Maybe it's time to expand rewards again

2

Comments

  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
    WEBGAS said:..

    PROGRESSION REWARDS ONLY could be the solution : if you manage to get the points required, you will get the rewards. No tricks, no Luck involved. Just play at your own time and peace, as much as you want, whenever you want.
    Fair and simple
    This is a horrible suggestion if you take into account how D3 works.

    Boss events are basically progression only and they ramp scaling up like crazy to keep from handing out rewards to everyone. So only big rosters can get thru it and everyone else has to give up.

    Gauntlet is another progression only pve somewhat easier to get thru, but since it's easier rewards suck.

    You say "play at your own time and pace", that's what current pve is! Yes I did my end clears at sub end time but my open clears did whenever. I got tons of ISO, tokens, hp and a single r&g cover. Progression only like gauntlet I would get half that loot. Progression only like boss events would burn health packs and boosts to get thru the crazy scaled side nodes.

    However, you gotta be smart about when joining a bracket so that's not at all intuitive. As the OP said give the one cover to t200 at least.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,301 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    The easiest solution is simply to open up further SCL's and open up more brackets. Cap each bracket (at least for PvE, at 500 players per bracket).  More brackets and SCL's will dilute the competition in each bracket and allow more people to earn better placement rewards instead of it being as crammed as it is now.  I don't even try for placement anymore, but I remember the days when it was possible if you just hit progression and did a few extra clears you could get decent placement and once in a while, top 10 (and I am not talking about noob brackets).  Part of it is the implementation of SCL themselves, before that you would compete against 1000 players of all types, now you are competing in general, against players of your own caliber.  I wonder too if this is a symptom of a shrinking player base and as that base shrinks, you tend to only find more competitive players and less casual players playing and there aren't the number of casual players there were a year or two ago? 
  • WEBGAS
    WEBGAS Posts: 474 Mover and Shaker
    bbigler said:
    The real problem with PVE is placement rewards.  Take those away and expand/buff the progression rewards, and people can then play PVE at their convenience instead of grinding for hours per session.  It's possible, but exhausting to get top10 in PVE.

    ........       ..........      ...........  

    I continued this exhausting schedule through the weekend.  It paid off though.  I placed 3rd and got 3 R&G covers, but I could have placed 1st if I didn't forget about clearing the nodes in the main event tag.  So, what did I learn from this?  I learned I could get some nice rewards with exhaustive playing, but that means there are tons of people doing the same thing.  This isn't healthy.

    D3, take away PVE placement rewards and help us live better lives, please.
    DITTO!
    This way of playing is killing the essential nature of the game.
    It should to be fun but instead it became a rush against time.
    There is no other way to get top 10 placement that alienate yourself for 3 streight hours a day, each single day....
    We are addicted and this is not good....
    I don't believe there are people who like the way it is.

    Please, give us progression rewards and stop this madness.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    While I agree the current system of grinding and speed-racing for placement is a hot mess, I don't think it's as simple as putting the placement rewards in as progression rewards. Currently, only 1% of the population gets the 4* t10 rewards and only 10% of the population gets new release 4* cover rewards. Moving these to progression will ensure a much higher percentage for both, diluting the in-game economy and leading to MPQ inflation. 
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    While I agree the current system of grinding and speed-racing for placement is a hot mess, I don't think it's as simple as putting the placement rewards in as progression rewards. Currently, only 1% of the population gets the 4* t10 rewards and only 10% of the population gets new release 4* cover rewards. Moving these to progression will ensure a much higher percentage for both, diluting the in-game economy and leading to MPQ inflation. 
    Don't want to be a downer but it's actually 0.1% for top 10 with a 4* non-release event. I understand the impact it could have on the economy but I've said before that the craziness you need to play for purposefully acquiring enough 4* to make a character useful in a reasonable amount of time with placement PVE is ridiculous. They treat 4*'s like there are 5 of them in existence, not many more than 3*'s.

    They opened up the economy when 3* dilution became an issue (and before CL) with top 100 for PVE placement. I don't think it is unreasonable at this point for top 25/50 for 4* placement and is beyond needed.

