Vaulting.

sinnerjfl

Fightmastermpq said:

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

Oh sure, let me just champ the 12 latest 4*'s in tokens...  oh woopsie, I do not have 4.2 million ISO on hand at the moment and probably won't ever. How's that for an ISO shortage problem that the current tokens supposedly solve?

What I do have is even more ISO invested in older champed 4*'s that are not getting any rewards from champ levels at the moment.

Fightmastermpq

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

Oh sure, let me just champ the 12 latest 4*'s in tokens...  oh woopsie, I do not have 4.2 million ISO on hand at the moment and probably won't ever. How's that for an ISO shortage problem that the current tokens supposedly solve?

What I do have is even more ISO invested in older champed 4*'s that are not getting any rewards from champ levels at the moment.

IThe ISO required to champ 43 characters is over 15 million.  15 million is greater than 4.2 million.  

Even if you had every single older 4* champed your total 4* ISO needs are EXACTLY the same.....4.2 million.  So vaulting by definition can only keep your ISO needs constant or reduce them.

I agree that not getting the higher champ rewards sucks, especially if you do have all the older 4*s champed.  But for many the increased flow of champed rewards for the newer characters will actually make up the difference.

*Removed insults - Ducky

sinnerjfl

Fightmastermpq said:

The ISO required to champ 43 characters is over 15 million.  15 million is greater than 4.2 million.  

Even if you had every single older 4* champed your total 4* ISO needs are EXACTLY the same.....4.2 million.  So vaulting by definition can only keep your ISO needs constant or reduce them.

I agree that not getting the higher champ rewards sucks, especially if you do have all the older 4*s champed.  But for many the increased flow of champed rewards for the newer characters will actually make up the difference.

Gathering 4.2 million ISO takes a frigging long time and for the foreseeable future, this system puts you an at ISO deficit.

Gathering ISO for a 4* (350k) takes roughly 3 weeks. 3 weeks X 12 = 36 weeks (roughly 8 months)

By the time you'll champ them, they'll be due out of tokens or already out.

How hard is it to understand?

Right now, my ISO is stuck in older champed 4*'s. I can't magically champ the 12 latest. 

*Removed Insults - Ducky

Fightmastermpq

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

I can't tell if your trolling, incredibly bad at math, or just being obtuse. The ISO required to champ 43 characters is over 15 million.  15 million is greater than 4.2 million.  

Even if you had every single older 4* champed your total 4* ISO needs are EXACTLY the same.....4.2 million.  So vaulting by definition can only keep your ISO needs constant or reduce them.

I agree that not getting the higher champ rewards sucks, especially if you do have all the older 4*s champed.  But for many the increased flow of champed rewards for the newer characters will actually make up the difference.

Gathering 4.2 million ISO takes a frigging long time and for the foreseeable future, this system puts you an at ISO deficit.

Gathering ISO for a 4* (350k) takes roughly 3 weeks. 3 weeks X 12 = 36 weeks (roughly 8 months)

By the time you'll champ them, they'll be due out of tokens or already out.

How hard is it to understand?

Right now, my ISO is stuck in older champed 4*'s. I can't magically champ the 12 latest. 

Bless your heart.

3 weeks from now when you have 350k ISO instead of champing the 4* that is about to leave the pool you champ the newest one.  Boom - you have your first newest champ.  3 weeks later another 4* has left the pool and another has entered and you champ another of the newest.....now you have 2 champs in the pool.  Three more weeks go by and a 5* is released instead of a 4* - BONUS CHAMP FOR YOU!1!!1!  You continue in this fashion until you have all 12 champed (36 weeks in pool / 3 weeks to collect 350k ISO = 12 4* champs every 36 weeks).

GoldenArm

Fightmastermpq said:

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

I guess its better to constantly pull characters I don't care in the slightest about (Riri, Mordo, Gwenpool etc.) and that I'll just keep trashing covers... yeah that is super fun.

