40 Card Deck?

Laeuftbeidir

I'm confused that you're using the present, not the future @brigby : When you ask, please ask if the 40 card decks were a thing since the beginning. If they say yes..
.. Well,that'd explain a lot. And I don't even know where to start with thinking about consequences.

.. like original Baral, who would never had been a problem at all, since he'd run out of steam after some minutes of looping.

If it's an upcoming change, it needs to be announced before..
I summon you, @shteev!

/edited unnecessary salty news away

Ohboy

How is everyone interpreting this a different way than I. This is the trials entry fee all over again. 

Brigby appears to be confirming that a deck is 40 cards, ie. You can't get 5 copies of wrath of God before the deck cycles. 

Actually this is laughably easy to prove for anyone has doubts and want to highlight this with solid proof instead of "this happened to me before!" . Just build a cycle deck and run a quick 40 card cycle and document what comes out, in video form if possible. 

Shteev, I choose you! 

Shteev, use science! 

khurram

There was no confusion about it. Initial deck of 40 cards with 4 copies of each card and once all 4 copies of a card are cast a new deck of 40 cards is generated and is added to the bottom. There was a detailed forum post last year by @Hibernum_JC explaining this. Back when he used to actively communicate whenever there was a discussion.

deletedgone

Ohboy said:

How is everyone interpreting this a different way than I. This is the trials entry fee all over again. 

Brigby appears to be confirming that a deck is 40 cards, ie. You can't get 5 copies of wrath of God before the deck cycles. 

Actually this is laughably easy to prove for anyone has doubts and want to highlight this with solid proof instead of "this happened to me before!" . Just build a cycle deck and run a quick 40 card cycle and document what comes out, in video form if possible. 

@Ohboy I did just that test a while ago using a creatureless Ob deck.  I didn't video it, but used a spreadsheet.  Four of each card came up for a total of 40.  Everything performed as expected.

I have also seen screen shots and battle logs of the 5 Talent case cited in my original post (before the 50 card Saheeli glitch was confirmed).

Also your "laughable easy" test does not account for the numerous fetch possibilities that complicate things.  It seems reasonable to revisit the originally provided information from the developer, and see if it is still valid.
 

Ohboy

spesler said:

Ohboy said:

How is everyone interpreting this a different way than I. This is the trials entry fee all over again. 

Brigby appears to be confirming that a deck is 40 cards, ie. You can't get 5 copies of wrath of God before the deck cycles. 

Actually this is laughably easy to prove for anyone has doubts and want to highlight this with solid proof instead of "this happened to me before!" . Just build a cycle deck and run a quick 40 card cycle and document what comes out, in video form if possible. 

@Ohboy I did just that test a while ago using a creatureless Ob deck.  I didn't video it, but used a spreadsheet.  Four of each card came up for a total of 40.  Everything performed as expected.

I have also seen screen shots and battle logs of the 5 Talent case cited in my original post (before the 50 card Saheeli glitch was confirmed).

Also your "laughable easy" test does not account for the numerous fetch possibilities that complicate things.  It seems reasonable to revisit the originally provided information from the developer, and see if it is still valid.
 

You can decide to build a deck without fetch. Is that really that hard a hurdle? 

I did it with a kiora last week with similar results. 

Laeuftbeidir

I tried it today again, and with gather the pack I was able to get around a dozen copies of the Scraphead on the board. The whole strategie of this and other draw based decks I use is to get far more than four copies.
Maybe the fetch does in fact kind of overruns the deck restrictions?

shteev

Ohboy said:

How is everyone interpreting this a different way than I. This is the trials entry fee all over again. 

Brigby appears to be confirming that a deck is 40 cards, ie. You can't get 5 copies of wrath of God before the deck cycles. 

Actually this is laughably easy to prove for anyone has doubts and want to highlight this with solid proof instead of "this happened to me before!" . Just build a cycle deck and run a quick 40 card cycle and document what comes out, in video form if possible. 

Shteev, I choose you! 

Shteev, use science! 

I could, and I've thought about it, too.

The thing is, tho, this isn't my job.

Brigby

Hi Everyone. I was able to get answers for the second round of questions I sent over to the developers. You can find them below:

Will players' Color Mastery ranks be affected when certain cards become restricted from PvP?
It will remain as it is right now, but there are plans to adjust it as we go along to fit more within our restrictions

What happens when you get to the end of your 40 card deck?
40 new cards are generated in your library, as if you just started the game.

How does fetching the next X cards from your deck work if you go past the end of the deck?
It generates a new 40 card library, then fetches from it. So yes, anything that draws a specific card can draw infinite copies of said card.

What about destroying cards out of your deck (i.e. Gather the Pack?)
Again, it generates a new 40 card library, then destroys the specified cards.

What is the point of Aven Mindcensor / Compelling Argument?
The point is removing current options from your opponent until they recreate a deck. When a deck is created, it makes 4 copies of each card, so destroying/exiling the next one essentially removes that option until they either cycle through their entire deck or forcefully fetch that card type and none others exist. The other point is Exiling moves them to Exile, from where none of the Graveyard abilities work, such as Embalm. If you exile a creature with Embalm, for example, it cannot trigger it's embalm ability.

Are there any UI plans to allow players to view their Graveyard and/or Exile stack?
Not at the moment.

When will players that won the deck-building contest get to see their names tied in-game to their respective Theme decks?
I unfortunately do not have a specific date - it will be coming, but the problem is timing at this point.

Will any other Masterpieces be buffed? (For example, Lightning Greaves)
It's possible, but at the moment there are no plans for that.

