6*'s: is it time?

broll

crackninja said:

I completely understand the negative reactions, I just wonder where we're going from here if it's not time.  I don't have any 5*'s at more than 6 covers, and I must hoard for 6+ months in order to probably max cover a set of 3 characters.  All signs point towards no desire to make it any easier to cover older characters, so this doesn't seem likely to change until there is a new shiny above them.
I don't see it as the end of mpq if they don't move forward, but I do see a lot of people eventually completing their realistic goals in this game, understanding the sisyphean task of completing even 9 or 10 5*'s to give them solid options in the tier, and losing interest.

- Continue making 3* and 4* until we're buried in them.
- Vault most of them so despite having 60-70 most of them will be useless to the vast majority of user base.
- Continue ruining the game with continued delusion + an absolutely horrible 'solution' to delusion aka vaulting.

Jarvind

I think we'll get there inevitably. However, power creep is already rampant - just take a look at the newer 4* characters. New Rocket & Groot is basically a 5* without the extra health, compared to X-Force Wolverine, the perpetual punching bag. And that's just within one tier.

I'm all for leaning on the brakes as far as a new tier is concerned - there's really no need for it until there are at least 25-30 fivestar characters. Whatever the next step is, I'd actually rather it be a way of modifying existing characters than just opening up a new tier where dudes start at level 500 with 70k HP, but that's probably wishful thinking on my part.

Borstock

I don't think the game needs a second generally inaccessible tier of characters that would only hurt your scaling if you actually leveled them.

carrion_pigeons

I think if they were going to add a 6* tier, it would have to be by completely revamping the structure of the game.

I do see value in having a tier of characters which keep the whales out of the pool everyone else plays in.  But scaling issues mean that dramatic level differences hurt the game experience in PvE too much to justify.

I can't help but think of WoW's solution to the problem, which they eventually just had to bite the bullet and do: split PvP and PvE apart completely and tune them separately.  I think if MPQ ever gets its act together enough to allow for the implementation of that much coding, that's the direction they'll eventually have to take, also.

I mean, they can't just let the 5* tier fill up with F2P guys, with nothing above it.  The whales will eventually lose interest and their business model will fail.

broll

Borstock said:

I don't think the game needs a second generally inaccessible tier of characters that would only hurt your scaling if you actually leveled them.

If they truly go forward with SCL based scaling this would no longer be a concern (for PvE at least).  Having a 255 character would be more a benefit if you're in SCL 3 fighting nodes scales for a roster that only has a few champed 3*s.  This is the way it should have been from the start because it's extremely counter-intuitive that higher levels = bad in the early game...

Milk Jugz

I can't say just no, it's too short. 

Just no. 

veny

Cant imagine the scalling (we dont really need 4*s to become useless) or efficient way how to get these 6*s (1% from legendary tokens? Less? It would become 0,XX% with multiple 6*s - power that relies purely on luck or amount of money spent).
But i can imagine 6* hero - ME.
I mean every player will be represented by 6* hero - you could choose your own preffered colours, your shield levels will increase your strenght and power of your skills - fair 6* for everyone

turbomoose

The idea was always meant to be that 5* characters were the elite 

I think the game makers have lost sight of that as some of the 5* characters really shouldn't be. 

I don't think 6* is the way forward TBH more of an overhaul of the events and rewards is a better idea 

The game will continue to be interesting if they carry on with bringing in new story lines and more of these events where strategy is important rather than power 

I also think 1* characters are no longer needed but that's a different topic 

mckauhu

6*s inevitably? Maybe yes.
6*s now? Hell no.

DyingLegend

No, absolutely, no. 

byc

We don't want it.

But it's coming.

hunky_funky

Unless it's a 6* Stan Lee as a joke, with powers like "Cameo" and "Ultimate Re-write". And you can obtain him once a year, at full Moon, when Venus crossing Mars or something, one cover a time.

carrion_pigeons

When F2P veterans are successfully competing with most whales, that's a problem for their business model.  That's a given.  So the question is, how do they "fix" it (by which I mean, keep it broken, of course)?  They have to offer something via real money purchases that can't plausibly be obtained through gameplay (at least not for a long time).  The newest 5*s don't fit that bill anymore, because a growing number of vets can compete on that axis without bothering to get the newest 5*.

