POLL: Should existing dupes be automatically converted to runes when the new system is introduced?

Damien

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

I might have missed it if someone mentioned it already but what about the people who hoarded booster packs. If we're going to force people to convert dupes to runes in the name of fairness or a fresh start than that has to be addressed as well.

babar3355

No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)

Steeme said:

See this is the key issue here.  A small portion of the playerbase was privy to knowledge that there might actually be some reason to keep duplicates, while the rest of us converted them as that is literally all there was to do with them.

Contrary to what you believe, not everyone was aware there was going to be some other use for dupes.

You make it sound like we had a choice in converting.  That's where the difference of opinion lies.

I just don't think it hurts you that Majincob gets to convert his existing dupes..  I am very much opposed to participation trophies and such. Majincob ASKED if he should be converting... did you?

shteev

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

speakupaskanswer said:

I haven't found one good argument against auto-conversion and levelling everyone to a fair starting point. It still boils down to "I hoarded and now I want to be rewarded for it." But that has nothing to do with fairness or a healthy environment for players. Irgy's post said it best.

Indeed. And the other side of the argument is just 'I didn't hoard as much as you and I don't want you to be rewarded for it'.

The thing that's going to make this game fair is to ensure that players with TSN only play other players with TSN. Not to prevent anyone new from acquiring it.

Or, y'know, actually nerfing it.

Sorin81

No (I have a few dupes and want to benefit)

There are several players out there with an abundance of runes already. If they are forced into converting their dupes they will have even more. At some point in the future if the devs give us another use for runes these players will have an advantage over others. Will everyone calling for a forced conversion now be up in arms that these players have that abundance then?

Matthew

No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)

I would say that I haven't heard a good argument for auto-conversion. Those people who didn't convert their cards did so consciously and they should not be punished for it. The people I see on here who are speaking in favor of it all come across as entitled.

Forcing people who have been preparing for even the chance of this situation to completely trash all of that preparation is like making someone who has been saving money for retirement spend it all on something they don't want. It's not their fault that you chose immediate gratification with your duplicates, rather than wait for the possibility that they might be worth more down the road. It's also not their fault that you and others like you, didn't bother taking the initiative to look into the issue on the forums and other areas of the community.

Personally, I didn't start saving dupes until about 2 months ago, somewhere around the time they started hinting at the increasing likelihood of a conversion system. I am certainly late to the party, but I still don't think it would be fair to punish me for jumping on the bandwagon.

As for the argument that these players with massive stockpiles will imbalance the game, the coming shift to block format will limit that to a certain extent. And even without that shift, players who have literally never converted their duplicates comprise just the tiniest fraction of the actual player base. They have mostly fixed the problem those players posed already with the changes they made to matchmaking. Now it's rare that we encounter that group of 15 or so players. So your argument that these players will run around stomping all over others players with their big pile of mythics is not very convincing.

The only way I could see this being a problem is in how the reward sizes and bracket structures currently look. There need to be smaller brackets and bigger rewards. This will allow more people to reach those top tiers of placement, which will in turn spread the wealth out to newer, less seasoned, less mythic players.

speakupaskanswer

Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)

shteev said:

speakupaskanswer said:

I haven't found one good argument against auto-conversion and levelling everyone to a fair starting point. It still boils down to "I hoarded and now I want to be rewarded for it." But that has nothing to do with fairness or a healthy environment for players. Irgy's post said it best.

Indeed. And the other side of the argument is just 'I didn't hoard as much as you and I don't want you to be rewarded for it'.

The thing that's going to make this game fair is to ensure that players with TSN only play other players with TSN. Not to prevent anyone new from acquiring it.

Or, y'know, actually nerfing it.

No, that's not my argument at all. It's a "healthy environment for players" which would be only guaranteed if everyone starts at the same spot. I'm not begrudging anyone getting an advantage in this imbalanced game. But there's no need to add even more imbalance when there's a simple solution.