    They sold their soul to RNG as a business model a long time ago and it makes players like me who values purposeful progression on my roster to stop supporting them.
  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    While I agree the current system of grinding and speed-racing for placement is a hot mess, I don't think it's as simple as putting the placement rewards in as progression rewards. Currently, only 1% of the population gets the 4* t10 rewards and only 10% of the population gets new release 4* cover rewards. Moving these to progression will ensure a much higher percentage for both, diluting the in-game economy and leading to MPQ inflation. 
    Well, if progression rewards are expanded and the top reward requires 6 optimal clears to get it, then perhaps only 10% of players will get it.  Even if such a change causes "inflation", the game has been experiencing inflation ever since the beginning.  I played in 2014 before DDQ when 3* progression was very slow and 4* progression was a pipe dream. 

    Progression continues to move faster than before, but they also never stop releasing new characters either. 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    orbitalint said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    While I agree the current system of grinding and speed-racing for placement is a hot mess, I don't think it's as simple as putting the placement rewards in as progression rewards. Currently, only 1% of the population gets the 4* t10 rewards and only 10% of the population gets new release 4* cover rewards. Moving these to progression will ensure a much higher percentage for both, diluting the in-game economy and leading to MPQ inflation. 
    Don't want to be a downer but it's actually 0.1% for top 10 with a 4* non-release event. I understand the impact it could have on the economy but I've said before that the craziness you need to play for purposefully acquiring enough 4* to make a character useful in a reasonable amount of time with placement PVE is ridiculous. They treat 4*'s like there are 5 of them in existence, not many more than 3*'s.

    They opened up the economy when 3* dilution became an issue (and before CL) with top 100 for PVE placement. I don't think it is unreasonable at this point for top 25/50 for 4* placement and is beyond needed.

    They sold their soul to RNG as a business model a long time ago and it makes players like me who values purposeful progression on my roster to stop supporting them.

    Since when is 10/1000 .1%?

    My comment wasn't in regards to opening up placement rewards--it was more geared at those saying to get rid of placement and move the rewards to progression.
  • orbitalint
    orbitalint Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    Sm0keyJ0e said:

    Since when is 10/1000 .1%?

    My comment wasn't in regards to opening up placement rewards--it was more geared at those saying to get rid of placement and move the rewards to progression.
    My bad, working with a newborn here on no sleep and read your comment as 10% on initial read and moved the decimal one too many places. The rest of my point still stands if the devs are listening. Honestly, I don't think they understand their game economy enough, the levers for change available within one and the impact of tinkering with other resource flows beyond RNG and artificial scarcity.

    Also, I don't have much faith in the devs appropriately reassigning things to progressions either if the gauntlet is any indication. Those prizes are woefully outdated for the effort (though improved after character restrictions were removed) in a fully scoped 4* tier with a 5* tier on top of it.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    I would love more reward spots after the 15 cp award. PVE should be more about progression which is player vs environment not placement which is pvp.
  • Aidonis
    Aidonis Posts: 87 Match Maker
    Get rid of placement rewards already. Make it all progression based. If you demand that people have to play like it is a second job, then make the final total high enough that only a small percentage of folks can achieve it. The pvp aspects of this game are absurd.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    I am currently 9073 points above full progression and still playing on the last day of PVE. I will easily have 15000 or more wasted points. At least put one more progression reward and make it pretty good. A token of some sort.
  • Bloody_Marvel
    Bloody_Marvel Posts: 209 Tile Toppler
    MPQ is at its core a competitive game. That's why there are placement rewards. Winning a prize after fighting for it gives the player a sense of accomplishment, which is what makes the game addictive.

    Progression rewards are for people who play occasionally, and either don't have the time or the will to put the effort in to reach top placement.

    New character releases already expand the 4* placement rewards from the top 20 to the top 100. If you're into leisurely playing, there are events like Deadpool's Daily Quest, Gauntlet, Boss Events, and the occasional special event like Ant-Man / Totally Awesome Hulk / Awesome Mix Vol. 2.

    You may not make the top 100 in placement, but then there's the Alliance reward. If your alliance makes top 100 you still get a cover. You alliance didn't reach top 100 either? Well, guess what, there'll be a cover for you in the progression rewards on the subsequent event.

    There's plenty that could use improvement, but this is just arguing for arguments sake as far as I'm concerned.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    So you arguing that people shouldnt get more rewards for doing more and PVE should be about players fighting players? Does even make sense?
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wumpushunter said:
    So you arguing that people shouldnt get more rewards for doing more and PVE should be about players fighting players? Does even make sense?