At least with dilution I had my chance at a 5* and a champion reward. Now its often a 1000 iso for 20 CP... woo, exciting.

It devalues CP totally up to a point and speaking of ISO costs, champing the latest 12 before they leave the tokens is pretty much worse in every way than pulling a 14th token, saving up and champing that specific character.

And the champion system is practically dead for 4*'s right now... you know, that feature they made a huge deal about a year ago.

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

You seem to be implying that "all characters are created equal", and the only difference between new and old is age.

I'll try to keep that in mind when my championed Mordo, Riri and Gwenpool get WRECKED in PvP by teams containing Iceman, Red Hulk, Cyclops, Phoenix, etc.
Characters that I now have no access to.

Partyof5

If you put the older characters in their own token pool at least that would give players a choice between chasing the latest 12 and going for the older ones.  Why can't they have tokens for each "family" of characters and let us have at least some choice in their Arcade horror trap of RNG?  

I am a casual player who will never have all the 4* fully covered.  I would have more interest in the game if I felt like I could focus on the characters I like rather than be funneled into chasing characters I never want to play with. 

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

I guess its better to constantly pull characters I don't care in the slightest about (Riri, Mordo, Gwenpool etc.) and that I'll just keep trashing covers... yeah that is super fun.

At least with dilution I had my chance at a 5* and a champion reward. Now its often a 1000 iso for 20 CP... woo, exciting.

It devalues CP totally up to a point and speaking of ISO costs, champing the latest 12 before they leave the tokens is pretty much worse in every way than pulling a 14th token, saving up and champing that specific character.

And the champion system is practically dead for 4*'s right now... you know, that feature they made a huge deal about a year ago.

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

You seem to be implying that "all characters are created equal", and the only difference between new and old is age.

I'll try to keep that in mind when my championed Mordo, Riri and Gwenpool get WRECKED in PvP by teams containing Iceman, Red Hulk, Cyclops, Phoenix, etc.
Characters that I now have no access to.

That's fine, but also keep it in mind when you are crushing any vaulted 4* trio with your Carol/Medusa/Coulson as well.  Or how about this past weeks favorite team of Cloak & Dagger with Spider-Woman and Bl4de?

It's also pretty obvious that you've never played with a boosted champed Gwenpool as she kicks ****.

Sorry, but power creep is real and the devs are doing a good job ensuring that newer characters are mostly useful.  Sure, there are some stinkers, but there are also some meta-defining characters that have been coming out as well.

GoldenArm

Fightmastermpq said:

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

I guess its better to constantly pull characters I don't care in the slightest about (Riri, Mordo, Gwenpool etc.) and that I'll just keep trashing covers... yeah that is super fun.

At least with dilution I had my chance at a 5* and a champion reward. Now its often a 1000 iso for 20 CP... woo, exciting.

It devalues CP totally up to a point and speaking of ISO costs, champing the latest 12 before they leave the tokens is pretty much worse in every way than pulling a 14th token, saving up and champing that specific character.

And the champion system is practically dead for 4*'s right now... you know, that feature they made a huge deal about a year ago.

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

You seem to be implying that "all characters are created equal", and the only difference between new and old is age.

I'll try to keep that in mind when my championed Mordo, Riri and Gwenpool get WRECKED in PvP by teams containing Iceman, Red Hulk, Cyclops, Phoenix, etc.
Characters that I now have no access to.

That's fine, but also keep it in mind when you are crushing any vaulted 4* trio with your Carol/Medusa/Coulson as well.  Or how about this past weeks favorite team of Cloak & Dagger with Spider-Woman and Bl4de?

It's also pretty obvious that you've never played with a boosted champed Gwenpool as she kicks tinykitty.

Sorry, but power creep is real and the devs are doing a good job ensuring that newer characters are mostly useful.  Sure, there are some stinkers, but there are also some meta-defining characters that have been coming out as well.