Sarahschmara

No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)

This reminds me of the parable about the ant and the grasshopper. Let the ants have their dupes since they were so industrious about saving them. 

Yawgmoth

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to have D3 announce how the conversions will be handled, before Amonkhet update arrives. This is mainly because many of us hoard a large amount of unopened packs (mailny from KLD) to open for the exclusives. But unopened packs are also a way to protect against a mass dupe conversion that could happen before the new system is implemented.

This kind of uncertainty can lead to many feel-bads and should be avoided.

Ohboy

Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)

So it's important for us to have the information in advance so we don't feel bad for missing out on a loophole to abuse the system?

Sarahschmara

No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)

Ohboy said:

So it's important for us to have the information in advance so we don't feel bad for missing out on a loophole to abuse the system?

But is it really abusing the system though? I don't see it that way at all.

EDHdad

A person hoarding packs or refusing to convert cards isn't "abusing the system".  They're making a rational decision to delay gratification in order to obtain a possible benefit in the future.  However, if there isn't going to be any additional benefit to those people for hoarding packs / refusing to convert dupes, it would be preferable to tell them sooner rather than later.

And yes.  This game does a horrible job managing the feel-bads which affect the decisions of players whether or not to play this game at all.  Getting a duplicate mythic with 400 unobtanium is a feel-bad.  Crushing your duplicate Masterpiece into 5,000 runes or your duplicate Mythic into 1,000 runes is a feel-bad.  Making people cast 6 of the same creature type in an enraged match while your opponent is barreling down on you with a fully tuned deck is a feel-bad.

Just because the game is generally fun, it doesn't mean that it can't be improved.  The #1 most important lesson Mark Rosewater ever learned is, "people don't have to play your game".  If it's not fun or intuitive or if the goals seem pointless, people will stop playing.  And if the game shuts down due to lack of interest, that will be the ultimate feel-bad.

Yvendros

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

Sarahschmara said:

This reminds me of the parable about the ant and the grasshopper. Let the ants have their dupes since they were so industrious about saving them. 

EXACTLY what I was going to say, lol

The biggest issue I see with auto-conversion is this:  All ya'll's who decided to convert for instant gratification got what you were going for.  You received your runes at that time in order to level your planeswalkers.  In the meantime, anyone who didn't convert went without more experienced planeswalkers, which potentially hindered them in events and such.  So if you're being salty that you didn't take the same gamble as others and save, check yourself.    (actually, I guess you DID take the same gamble.  it maybe just didn't pay off ).

*Disclaimer: I've only been not-converting since about EMN.  and I don't always place for rares.  So my dupe collection is quite small.

Laeuftbeidir

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

Since we don't know what is coming and when, this discussion is.. Pointless. Interesting, but pointless. Calm down, everyone.. At first, reading here was interesting, then funny, and now it gets annoying.

The devs will be doing their thing and that's okay.. They obviously don't need to tell us a thing if they're still in an early phase of that process, and for sure not before amk release next week.
Just decide for whatever you want. It's the same speculation as the not - converting is : take it or leave it.

madwren

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

Indeed. No matter what side you're on regarding this issue, chances are they already made their mind up and no one here is going to convince them to change.

Ohboy

Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

So it's important for us to have the information in advance so we don't feel bad for missing out on a loophole to abuse the system?

But is it really abusing the system though? I don't see it that way at all.

If the intention is to start everyone on an even level duplicate system wise and you found a way to keep duplicates past the conversion date thus circumventing the mechanism, then you're abusing the system to get you the unintended results. 

What I've found is that people here don't care about what the obvious ramifications of their actions are(and complain about the obvious fix later). In this case, devs will probably auto open packs for us going forward instead of crediting us a pack, and we'll lose the ability to horde packs past the exclusive card release into the pool date. 

