What's up with the "Pay to play" node in Star Lord event.

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Comments

  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    They should not gate primary rewards behind something you have a low chance of getting, however in this case it was simply a bit more iso if you had got lucky with one of the LTs we have been able to win over the last few days, the main rewards in this case were the 10 iso and the LT.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    Except I'll place top 50 to earn the cover for the next essential just like every other event in the history of the game.

    It isn't outrageous that you didn't win 5* star Load, its outrageous that you never had the option to participate in the node.

    I'll meet you 1/2 on your argument.  How many free chances at the 10% store is appropriate?  Do you feel like 1 token eliminates paygate concerns? 3tokens?

    I don't mean this comment to demean anyone's math skills,  but what does that work out to?

    3 token pulls at 10 % means an avg player barely has a 20% chance to win access to the node. (I'll let someone else do the associated math on 3 independent pulls at 10%)

    In any case,  what do you feel is the acceptable percentage?

    For me personally,  no content should exist behind a character that has not be awarded via progression or placement.  ZERO, 0.  Its not free to play otherwise, and if we are going to a pay model then lets talk about the monthly value of participating.

    If you feel its okay to gate content.  then please tell me what % do you feel is acceptable?  Set a plain easily understood threshold, so that all players can determine for themselves their willingness to participate in the future.
    Do you have a node with a dozen No More Guns tokens on it that requires the 5* SL, or something? I see one for 5k iso, and it seems like a hilarious overreaction to suddenly make this the hill you're choosing to die on, over something you can literally get from 3 intercepts...
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    Phumade said:
    Except I'll place top 50 to earn the cover for the next essential just like every other event in the history of the game.

    It isn't outrageous that you didn't win 5* star Load, its outrageous that you never had the option to participate in the node.

    I'll meet you 1/2 on your argument.  How many free chances at the 10% store is appropriate?  Do you feel like 1 token eliminates paygate concerns? 3tokens?

    I don't mean this comment to demean anyone's math skills,  but what does that work out to?

    3 token pulls at 10 % means an avg player barely has a 20% chance to win access to the node. (I'll let someone else do the associated math on 3 independent pulls at 10%)

    In any case,  what do you feel is the acceptable percentage?

    For me personally,  no content should exist behind a character that has not be awarded via progression or placement.  ZERO, 0.  Its not free to play otherwise, and if we are going to a pay model then lets talk about the monthly value of participating.

    If you feel its okay to gate content.  then please tell me what % do you feel is acceptable?  Set a plain easily understood threshold, so that all players can determine for themselves their willingness to participate in the future.
    so you are saying that someone you just started yesterday should have been able to play that node because the game is free to play? 

    You  (and i ) were not able to play that node because we did not earn the character yet, I don't have a problem accepting that. It's not even pay to play it because I can't buy CP to get purple tokens. 

    This happens all the time and it's fine, just like when the first time they had Gauntlet, I could not finish it, did not have the roster, that's fine. You are making a huge deal out of nothing? 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mechahamster said:
    That's a lot of text to tell us that you didn't realize you could win a free 'Volume 2, Obviously' recruit token with a 10% chance to win a 5 star Star Lord from the I have a Plan event.

    Basically, a FREE option to WIN that character.
    Actually I won 4 tokens to the store.  1 from the 40 item vault,  1 from round 8, 1 from personal boss progression, and 1 from the 2nd to last node in the event.

    So I feel pretty qualified to tell you my opinion about PAYGATING content behind a RNG store.  In any case I stand by my original comments.

    I can't think of a single essential node in the history of the game that required a character that wasn't earnable through prior placement or progression.

    I think the key distinction between our views is that

    "Option to Win" is not the same thing as "Option to earn"

    So please tell us a process to "earn" 5* Star load?  

    I will compromise on my definition.  If you can tell the forum a way to earn 10 5* SL tokens through play then I'll retract my comments and say that I didn't put enough effort to play.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    Mechahamster said:
    That's a lot of text to tell us that you didn't realize you could win a free 'Volume 2, Obviously' recruit token with a 10% chance to win a 5 star Star Lord from the I have a Plan event.

    Basically, a FREE option to WIN that character.
    Actually I won 4 tokens to the store.  1 from the 40 item vault,  1 from round 8, 1 from personal boss progression, and 1 from the 2nd to last node in the event.