So why do basically all PVP teams contain one of Iceman, Red Hulk, Thoress, Phoenix, Cyclops etc...?
And why do almost all character tier lists show Iceman as the best 4* in the game?

It's also pretty obvious you already have the old characters covered, so you aren't affected by them disappearing. How would you like it of all of a sudden you had no access to 70% of the characters you had only halfway covered?

I'm not saying all old 4*s are great and all new 4*s are bad, but at least give me the chance of getting the old
characters and deciding for myself!!
Right now the old characters basically don't exist in the game!

And don't talk about bonus covers. Since they were introduced I've managed to pull ZERO of my 4* favourites.

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:

sinnerjfl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

I guess its better to constantly pull characters I don't care in the slightest about (Riri, Mordo, Gwenpool etc.) and that I'll just keep trashing covers... yeah that is super fun.

At least with dilution I had my chance at a 5* and a champion reward. Now its often a 1000 iso for 20 CP... woo, exciting.

It devalues CP totally up to a point and speaking of ISO costs, champing the latest 12 before they leave the tokens is pretty much worse in every way than pulling a 14th token, saving up and champing that specific character.

And the champion system is practically dead for 4*'s right now... you know, that feature they made a huge deal about a year ago.

And if you put all the old characters into classic tokens you have the same problem.  Now you are constantly pulling covers for 43 older characters that you don't care about instead of the 12 latest characters that you don't care about.  Now you champ 12 characters and every pull is a chance at a 5* and a champion reward, if you move all the old characters to classics you need to champ 43 characters to get that champion reward instead of 1k ISO for 20 CP.  You are STILL pulling a 14th cover, saving up and champing that character either way.  And the champion system is alive and well.  Sure we aren't getting the upper end 320+ champ rewards, but getting a larger percentage of 270-320 rewards helps to make up the difference.

You seem to be implying that "all characters are created equal", and the only difference between new and old is age.

I'll try to keep that in mind when my championed Mordo, Riri and Gwenpool get WRECKED in PvP by teams containing Iceman, Red Hulk, Cyclops, Phoenix, etc.
Characters that I now have no access to.

That's fine, but also keep it in mind when you are crushing any vaulted 4* trio with your Carol/Medusa/Coulson as well.  Or how about this past weeks favorite team of Cloak & Dagger with Spider-Woman and Bl4de?

It's also pretty obvious that you've never played with a boosted champed Gwenpool as she kicks tinykitty.

Sorry, but power creep is real and the devs are doing a good job ensuring that newer characters are mostly useful.  Sure, there are some stinkers, but there are also some meta-defining characters that have been coming out as well.

So why do basically all PVP teams contain one of Iceman, Red Hulk, Thoress, Phoenix, Cyclops etc...?
And why do almost all character tier lists show Iceman as the best 4* in the game?

It's also pretty obvious you already have the old characters covered, so you aren't affected by them disappearing. How would you like it of all of a sudden you had no access to 70% of the characters you had only halfway covered?

I'm not saying all old 4*s are great and all new 4*s are bad, but at least give me the chance of getting the old
characters and deciding for myself!!
Right now the old characters basically don't exist in the game!

And don't talk about bonus covers. Since they were introduced I've managed to pull ZERO of my 4* favourites.

You see those characters a lot for the same reasons that you saw OML a lot - not because he was the best 5* in the game (he is far from it) but because he was one of the first and so many more people have covers for him.  Same goes for rankings - the older characters that people have fallen in love with get the highest rankings because people have had time to assess their value.  Not nearly as many have Medusa or Carol champed, but those that do recognize how good they are.

