POLL: Should existing dupes be automatically converted to runes when the new system is introduced?

245

Comments

  • Dsagent
    Dsagent Posts: 73 Match Maker
    Yes (I've been converting all along, this is only fair)
    What is this new system everyone is talking abound?
  • hawkyh1
    hawkyh1 Posts: 780 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
     my calculations are
    deck slot = 45k runes = 200 crystals
    crystal = 225 runes
    dupe mythic = 1k runes(correct me if I'm wrong)
    or 4.44 crystals
    random guaranteed mythic = 350 crystals
    so = 78.8 dupe mythics

    by those calculations shteev can have 1 random mythic(approx.)
    for his stockpiled dupe mythics. let's assume all the old top 10
    coalitions hoarded a similar amount on average. so x200 extra
    mythics given out. my guess is that more than 200 mythics are
    opened  each time a special mythic pack is available?
    I don't see these stockpiles making much of a difference?

    HH
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    The people who converted them chose the guaranteed result now, rather than a potential nothing. Those who chose not to redeem dupes for runes were choosing to gamble that there would eventually be a better use for them. Those people shouldn't be punished.

  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)
    madwren said:
    The people who converted them chose the guaranteed result now, rather than a potential nothing. Those who chose not to redeem dupes for runes were choosing to gamble that there would eventually be a better use for them. Those people shouldn't be punished.
    Doesn't it depend on the wisdom of the gamble?

    If a gambler pumps a grand into a poker machine, even though the expected return is negative, it's hard to argue she shouldn't be "punished" when she blows the lot.  She made a bad gamble, and has to face the consequences.

    So how do we know if this dupe gamble was wise?  We check what d3go has told us.  Unfortunately they hedged somewhat, and left dupe conversion a voluntary thing, resulting in the current situation.  But it's indisputable that they explicitly said there were "no plans" for dupes to have any purpose other than conversion to runes, right from the beginning of when dupes were tracked.  Some players chose to gamble anyway, as is their right; it may pay off, or it may not.  But my opinion is that nobody deserves a safety net on a gamble that someone will one day do a thing they explicitly said they have no plans for.

    That's only reinforced when you consider that the "gamble" most people have made appears to involve very little actual sacrifice.  I haven't levelled all my planeswalkers fully, and I have plenty of dupes.  But I've levelled enough to be competitive in every event.  So why not hoard dupes, just in case?  If some aspect of the game imposed a high penalty (e.g. miss out on a mythic prize) because of a shortfall of runes, then I, like perhaps most people, would convert.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    Volrak said:
    madwren said:
    The people who converted them chose the guaranteed result now, rather than a potential nothing. Those who chose not to redeem dupes for runes were choosing to gamble that there would eventually be a better use for them. Those people shouldn't be punished.
    Doesn't it depend on the wisdom of the gamble?

    If a gambler pumps a grand into a poker machine, even though the expected return is negative, it's hard to argue she shouldn't be "punished" when she blows the lot.  She made a bad gamble, and has to face the consequences.

    Perhaps I chose the wrong word with "gamble", but despite your thoughtful response I'm not convinced.  To me, those who spend their dupes are facing the consequences of their action.  

    However, I question associating wisdom with taking the developers at their word. I fully agree that they indisputably said there were no plans for dupes.  I even converted for awhile early on. However, at some point, I thought, you know, they’ve made quite a few unanticipated changes, and down the road there are sure to be more. Maybe I should just hold onto them and see if either duplicates become more useful (and thus I have a store of them to utilize) or runes become more useful (and thus I retain them rather than be tempted to spend them).

    In short, plans often change. I banked on that, starting around the release of SOI. Others did not; they made a choice, and that's on them.

    I fully expect them to burn it all down anyway, so it's probably moot. All of our dupes will disappear, they'll introduce a fourth currency, and we'll accrue them at a rate that allows us to get a new card every two months. =p








  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)
    I stopped converting cards to runes when I draw my first mythic dupe after the kaladesh release.
    I don't think I draw a mythic dupe before that (not surprising if you don't have a lot).