    So I feel pretty qualified to tell you my opinion about PAYGATING content behind a RNG store.  In any case I stand by my original comments.

    I can't think of a single essential node in the history of the game that required a character that wasn't earnable through prior placement or progression.

    I think the key distinction between our views is that

    "Option to Win" is not the same thing as "Option to earn"

    So please tell us a process to "earn" 5* Star load?  

    I will compromise on my definition.  If you can tell the forum a way to earn 10 5* SL tokens through play then I'll retract my comments and say that I didn't put enough effort to play.
    I'm just really enjoying that every instance you type it changes to "Star load".
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:

    I will compromise on my definition.  If you can tell the forum a way to earn 10 5* SL tokens through play then I'll retract my comments and say that I didn't put enough effort to play.
    Sure. Hoard your CP before the event and buy SL tokens until you pull one. Oh, you don't like to play that way? Me either. Well, I guess that's unfortunate, but the option was there and we didn't utilize it. Them's the breaks, and it ended up being an iso boon to those who did want to do so.
  • Mechahamster
    Mechahamster Posts: 237 Tile Toppler
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Mechahamster said:
    That's a lot of text to tell us that you didn't realize you could win a free 'Volume 2, Obviously' recruit token with a 10% chance to win a 5 star Star Lord from the I have a Plan event.

    Basically, a FREE option to WIN that character.
    This doesn't make sense.  FREE implies it was given to you.  WIN implies you bested others in competition.  And that is the root of this issue.  I WON everything the game had to offer me, but I neither won nor received a free SL cover.
    That's your interpretation. FREE could also imply 'not spending money' and WIN could also imply 'defeating all the nodes required'

    The dude was complaining that it was impossible to get the cover. a 10% chance is not impossible. In fact, I would say the odds are about one in 10.
  • astrp3
    astrp3 Posts: 367 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:
    I'll meet you 1/2 on your argument.  How many free chances at the 10% store is appropriate?  Do you feel like 1 token eliminates paygate concerns? 3tokens?

    For me personally,  no content should exist behind a character that has not be awarded via progression or placement.  ZERO, 0.  Its not free to play otherwise, and if we are going to a pay model then lets talk about the monthly value of participating.

    The number of tokens I think are required to alleviate "paygate" concerns is irrelevant since I don't think there ARE any paygate concerns here (RNGgate yes, but not paygate).

    And you're free to use your own personal definition of "free to play" but it's not the one used by Wikipedia or any other source I've seen, including most games advertised as such.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    New McG said:
    Phumade said:

    I will compromise on my definition.  If you can tell the forum a way to earn 10 5* SL tokens through play then I'll retract my comments and say that I didn't put enough effort to play.
    Sure. Hoard your CP before the event and buy SL tokens until you pull one. Oh, you don't like to play that way? Me either. Well, I guess that's unfortunate, but the option was there and we didn't utilize it. Them's the breaks, and it ended up being an iso boon to those who did want to do so.
    LOL thats a weak argument from my perspective.  But lets go down this line of thought  How much CP should have been horded?

    25, 100, 1000?  I'm not here to pick on your math skills, so lets just say between 5-15 pulls guarantee you a 5* Star load.  In that case where are the associated 5-15 tokens in the boss event?

    You can make the argument that giving a free token in the event eliminate paygating concerns.  You can even make the argument that prior token/cp opportunities minimizes those paygate concerns.

    But those arguments don't hold water in light of the percentages associated with them.

    The history of the game has been predicated on earning the character through play in a previous event.  Sometimes those expectations are high and sometimes those expectations are low.  But every essential character has been earn able.

    Your argument about tokens does not meet the definition of earnable for the simple reasons that ADDING UP ALL THE TOKEN % doesn't get you to 100% chance of earning 5* star load.  3 free tokens doesn't even add up to a 50% chance of getting 5* star load.  In consideration of your view.  they would need to give 10+ covers to make a common sense claim that they gave enough resources that an avg player would have earned 1 5* star load cover.

    The same analysis can be made about CP.  How much cp should we hoard to ensure we can play the node?  What ever number you feel that is,  please show me where those cp points can be earned in the prior event?

    Anyone can make the argument that all prior resources should have been hoard for this event.  But that flies in the face of the history of the game and how PVE has been run.