Sarahschmara

No (I've been converting throughout but if people have been hoarding, they should benefit)

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

So it's important for us to have the information in advance so we don't feel bad for missing out on a loophole to abuse the system?

But is it really abusing the system though? I don't see it that way at all.

If the intention is to start everyone on an even level duplicate system wise and you found a way to keep duplicates past the conversion date thus circumventing the mechanism, then you're abusing the system to get you the unintended results. 

What I've found is that people here don't care about what the obvious ramifications of their actions are(and complain about the obvious fix later). In this case, devs will probably auto open packs for us going forward instead of crediting us a pack, and we'll lose the ability to horde packs past the exclusive card release into the pool date. 

But it's less "intentional abuse" and more "taking advantage of a happy coincidence." People aren't necessarily saving packs just for the dupe conversion (although that certainly is re-cementing the sentiment that they had the right idea). People have long saved packs to have a better chance to acquire exclusives.

This is not abuse, it is delayed gratification. 

Ohboy

Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

Sarahschmara said:

Ohboy said:

So it's important for us to have the information in advance so we don't feel bad for missing out on a loophole to abuse the system?

But is it really abusing the system though? I don't see it that way at all.

If the intention is to start everyone on an even level duplicate system wise and you found a way to keep duplicates past the conversion date thus circumventing the mechanism, then you're abusing the system to get you the unintended results. 

What I've found is that people here don't care about what the obvious ramifications of their actions are(and complain about the obvious fix later). In this case, devs will probably auto open packs for us going forward instead of crediting us a pack, and we'll lose the ability to horde packs past the exclusive card release into the pool date. 

But it's less "intentional abuse" and more "taking advantage of a happy coincidence." People aren't necessarily saving packs just for the dupe conversion (although that certainly is re-cementing the sentiment that they had the right idea). People have long saved packs to have a better chance to acquire exclusives.

This is not abuse, it is delayed gratification. 

But in this case(please let us know so we can keep packs past the conversion date to gain a dupe advantage), it's exactly the intentional abuse you just laid out. 

Yawgmoth

No (I've been saving dupes specifically for this new system and any auto-conversion would be a terrible idea)

Was holding mana crystals to buy a Big Box (RIP) instead of buying single packs as soon as you could also intentional abuse? 
Holding packs to open at a better time isn't any more abusive than that.

EDHdad

What you're calling "abuse" is really just normal consumer behavior.  Is it "abuse" if someone waits until socks are on sale before they purchase a dozen pairs?  Is it "abuse" if a restaurant patron eats half of their meal in the restaurant, and eats the other half at home?  Is it "abuse" if a paper Magic player wins some packs in a draft tournament, and uses those packs in a future draft, rather than ripping them open as soon as they get them?

If there was some way to obtain specific cards of a player's choice, it would increase interest in the game, and excitement over winning prizes.  This is what the game designers should want.  If you could obtain a specific Mythic next month by crushing duplicates, which one would you choose?  If you had the option of purchasing one card (and only one) next week for $20, which one would you choose?  Offers like that would create buzz and excitement for the game.  There would be discussions all over the internet about which card should I get or which card should I not get.  People might actually be interested in getting purple things or whatever currency is relevant.   And they wouldn't necessarily hate getting a duplicate, because they know they could change that dupe into a fraction of a specific card they want.

Gamers are going to game.  It's in the developer's interest to make a system that is fun and exciting for them to game, not to clamp down on the possibility that one of their customers might (horrors) actually obtain a specific item they want at a price they are willing to pay.

Ohboy

Yes (I have tons of dupes but still believe in a fresh start)

In this case, the hypothetical situation is a system set up to prevent existing dupes from being carried over to the new duplicate system. The question being asked here is literally "could we confirm this is how the system will work because I want to know how I can game it." 

I'm pointing out that it's hilarious and counter productive to ask them how to best game their own system. You're taking offense thinking I'm against hoarding at all. I hoard too. Obviously. 

Methinks that the lady doth protest too much.