They have three choices:
1) Introduce a new tier of play.  The problem with this is that they can't do this and also keep the old tiers as meaningful as before.  No one will spend thousands of dollars on CP buy clubs to get 5*s if they aren't the best thing in the game, and if 6*s are harder to get than 5*s, then no one (well, hardly anyone) will spend tens of thousands of dollars to get them, either.  So they would have to squish the other tiers together, but in that case all they're really doing is just creating a new 5* tier with nobody in it.  So the second choice is:
2) Power creep the 5*s.  Essentially, if every new 5*s dominates the metagame, then you have incentive to chase each new one.  They did this to the 3* tier for a while, and they're doing it with the 4* tier now also, but the top end of the game requires bigger jumps in order to maintain interest.  But at the same time, it creates a shallower metagame, which makes the game less interesting overall.  This will eventually start causing attrition in its own right.  Honestly, they could do this a bit more on the nose by occasionally lowering the star rating of characters - make older character more common (by being openable in lower level tokens) but also weaker.  It's basically the same as what they've been doing, but institutionalized, and disguised in the form of buffs instead of nerfs.
3) Ignore the problem and hope it goes away.  (It will, eventually, along with the game itself.)

I guess there is a fourth choice, which is to change their business model to something less awful and more sustainable, but somehow I doubt that they're going to do that.

MissChinch

The only way this game works is by continually pushing back the finish line.  Its not a knock on the game, its just conceptually very simple.  They need to release new characters for people to want to acquire, they can keep doing it on the 4* tier, and cause problems there or they can move on and focus on 5*s.  The 3* tier is pretty filled up, the 4* tier is there too, but there is plenty of space on the 5* tier.

They need to start crafting a believable means for 4*s players to transition into the 5* tier and give more opportunities to obtain the characters.  Make the progression interesting for about a year and doable for the next 2-3, and while they do that open up 6*s for the whales and super hardcore.

Its either take a **** on the 4* pool by polluting them with more and more new characters that are either not any better (uninteresting and no draw) or are better (make previous characters useless) OR they get a good transition in place for people to move to the 5* tier and pump out interesting characters there, which would necessitate a more exclusive tier for the people into that (6*s)

I don't care about the specifics of how they do it, they just need to move off the 4* tier soon or be OK with ruining some of it... balancing 40-50 characters is extremely hard, it would be unrealistic to expect it to be done well (I'm quite impressed with how they've done the 3* tier, but even there the new additions of 3* thanos and 3* strange have wrecked the balance)

jamesh

Maybe a 4.5 star tier would be more useful.  Looking at the levels of other tiers, it looks like there is space for something in between.

Looking at 3 star characters:

• starting level is slightly below the max level of a 1 star.
• max level is slightly above the max champion level of a 2 star.

And 4 star characters:

• starting level is slightly below max level of a 2 star.
• max level is slightly above the max champion level of a 3 star.

If they'd continued this pattern, then what was released as 5 star characters would have been an extra tier away.

I don't think it'd be the end of the world if they added something in between that was slightly easier to obtain than current 5 stars, but higher tier than 4 stars.  Maybe something like:

• start level: 150
• max level: 380
• max champion level: 440
  

Qubort

So introduce 6 stars when a tiny percent of people have a single fully covered 5 star? That makes perfect sense.

MissChinch

Qubort said:

So introduce 6 stars when a tiny percent of people have a single fully covered 5 star? That makes perfect sense.

They introduced silver surfer 2 years ago...  now new players can be pulling their first LT with a ~15% chance to get a 5* within the first few weeks of playing...

The issue is more that theres a traffic jam at the 4* tier, more characters coming in, poor 5* transition mechanism and a disproportionately small 5* tier compared to the tier below it...  That transition needs to be smoothed out so the 4* tier doesn't get any worse, which would necessitate easier access to 5* characters and more 5* character releases (instead of 4*s).  

That's when a 6* tier would be necessary, and might as well start it up sooner rather than later so there isn't just 1 or 2 characters in it that are going to be disproportionately covered compared to other characters...  I'd be all for all players, upon hitting rank 100 (and retroactively for those there), getting 5000HP as a welcome to SCL9 prize and the 6* tier to start with 6 characters in it.

Bowgentle

MissChinch said:

Qubort said:

So introduce 6 stars when a tiny percent of people have a single fully covered 5 star? That makes perfect sense.

They introduced silver surfer 2 years ago...  now new players can be pulling their first LT with a ~15% chance to get a 5* within the first few weeks of playing...

The issue is more that theres a traffic jam at the 4* tier, more characters coming in, poor 5* transition mechanism and a disproportionately small 5* tier compared to the tier below it...  That transition needs to be smoothed out so the 4* tier doesn't get any worse, which would necessitate easier access to 5* characters and more 5* character releases (instead of 4*s).  

That's when a 6* tier would be necessary, and might as well start it up sooner rather than later so there isn't just 1 or 2 characters in it that are going to be disproportionately covered compared to other characters...  I'd be all for all players, upon hitting rank 100 (and retroactively for those there), getting 5000HP as a welcome to SCL9 prize and the 6* tier to start with 6 characters in it.

