbornness, or improving the pvp experience, is left to the Devs.

    We'll have to agree to disagree. There are whole alliances devoted to playing PVP only (go check the recruitment boards, way more PVP-only than PVE-only). The way you feel about PVP many feel about PVE. I like that I can play PVP whenever I want; I don't like that I'm held to a clock and forced to play PVE hours on end if I want to be competitive, regardless of roster strength. 
  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    @Brigby

    Bump for answers/comments for two Yes/No questions.

    Edit: Forgot to ping Brigby when I first posted.
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 587 Critical Contributor
    PvP is enjoyed by those that play it properly. It's highly competitive, and not in a "who can clear teams of goons who barely fight back as quickly as possible" way.

    I often hit newbies, but it's usually for 5pts or less as I get towards the end of climb (1k upwards) and I'm farming ISO a bit. I generally avoid hitting the same player more than once. Up until that point I'll be hitting double champed 5*s largely.

    PvP is ruled by big rosters, how could it not be? Build your roster via PvE, then come to the party. If you don't have the patience and can afford to spend some then this will accelerate, but you don't need to. And maybe try LINE.

    Whatever you do, please don't expect to be able to just take easy rewards - it's PvP, you will get hit...
  • nitefox1337
    nitefox1337 Posts: 80 Match Maker
    edited May 2017
    Update after some time:

    I am now completely ignoring the PVP aspect of this game. It's messy, inconsistent, unfair, and false. I do not like to just throw words. So here's what I mean:

    - by "Messy" I mean that the Events are literally all over the place. There's an unnecessary event timing which is confusing. Why not instead declare that all Events are 1 week long but you will get rewards for ranking placements every 2 days? Voila! Done. There you go.

    - Inconsistent: Especially if you are a new Player, you never have any idea of what to expect. Last week I entered a Rank 5 tournament and managed to reach 575 points for the 10 CP. This week there's no way I can even reach 100 with all the roosters in the tournament. Because of that, I can't plan a Rooster, a strategy, an approach. It's just random levels of Roosters you encounter.

    Example: It's like Playing Diablo in Normal and encountering an Inferno Level Diablo right in the middle of the map next to a level 1 Zombie.

    Fix: You shouldn't select Rankings anymore. You should always join a Ranking based on your level and the average level of your Rooster.

    note: If you do not like this fix, it means that you are unwilling to compete against your peers, thus accepting a real challenge, and that what you call "PvP" is just feeding on newbies.

    - Unfair: I kept complaining about that. Will repeat it again. Losing fights while fighting will never make sense. You can't punish someone for actually be in a Fight regardless of if he's winning or losing. "Oh, look, while you were busy playing, 10 guys owned you! enjoy!". You can't even shield yourself while you are fighting.

    Fix: Give priority to the guy who is online: No losing points if you are actually playing against others Rosters. How to detect that? Simple. For 15 minutes after winning a game, you have an unbreakable shield, even in a fight. Easy. Fixed.

    -------------- But that's not all...

    Attacking Players have all the advantages. They can boost (literally pay to win). They can match for Critical. (AI never matches criticals unless it's a straight line). And they can chose who to Attack. That's not how PVP works. Which brings the topic to the last part...

    - False: There is no PVP in MPQ. That's not PVP. You listing your Rooster for others to engage, while you engage idle Hero Teams is NOT PvP. That's something like "Rooster Listing for Progressive Reward and Ranking", or whatever this is called. But that's definitely not PvP.

    Therefore arguments like "This game has enough PvE, dont change PvP", or "Losing points makes it PvP" are illogical. Because, again, there's no PvP. In MPQ you're always in PvE. It's just that the game borrows some guy's Rooster he last played and won with. That's it.


    --------- Enough bashing, here's why I play MPQ:

    The "Normal" part of the game which is called PvE is way more fun. I am talking about the stories. You can analyze the enemy, prepare your rooster, think of strategies and then execute your tactics accordingly. You even have to manage your Rooster's health so pick Heroes carefully. In the Stories There's depth, tactics, fun powers. And when your tactics pays of, it's super fun. And there's even that "PvP" you guys are talking about. Yes. As soon as the AI starts matching, it's exactly what you guys call "PvP".


    Bottom line:There's no technical difference between PvP and PvE. It's just the Heroes you fight do not belong to anyone. So even if you beat a player's heroes or the development team's heroes, your opponent is always the same: the AI.





  • optimus2861
    optimus2861 Posts: 1,233 Chairperson of the Boards
    Fightmastermpq said:
    No the problem is exactly as Smokey described - you want PvP to be PvE.  If you remove point loss there is no vP, it's just P.  The winner is the person who plays the most.

    This is pretty much how Future Fight's PVP system works.No point losses on defense. Only if you attack and lose. You get 10 matches per day, refillable (costing crystals) twice per day, so max 30 matches per day. There aren't progression rewards per se; you get tokens after each fight which are redeemable in a store for certain items. Winning gets you more tokens. Awards are distributed globally at the end of the week and are on a % basis, with heftier rewards for the top .. 100 or 50, I forget. And a big one for the top finisher; though to finish first, you actually have to pay in more crystals through the week than you'll get back. The playerbase is divided into five leagues; top 20% in each league get promoted; bottom 20% get demoted. Rewards get better the higher you go of course.

    Point being, there are other PVP systems out there besides MPQ's chosen gongshow version of it.

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