Maybe it's time to expand rewards again

Quebbster

Starfury said:

WEBGAS said:

Sorry but I don't agree. There are several holes in your statement because placement rewards is not based upon your ability, nor to your optimal play but indeed on your "lucky" to find a bracket that allows you to place well.

I'd be happy to even find a slice that allows me to place well.

Slice 2 starts at 18:00, which means there's no way I can finish a sub,
Slice 3 starts at 23:00 which means there's no way I can get the initial 4 clears done.
the other slices start during the night or while I'm at work, so they're completely out of the question.

I'm CET too, so this is my exact issue. I did love the one hour shift when the US started Daylight Savings Time early and I could play slice 3 with an end time at 10PM instead. 9PM would arguably be ideal though.

Quebbster

The time slices really should be revisited since the system was designed when nodes reloaded in two and a half hours. It used to be a fast clear at the start of the node, new clears when the nodes reloaded (whether it was 2½ hours, 8 hours or something else), and then a big grind at the end to get whatever Points remained. Now the big grind happens at the start of the sub, so putting the end times an hour or so earlier would actually get it closer to the original intent.

Bloody_Marvel

WEBGAS said:

It's not fair that people with less scores have been awardered with better prizes.

And this happens in the top 10 as well as in the top 100 ranges. 

There's a serious flaw in this logic. I understand you're comparing scores across brackets, but that's not a fair comparison. A bracket which started later will never have scores as high as a bracket which started earlier. There's less recovery time for later brackets.

Within a bracket higher scores always mean better placement and better prizes.

I always sign up early, and I usually start playing the moment the sub starts, which probably places me in the only "fair" bracket. If you enter a sub after the initial start time you've either put yourself at a disadvantage, or you need to maximize your advantage by waiting for a new bracket to start.

Waiting for a flip can be part of the strategy as it requires additional commitment to increase your chances for a higher finish. You'll have to continuously keep track of whether a flip has taken place to take advantage of this option. And let's not forget that this option is available to you, just like it is available to anybody else.

Starfury said:

I'd be happy to even find a slice that allows me to place well.

Slice 2 starts at 18:00, which means there's no way I can finish a sub,
Slice 3 starts at 23:00 which means there's no way I can get the initial 4 clears done.
the other slices start during the night or while I'm at work, so they're completely out of the question.

I would be very much in favor of more slices. I'm in pretty much the same predicament.

I always choose Slice 2, but that means I need to get up at 05:00 so I can be at work at 06:30, then head home at 15:00 so I can finish the sub between 16:00 and 18:00, assuming there are no traffic jams. Then start the new sub after which I can have dinner, and pretty much go to bed.

More slices would also mean fewer brackets, so that might go a long way to resolve WEBGAS's complaints as well.

WEBGAS

Guys it's not only the time slice I was referring to, but the lottery to find a bracket with less than 50 player at the beginning, so if you're fast enough you will get in top 10 and will have  a "treasure" of 50/100 points that, if you manage to play optimal during other subs,  will allow you to remain in top10.

My further complain is that some very lucky (r smart  ) players, are able to join an easy bracket and reach the top 10 with 10k less points than the others.... this happens everytime, each PVE and it's not fair.

Progression rewards could be the solution for this mess.

NewMcG

WEBGAS said:

My further complain is that some very lucky (r smart  ) players, are able to join an easy bracket and reach the top 10 with 10k less points than the others.... this happens everytime, each PVE and it's not fair.

As many have already said, that's the roll of the dice involved with starting late. It isn't that they "luck" into a convenient bracket every time, where nobody feels like playing competitively. They start late and jump in a fresh bracket, utilizing the coordination tools that some have put in place to find out when brackets flip. (I'm a dummy, so I just play from the start every time and have to slog through for my high placement rewards if I want them.)

It's absolutely fair, and you yourself referred to them as "smart". If someone has figured out a way to minimize their effort and still reap the benefits in a non-cheating way, good for them. I've had plenty of events where I wish I could have done the same, (due to time conflicts, etc.) but just don't have that in my realm of knowledge. I won't begrudge those who know how.

WEBGAS

Maybe I am only envy.....the only few time I joined later I found a bracket with 800 or 950 players, so I was doomed from the start 

Bowgentle

WEBGAS said:

Maybe I am only envy.....the only few time I joined later I found a bracket with 800 or 950 players, so I was doomed from the start 

Joining as 950+ has never stopped me from getting T10.
It's only ever 15-20 people who do 7/7 anyway.
They may have a couple of hours headstart, you can easily make that up with a perfect end grind.

Megdar

WEBGAS said:

Guys it's not only the time slice I was referring to, but the lottery to find a bracket with less than 50 player at the beginning, so if you're fast enough you will get in top 10 and will have  a "treasure" of 50/100 points that, if you manage to play optimal during other subs,  will allow you to remain in top10.

My further complain is that some very lucky (r smart  ) players, are able to join an easy bracket and reach the top 10 with 10k less points than the others.... this happens everytime, each PVE and it's not fair.

Progression rewards could be the solution for this mess.

Like I already said in this thread. THIS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LUCK

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g24uo61ITTveZrUGx4ZY5nMoJp-n1NCxq5r4WMhAJU0/edit

People coordinate and call bracket flip. Go see this sheet

Dragon_Nexus

When I finished in 16th with 67,000 points I was something like 300 points away from 10th and 600 points from 1st.
It's bonkers...

Quebbster

Dragon_Nexus said:

When I finished in 16th with 67,000 points I was something like 300 points away from 10th and 600 points from 1st.
It's bonkers...