    People are getting more if by playing each node more than 4 times. There's node rewards and XP for finishing the nodes, and they are also getting better placement rewards at the end of the event.

    Is it Worth the extra effort? That's up to the individual player to decide.

  • Bloody_Marvel
    Bloody_Marvel Posts: 209 Tile Toppler
    sh81 said:
    Placement rewards, however, really need reviewing.  4* covers are treated as holy grail, when the game is now a 5* game.

    Top 50 finishes deserve more than 3* covers.  Arguably top 100 finishes do.  I think this is where any in game rewards really need reviewing.
    This I agree with. SCL 8 should give a 4* to the top 50 for regular events, and SCL 9 should be released as soon as possible with at least a 5* reward for the top 2, and a 4* for the top 100.

    It's the complaint that you should be in the top 100 if you play for max progression that I take issue with. If you want to finish in the top 100, you should play to get into the top 100. If you can't be bothered to put green checkmarks on all nodes, you don't deserve to be in the top 100. If you want top 10 or 20, you will need to play as close to optimal as you can. It should require commitment to be in the top 1 or 2% of the players.
    Wumpushunter said:
    So you arguing that people shouldnt get more rewards for doing more and PVE should be about players fighting players? Does even make sense?
    PvE isn't about players fighting players. You can't be defeated by another player. Whether you make progression is entirely up to you. It is about competing however. If you're willing to put in the effort, and are willing to commit to a winning strategy, you'll have a better chance at a higher finish.

    PvP is a fighting match. PvE is a race.
  • WEBGAS
    WEBGAS Posts: 474 Mover and Shaker
    Bloody Marvel said:
    MPQ is at its core a competitive game. That's why there are placement rewards. Winning a prize after fighting for it gives the player a sense of accomplishment, which is what makes the game addictive.

    Progression rewards are for people who play occasionally, and either don't have the time or the will to put the effort in to reach top placement.

    New character releases already expand the 4* placement rewards from the top 20 to the top 100. If you're into leisurely playing, there are events like Deadpool's Daily Quest, Gauntlet, Boss Events, and the occasional special event like Ant-Man / Totally Awesome Hulk / Awesome Mix Vol. 2.

    You may not make the top 100 in placement, but then there's the Alliance reward. If your alliance makes top 100 you still get a cover. You alliance didn't reach top 100 either? Well, guess what, there'll be a cover for you in the progression rewards on the subsequent event.

    There's plenty that could use improvement, but this is just arguing for arguments sake as far as I'm concerned.
    Sorry but I don't agree. There are several holes in your statement because placement rewards is not based upon your ability, nor to your optimal play but indeed on your "lucky" to find a bracket that allows you to place well.
    This is the real reason of our complain : It's not fair that people with less scores have been awardered with better prizes.
    And this happens in the top 10 as well as in the top 100 ranges.

    With progression rewards, you will be awardered for your committment and will get better prizes if you manage to play a lot and don't occasionally.

    But we don't necessarely have to agree, LOL 
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards

    One of the first runs of Hulk had a global placement board - basically everyone who played that event were in direct competition with each other for the placement rewards.

    We haven't seen that system in over Three years though, so I assume the devs weren't happy with it.

  • Magic
    Magic Posts: 1,199 Chairperson of the Boards
    The sad reality is the developers never use the PvP vs PvE comparison we do. It's Versus events and Story events. And from the games perspective most of the Story events are PvP and some are PvE. This has been like this from the start and I don't see a change looming. 

    That being said - they should do something about the need to add 25-40% to progression max to get top100 placement in new release events. This should be an alarm for them (leads to burnout). The solution is probably lowering the number of available clears to 4-5 (one would hope it's 4 with max progression at 3). 
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    WEBGAS said:
    Sorry but I don't agree. There are several holes in your statement because placement rewards is not based upon your ability, nor to your optimal play but indeed on your "lucky" to find a bracket that allows you to place well.
    I'd be happy to even find a slice that allows me to place well.

    Slice 2 starts at 18:00, which means there's no way I can finish a sub,
    Slice 3 starts at 23:00 which means there's no way I can get the initial 4 clears done.
    the other slices start during the night or while I'm at work, so they're completely out of the question.

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