What can players expect for PvP rewards when the weekly events are adjusted?
(Editor's Note: This is a lot of information to display, considering the 4 different tiers, and the number of events adjusted. There will be some information available in the Release Notes, however for more specific details, please reach out to me personally. Thanks!)

Laeuftbeidir

@Brigby
Thanks a lot for these answers. This was more insightful than I expected!
So exiling cards from the library is kind of useless (since it's not targeted, exiling from the battlefield looks great! ), and everything concerning deck size remains as it is.

I think a couple of these answers belong to questions from the pre-release thread?

Thuran

So, aven mindcensor is officially one of the worst cards in the entire game! 

Seriously, the card is completely pointless and has an ability that does NOTHING to hamper your opponent. Considering the price, this 3/2 card would be considered an unplayable common, and I feel really bad for the poor sod that opens this worthless card in a pack >< (probably going to be me, knowing my luck)

The thing is, exiling specific cards is worthless if your opponent just gets 4 of them handed to them whenever they need them. 

I get the feeling that JC is not actually a paper magic player, as one of the most basic concepts of competitive magic is that milling yourself does not impact the game. People often argue "But what if you mill your super awesome dude?" to which the correct answer is "what if that card was at the bottom of the library?". 

This is basic magic, one of the first lessons any newbie to the game should learn: That milling cards does not take away options. And this scenario is even worse, as you cannot actively try to mill your opponent into losing the game, and if they need a copy of that awesome card, they get 4 copies for free at any time! 

Sorry if I sound harsh, that is not the intended tone of voice, but I am completely baffled that JC has completely failed to grasp such a basic concept of the paper game! This feels like a geography test answer that lists Africa as a country XD 


However thanks a lot @Brigby for answering those concerns Even just a little clarification goes a really long way! Really appreciated! 

deletedgone

@Brigby Fantastic!  Thank you, again, for following up.

Ohboy

The first thing I thought of when I saw that card was that scry was going to be in the next expansion. 

toastie

Brigby said:

What is the point of Aven Mindcensor / Compelling Argument?
The point is removing current options from your opponent until they recreate a deck. When a deck is created, it makes 4 copies of each card, so destroying/exiling the next one essentially removes that option until they either cycle through their entire deck or forcefully fetch that card type and none others exist. The other point is Exiling moves them to Exile, from where none of the Graveyard abilities work, such as Embalm. If you exile a creature with Embalm, for example, it cannot trigger it's embalm ability.

I'm sorry, but this is a load of ****.

This effect does nothing useful.

There is basically no top-deck manipulation, so you can never go after specific cards with this. It just changes your opponents next random draw with a different random draw. You may hit something good, but you also may just get them closer to the next good card. It makes sense in paper, where you can actually mill out your opponent, but that isn't even an option here. All this accomplishes is slightly increasing variance in an almost undetectable way. 

This really feels like a case of putting almost no actual thought into how cards are adapted for MTGPQ, almost to the point of lacking an understanding of how the game even works, and completely failing to make something even remotely interesting or fun.

Phase

Certain actions probably refresh deck contents which is how you can run Feed the Pack decks with only one creature (usually scrapheap scrounger). I thought this was known?

By the way Aven Mindcensor doesn't deny anything and is one of the worst rares in the set. There is currently no use in keeping the top card of your library or exiling your opponent's top card, since you can't ever know what it is with cards we currently have. If you could stack it in any way, we would have Bring to Light decks, another nigh-useless card in the absence of library fixing.

When you mill an opponent in the paper game, you can mill either bomb or random card. All you are doing is reducing from their pool an equivalent amount of each over a long period of time. By milling random cards and not bombs, you are just as likely to help your opponent as you are to hurt them... until they run out of cards, in which case you win. Which has no equivalent here in MtGPQ. Unless there is a library-stacking mechanic in Hour of Devastation, I suggest a complete redesign of the currently useless Aven Mindcensor's ability.

RE: 40 cards I'm willing to bet the quantities of cards within those 40 cards are not fixed, which explains everything in the OP and this thread. I'm not sure if I have a preference one way or the other, to be honest. I suppose if I knew I wouldn't draw a card I opened the game with three of, I would play differently.... but I sort of do that already. We draw enough cards in this game that it shouldn't matter too much.

Laeuftbeidir

Exile the next creature(s) in the library might be a little change that would actually add value in certain circumstances. Right now, I don't know why anyone would play this card.

shteev

Everything that needs to be said about exiling the top card in your opponent's library has been said by my esteemed colleagues above.

D3/Hibernum could really, really use somebody who understands Magic:The Gathering to be involved in making this game.

hawkyh1

roil spout + exile that creature from top of library
would temporarily reduce the chance of a single
powerful creature? (a 2 card move similar in
function to the masterpiece equivalence)

HH

James13

It's a little over-complicated, but you could in theory return creatures to the top of the opponent's deck then exile them.  Bounce->Minister of inquiries on restricted or Lashweed Lurker/Gone missing in unrestricted.

Not entirely pointless, no.  But over-complicated.

Thuran

But in terms of aven mindcensor, they would still draw that card BEFORE the exile effect triggers, so they would draw the creature you bounced to the top of the library  

James13

Thuran said:

But in terms of aven mindcensor, they would still draw that card BEFORE the exile effect triggers, so they would draw the creature you bounced to the top of the library  

You'd have to bounce two, putting the card you want exiled most on top before the other in that scenario.  Still possible.  But as I said: over complicated currently.  I think I also overlooked engulf the shore for unrestricted as an option.