  • Mechahamster
    Mechahamster Posts: 237 Tile Toppler
    Sucks that you're missing out on a high placement in this event because you didn't get a chance to get Star Lord in a previous event.

    Wait, there is no placement.

    Well, I guess that kills that comparison then.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mechahamster said:
    The dude was complaining that it was impossible to get the cover. a 10% chance is not impossible. In fact, I would say the odds are about one in 10.
    It can be fairly said that 1 in 10 is not impossible merely improbable.  And I'l even make the concession that eventually enough tokens leads to a high certainty of  roster 5* Star load.

    So with that said,  How many tokens do you feel is necessary to ensure a reasonable chance of success? 3, 5, 10, 15?

    whatever number you pick,  please show me how those pulls could be paid for by either tokens or CP that could have been earned in the prior boss event?

    I'll state that in the history of the game, ever essential node, has required a character that was either "earnable" through progression or placement.

    I'll accept the logic of saying "I won 20 tokens in strange sights" and was pretty locked in on pulling the essential for that event.  But you can't make that analogy here because the 4 tokens that were available via placement, progression, purchase, participation equate to a less than 50% chance of rostering 5* Star load.


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mechahamster said:
    Sucks that you're missing out on a high placement in this event because you didn't get a chance to get Star Lord in a previous event.

    Wait, there is no placement.

    Well, I guess that kills that comparison then.
    only if success in the pve depended on my success in this event.  In which case its even more blatant paygating.
  • NewMcG
    NewMcG Posts: 368 Mover and Shaker
    Phumade said:

    I'll state that in the history of the game, ever essential node, has required a character that was either "earnable" through progression or placement.


    What about the first PVE event ever? Oh snap, mind blown!!!
  • Mechahamster
    Mechahamster Posts: 237 Tile Toppler
    It's 5 K iso. If you want to break the bank because you feel you NEED that ISO, I think the price would be 1 Treasure Box and 1.5 Dead Drops.

    You can compare this all you want to PVE events with placements, but that falls flat because this event is not a part of the chain. If you want a fair comparison, compare it to events like the Amadeus Cho or the Agent Coulson one.
  • GritsNGravy
    GritsNGravy Posts: 114 Tile Toppler
    Good lord, there is a node that gives you a free ST token with a chance to get it, maybe you get lucky, maybe you didn't.  One node in a special new event isn't that big of a deal.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    New McG said:
    Phumade said:

    I'll state that in the history of the game, ever essential node, has required a character that was either "earnable" through progression or placement.


    What about the first PVE event ever? Oh snap, mind blown!!!
    LOL,  thats a good quip and I'll let you end the discussion on that point.

    But at the end of the day, I still haven't seen any arguments that suggests that the CP or tokens awarded in the prior event are anywhere sufficient to allow an avg player the opportunity to play that node.

    By that I mean an avg roster should have a 75% confidence level of being able to earn the next essential character either through placement, progression or resources awarded in that event.

    otherwise its a pay to play event
  • Mechahamster
    Mechahamster Posts: 237 Tile Toppler
    Nobody is saying that the odds to play that node were great. We're just saying that it doesn't matter as much as you're making out for something that essentially boils down to a lucky freebie on top of a very easily obtained 4* token.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mechahamster said:
    It's 5 K iso. If you want to break the bank because you feel you NEED that ISO, I think the price would be 1 Treasure Box and 1.5 Dead Drops.

    You can compare this all you want to PVE events with placements, but that falls flat because this event is not a part of the chain. If you want a fair comparison, compare it to events like the Amadeus Cho or the Agent Coulson one.
    Fair enough.  I don't remember Coulson, Cho, or antman requiring a character that wasn't given out to complete the event.

    Everyone focuses on the 5k as a piddly reward that makes this discussion insignificant.

    I think its important for precisely that reason.  If you set the precedent that people don't care or didn't notice this Paygate issue, then you set the precedent for making the 1st node require 5* star load, vs 3* version.

    Think about that point.  The only difference between making the 1st node paygate is typing in the number "5" in the event script.


  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    GritsNGravy said:
    Good lord, there is a node that gives you a free ST token with a chance to get it, maybe you get lucky, maybe you didn't.  One node in a special new event isn't that big of a deal.
    That was great that the node gave out a ST token.  No complaints or issues.  I just didn't expect that the next node would require one of those tokens to hit on a 10% draw.

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