    I voted for a forced conversion, because I think it is the fairest thing to do.
    Everybody got the same out of the old system then ("precious" runes) and we can go fresh to a new one and leave this really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad conversion system behind us....

    With the vote I stated also, that I have accumulated quite a lot of dupes already... This first impression is probably utterly false when I think more about that. Sorry for that!
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    Volrak said:
    But it's indisputable that they explicitly said there were "no plans" for dupes to have any purpose other than conversion to runes, right from the beginning of when dupes were tracked.
    Wait, whoah!!! I'm disputing this! THIS is what the dev team said right from the beginning of dupes being tracked:

    http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/37930/developer-q-a-1-12-16
    LakeStone said:
    What use is there for duplicate cards? Will I be able to trade or sell cards in the future? What should I do with duplicates now?

    Right now your duplicates are just sitting there. No worries, they’ll come to use in a bit. The more you’ll have accumulated the more you’ll benefit (by quantity), too, so it’s really not wasted. I can’t spoil anything on the system yet though!

    As you can see, no explicit statement of "no plans" for dupes to have any purpose other than conversion to runes.

    And, yes, of course, we can shift the argument along to the fact that there was no explicit statement of "some plans" for dupes to have any purpose other than conversion to runes, but that doesn't change the fact that your original statement was false.

    @madwren don't just take people's word for things :)

    [edit] Also, of course, a few months later, they said this:

    http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/509818/#Comment_509818
    Hibernum_JC said:
    I'll say this - we are actively listening to all your comments about duplicates and will seriously take them into consideration for the future. This doesn't mean we'll actually do a system like Hearthstone's dust system, but we are really taking these comments to heart.
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)
    shteev said:
    Volrak said:
    But it's indisputable that they explicitly said there were "no plans" for dupes to have any purpose other than conversion to runes, right from the beginning of when dupes were tracked.
    Wait, whoah!!! I'm disputing this! THIS is what the dev team said right from the beginning of dupes being tracked:

    http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/37930/developer-q-a-1-12-16
    LakeStone said:
    What use is there for duplicate cards? Will I be able to trade or sell cards in the future? What should I do with duplicates now?

    Right now your duplicates are just sitting there. No worries, they’ll come to use in a bit. The more you’ll have accumulated the more you’ll benefit (by quantity), too, so it’s really not wasted. I can’t spoil anything on the system yet though!

    That's an interesting quote indeed!  The quote I was referring to was:
    Hibernum_JC said:

    We do not currently have plans for additional things Duplicate cards can be used for, but this does not mean it will never happen. If you want to keep your duplicates for any reason, you can do so, and for this reason we haven't implemented an automatic conversion into Runes.
    These quotes are both from over a year ago, so it's not surprising some players remember one but not the other.  I concede that your quote comes "right at the beginning" of dupes being tracked, while mine comes a few months later.  While it may be reasonable to take the later statement as an abandonment of previous plans, it may also be reasonable to take these contradictory statements as evidence that anything could happen.

    In any case, these statements read together do much to explain the current diversity of views on the topic.
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    Yes (I have some dupes but happy for a fresh start for all)

    I voted Yes in general, for the sake of balance in the economy.  It's unhealthy to allow a small group of players to get such a huge advantage over the rest of the playerbase.  Assumption, of course, is that the new dupe conversion system will allow greater access to cards in the game.

    If the dupe conversion system provides a player with something that doesn't give a direct advantage in a match (eg. extra deck slots) then by all means allow converting to the new system.

    If the dupe conversion system will in some way allow acquiring top tier cards, then that would just widen the gap between the haves and have nots.  I don't expect the players who have preserved their dupes to just give them up, nor would I expect them to ever agree with any type of forced conversion.  However, it's not a good idea to hit them below the belt, either.  I like the suggestion from @EDHDad where mythics can be converted to Crystals/Jewels.

  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    Steeme said:

    I voted Yes in general, for the sake of balance in the economy.  It's unhealthy to allow a small group of players to get such a huge advantage over the rest of the playerbase. 