Please, just stop.

They'll roll out the 6* tier exactly like the 4* and 5* tier - one character at a time, spaced months apart.
That's how they've always handled things, no reason to expect that to change.

Surfer has been out since October 2015, that's about 18 months, not two years.

No, we don't need the 6* tier.
But we will get it once there are 25+ 5s, and they'll roll it out like all the other tiers.

broll

Qubort said:

So introduce 6 stars when a tiny percent of people have a single fully covered 5 star? That makes perfect sense.

As long as 6* take the 5* equivalent rarity spot 5*s would start becoming more attainable as a result.  Make the CP packs only 5* and 6*

MissChinch

Bowgentle said:

MissChinch said:

Qubort said:

So introduce 6 stars when a tiny percent of people have a single fully covered 5 star? That makes perfect sense.

They introduced silver surfer 2 years ago...  now new players can be pulling their first LT with a ~15% chance to get a 5* within the first few weeks of playing...

The issue is more that theres a traffic jam at the 4* tier, more characters coming in, poor 5* transition mechanism and a disproportionately small 5* tier compared to the tier below it...  That transition needs to be smoothed out so the 4* tier doesn't get any worse, which would necessitate easier access to 5* characters and more 5* character releases (instead of 4*s).  

That's when a 6* tier would be necessary, and might as well start it up sooner rather than later so there isn't just 1 or 2 characters in it that are going to be disproportionately covered compared to other characters...  I'd be all for all players, upon hitting rank 100 (and retroactively for those there), getting 5000HP as a welcome to SCL9 prize and the 6* tier to start with 6 characters in it.

Please, just stop.

They'll roll out the 6* tier exactly like the 4* and 5* tier - one character at a time, spaced months apart.
That's how they've always handled things, no reason to expect that to change.

Surfer has been out since October 2015, that's about 18 months, not two years.

No, we don't need the 6* tier.
But we will get it once there are 25+ 5s, and they'll roll it out like all the other tiers.

You're missing the point... completely.

The penultimate tier was much SMALLER when they introduced 5*s, so they're behind with letting people progress, and the 4* tier is going to continue to suffer for it. 

Introducing 6*s by itself isn't going to fix anything. I'll start with the most immediate problem so its easier to follow.

Complaints have been rampant for months, first snarky comments that new 4* characters would never get covered, then complaints about dilution making new characters flat out less appealing because again it would be a long time before they're useful, then the fiasco around vaulting, all symptoms of a bad transition from 4* to 5*... 

On the 5* tier side of things there have always been complaints about how infrequent the random the progress is and how difficult it is to cover characters...  D3/Demi ended up using a split in tokens as a bandaid for the poor transition, so we got Latest Legends and Classic Legends and plenty of strategies on how to best game it to get useful covers.  Additionally, the roll out was so slow of the 5*s that OML, PHX and SS were far more prevalent than any other characters and provided a dismally boring 5* game.  The fact that the tier was so lopsidedly covered caused balancing issues, and led to the situation where a nerf to OML amounted to wrecking scaling and crushing gameplay because he was one of only 2 or 3 5* characters that had been around long enough for people to have substantially developed.

This wasn't some unavoidable issue or a problem that "just happens" because of the type of game, it took months of focused new 4* character releases coupled with a very poor 4*-5* transition mechanic to make it this bad. 

We're looking at 50+ characters at the 4* tier already, each new character makes balancing that tier that much more difficult.  Power creep is a necessity to keep interest in new characters, but its also going to obsolete old character.  These gameplay problems, and all of the complaints on the forum will just continue to get worse with more 4* characters. 

New character focus should have long ago switched to the 5* tier over the 4* tier.  In order for this to be successful better mechanics, or tweaks to the existing mechanics, are needed for transitioning players from 4* into 5*.

Keep in mind that D3 and Demi would probably like to continue to make money, and they have a section of the user base interested in paying money for exclusivity...  If they were to just make all the 5* content much easier to obtain by the majority then this section of the user base needs some way to continue to pay for premium content, THATS the reason a 6* tier is necessary.

Don't mistake my expectations for what D3/Demi SHOULD do, I absolutely expect them to roll a 6* tier out far too late and far too slowly, run into the exact same issues they ran into with the 5* tier, and while they drag their feet, I expect them to continue to feed the dumpster fire that is the 4* tier, occasionally throwing bandaids out like different types of tokens and vaulting, but not addressing the underlying problem that got em there in the first place.

On the plus side, I DO expect we'll actually get to see, first hand, more of the problems stagnating on the 4* tier will cause, making speculation unnecessary.