The
 big question is "how many more nodes would you have to play to beat them?" 300 and 600 points may not seem like much, but when most nodes are worth only double digit points it's actually a fairly big distance.

orbitalint

Quebbster said:
The big question is "how many more nodes would you have to play to beat them?" 300 and 600 points may not seem like much, but when most nodes are worth only double digit points it's actually a fairly big distance. 

Yes and no. Optimal strategy means having 0 minutes left on the clock with nothing left to grind to min presuming you did it in the right order - not grinding single point nodes (though there is a balance point early in a sub if you want to play literally around the clock on a 3 point min node to beat even optimal strategy. It's why they got rid of min points on the easy nodes.)

Optimal clears have a theoretical and practical max points possible. The further you are from the practical limit, the more ground you lose because of lost points from lack of regen time on the node and there is usually someone damn close to the practical optimal in a highly competitive bracket.

One sub can mean 50 or more points if you miss time your final grind by even 10 minutes. Those five minute refreshes of a single point or two on 9 nodes is the difference most of the time. Compound that over an event and you get the 300 points. 

Despite knowing the system, I still hate how awful, from a life perspective, you have to play to get top ten rewards for a 4*. It's not healthy and the devs should address it. Expand to top 25/50 for placement!

MissChinch

sh81 said:

Dragon_Nexus said:

When I finished in 16th with 67,000 points I was something like 300 points away from 10th and 600 points from 1st.
It's bonkers...

This is the logical conclusion of the game as it stands.

More and more peaople reach 4* and 5* status.  They all end up competing between themselves for the rewards, which means:

1) Everyone else is left behind
2) The most minor of differences seperate the elite when it comes to placement.  Literally seconds between starting.finish nodes becomes key to placement.

There is effectively a bottle neck, strangling the games player base as a whole.  Opening more clearance levels would do a lot to alieviate it, though to be honest if feels like just a matter of time before we run into the same issues again, just at a 5*/6* game and SCL 9....

I agree.

The game is fun as it is, just keep moving the bar back and go with what works.  Trying to find some magical equilibrium where people can stay at the 4*/5* tier yet feel like progress is being made AND be interested just wont happen.  Its quite impressive how well they have been able to integrate PvE and PvP between massively disparate rosters, its not perfect nor is it easy to do.  They're just setting themselves up to fail if they insist on trying to get the new player up to 4* land asap and keep the vet interested in the 4*/5* game.

Pushing the bar back and having power creep makes things more interesting...  Old characters are slowly getting buffs to increase their power, new characters are more interesting, theres anticipation around the newest 5*...  When things get jammed in the 4* tier I think they need to expand the 5* tier, introduce a new currency (and/or more of the existing) and lay down the foundation for 6*s. 

revskip

sh81 said:

Thats the point where we are now.

Moving between 1* and 2* is very linear, its like the training section of a new video game.
Moving between 2* and 3* is harder, you need to manage resource, but you also make pretty steady progress.

Put it this way, at no point do you feel that you are standing still.  Its a bit of a mountain to climb, but you continually make progress.

Then you hit 4* land and just..... stand still.  At least thats the feeling.

Ive mentioned a number of times, but thats where I am.

All 3* champed (bar starlord).  Such is the flow of 3* resource I champed Hawkeye within a few weeks, it was easy.  I expect the same of Starlord very soon (currently at 7 covers).

4*?  All rostered bar Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, Devil Dinosaur and Howard the Duck.
5 champs now, and no - not all the new 12.
The rest?  Only a couple outside the champs actually usable.

Where does this leave me?  Finsh top 50 PVE every time.  Cannot play optimally as I dont have the roster for it.  Cannot finish top 10,  Cannot dip into PVE.  Meaning my stream of rewards is limited to:

Lots of 3* = no real use
Lots of ISO = Never a bad thing
4* from progression only = one or two a week
CP from progression/node rewards only = days at a time to get 20/25 to pull an LT
50 % success rate on DDQ Crash = maybe one 4* a week

What does it add up to?  Being on a treadmill, running like mad, and getting nowwhere.

It will get better.  As you expand the 4* rosters eventually you'll end up with weeks where several of your 4* champs are boosted and it is pretty much easy mode.  This week was one of the first of those for me, had 4 of the 5 boosted 4*s champed and I was able to roll to one of my few top 5 finishes with relative ease.  

It does slow down significantly when you hit the 4* tier.  Instead of feeling progress on a daily or weekly basis you start measuring it in two week to a month periods.  As you continue to progress though it does get much easier.  Especially when you have boosted 4*s with synergy.  

broll

Bloody Marvel said:

MPQ is at its core a competitive game. That's why there are placement rewards. Winning a prize after fighting for it gives the player a sense of accomplishment, which is what makes the game addictive.

Never winning because it's all time based and none of the 5 time frames work on your schedule gives the player a sense of.... pick your favorite expletive...  it's competitive, but not in a good way, it's a race against time and a race against who has the least life and can schedule their life around the game.  Just doing 100% progression is time consuming enough much less clearing every node to 7 and doing it with temporal gymnastics to make sure you have the score before someone else.

Neuromancer

Yeah, I'm all for removing the competition from the Story tab (PvE), making events more like The Gauntlet. Either that, or have D3 release a lot more under the Prologue tab.

Bloody Marvel said:
MPQ is at its core a competitive game. That's why there are placement rewards. Winning a prize after fighting for it gives the player a sense of accomplishment, which is what makes the game addictive.

Which makes it odd that the Prologue/Intro doesn't prep you for this "core" at all. It's a bit of a bait and switch.

Wumpushunter

I dont see why its an issue. Leave placement how it is, but make the progression rewards better and more of them.  This lets those 5 people who can actually get decent rewards in placement happy, and makes the other 995 people in a slice happy as well.