    Am I right in thinking that you bought Baral and Tezz 2? And that you argued against nerfing Baral?
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I have a few dupes and want to benefit)
    I will have to say that no, he didn't argue against nerfing  baral, in fact he was one of the biggest proponents of nerfing him actually. 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    Mainloop25 said:
    I will have to say that no, he didn't argue against nerfing  baral, in fact he was one of the biggest proponents of nerfing him actually. 
    Mmm.. no, actually, Steeme was very much in favor of Baral's raw power, then later altered his position slightly to Baral needing a nerf for the sole purpose of stopping the AI looping with him. He then went on to blame the players themselves for the problems that Baral's design created, and, well, I don't know what you think, but this post certainly seems to imply that he considered Old Baral+Tezzeret 2 to be of a reasonable power level.

    I've linked to the thread in question rather than pulling out quotes so you can read the entire thing for yourself and see what Steeme was saying in context. I've been through the thread myself. It makes enlightening reading.

  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)
    Er what's the point of this tangent you're on again? 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    Ohboy said:
    Er what's the point of this tangent you're on again? 
    Good point. Here it is:
    Steeme said:

    It's unhealthy to allow a small group of players to get such a huge advantage over the rest of the playerbase.

    With the greatest respect, Steeme, there is a certain hypocrisy in this remark: You have demonstrated that you want a huge advantage over other players by buying Tezz2 and Baral and then defending their power levels.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    I've been buying a few of the colored packs. They're on a limited timer. I just got a Mind's Dilation. That would be kinda nice to convert with whatever the exciting new conversion system is.

    Or, will I be forced to turn it into runes? Is it just tough tinykitty toenails for my poor Mind's Dilation? Is it my own fault for trying to get some of the blue mythics I want, and not sitting on my stacks of cash for even longer?
  • hawkyh1
    hawkyh1 Posts: 780 Critical Contributor
    If I have to force convert, can I save my aer rare
    in a pack to open after the duplicate system is in
    place?

    HH
  • TheDragonHermit
    TheDragonHermit Posts: 465 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    But at the same time I wouldn't scoff at the influx of runes, I have a bunch of Planeswalkers that need leveling and a forced conversion would probably satisfy that. I have also started hoarding reward packs to get a bunch more dupes, just in case.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)
    hawkyh1 said:
    If I have to force convert, can I save my aer rare
    in a pack to open after the duplicate system is in
    place?

    HH
    Presumably, unless they force us to open all our boosters first as well.

    Which, I guess, is not outside the bounds of possibility.
  • gruntface
    gruntface Posts: 161 Tile Toppler
    No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)
    Without any insight into the system, it's only speculation at this point but suspect packs would be unaffected other than the usual 3 month timer on inbox items.

    With regards to the method of conversion, that's certainly a potential headache. Reading through this thread, there is ambiguity with regards to developer statements, but the biggest argument for auto conversion is the potential disruption caused by some players having months of dupes. This could in turn result in a less generous ongoing dupe system so as to not tip the balance. 

    The flipside is that players have lost out being able to use runes upon conversion and so should benefit from something other than the current rate. 

    One middle ground option would be to set an auto conversion at a level between the two systems (or at least different to the ongoing new system). For instance if the new system gives 2 jewels for a mythic, then the auto could be 1 jewel (just an example, not trying to equate value). The player could then also be presented with an option to convert at the current rate as well so there is a floor no worse than what we have today.

    This means that if a player thinks the one off rate is more valuable that they can get more than just runes and thus a reward of sorts for holding dupes. This may not offset the opportunity cost they lost out on but as nothing concrete was ever promised think this would be a fair compromise. I am almost certain the conversion will not feel generous anyway.

    It also means that any new permanent system need not be unduly influenced by the massive hoards. This can be designed with the long term in mind and allay concerns of those worried that the hoarders will impact what they themselves would stand to gain from the new system.

    Ultimately, the purpose of the thread overall was to shed some light on the player perspective which is clearly split. Hopefully we will get some thoughtfulness from d3h and a realisation that they really would benefit from communicating both the what AND the why. 

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