You don't have NO access to the older characters, they still show up as rewards, and you can still use BH to acquire those that are most desirable.  If they were only halfway covered it was going to be a LONG time before you had them maxed anyway at being just 1 of 43 potential pulls.  The tradeoff though is that you get access to the newer characters MUCH sooner than before and so you get to compete at the 4* level much sooner as well.

astrp3

Fightmastermpq said:

Same goes for rankings - the older characters that people have fallen in love with get the highest rankings because people have had time to assess their value.  Not nearly as many have Medusa or Carol champed, but those that do recognize how good they are.

Most of the rankings I've seen didn't include the new characters at all because they were either done before the characters were available of because the authors/participants didn't have them fully covered or didn't have enough experience with them to evaluate them properly. And as Fightmaster said, from what I've read, the consensus among those who do seems to be that Carol and Medusa are A-list characters, and a number of other new characters (Coulson, Wasp, Blade) are considered very strong as well (at least in certain combos/situations). And Peggy, who just left the vaults, is considered by many the strongest 4* in the game (some even call her a 4.5*).

GoldenArm

astrp3 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Same goes for rankings - the older characters that people have fallen in love with get the highest rankings because people have had time to assess their value.  Not nearly as many have Medusa or Carol champed, but those that do recognize how good they are.

Most of the rankings I've seen didn't include the new characters at all because they were either done before the characters were available of because the authors/participants didn't have them fully covered or didn't have enough experience with them to evaluate them properly. And as Fightmaster said, from what I've read, the consensus among those who do seems to be that Carol and Medusa are A-list characters, and a number of other new characters (Coulson, Wasp, Blade) are considered very strong as well (at least in certain combos/situations). And Peggy, who just left the vaults, is considered by many the strongest 4* in the game (some even call her a 4.5*).

All of the tier lists Ive seen DO include latest chars.

Again, all Im asking for is the possibility of finding  out what chars are good for myself. Why would it bother you if the old 4*s were put into the classic legends vault (or a new vault of only old 4*s)? You could just ignore that vault and I would have the choice. 

I have put considerable resources, including real-world cash, into characters that are now barely available.

Again, BH has so far given me ZERO 4*s. That is not a viable solution.

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

astrp3 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Same goes for rankings - the older characters that people have fallen in love with get the highest rankings because people have had time to assess their value.  Not nearly as many have Medusa or Carol champed, but those that do recognize how good they are.

Most of the rankings I've seen didn't include the new characters at all because they were either done before the characters were available of because the authors/participants didn't have them fully covered or didn't have enough experience with them to evaluate them properly. And as Fightmaster said, from what I've read, the consensus among those who do seems to be that Carol and Medusa are A-list characters, and a number of other new characters (Coulson, Wasp, Blade) are considered very strong as well (at least in certain combos/situations). And Peggy, who just left the vaults, is considered by many the strongest 4* in the game (some even call her a 4.5*).

All of the tier lists Ive seen DO include latest chars.

Again, all Im asking for is the possibility of finding  out what chars are good for myself. Why would it bother you if the old 4*s were put into the classic legends vault (or a new vault of only old 4*s)? You could just ignore that vault and I would have the choice. 

I have put considerable resources, including real-world cash, into characters that are now barely available.

Again, BH has so far given me ZERO 4*s. That is not a viable solution.

If BH is not a viable solution then neither is putting all the characters into classics since your odds of pulling a BH are better than the 1/43 shot you would have at pulling a given 4* anyway.

I'm currently spending my CP on classics to add champ levels to my 5* characters, and maybe get covers for some other 5*s that I don't have well covered.  If all the vaulted 4*s go into the classic tokens now I'm in a situation where I'm pulling covers for old 4*s that are irrelevant and undeserving of ISO.  It's the dilution problem all over again.

OneLastGambit

Fightmastermpq said:

Daredevil217 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

This is absolutely wrong.  Classic Legends 5* tier is already diluted, first of all.  Second of all, you would still have every token except the Classic to pull from if you want concentrated pulls.  Changing a single token balances the game and gives options for people who prefer to pull from a diluted pool (both the 4's and 5's are diluted); and those who view dilution as a problem impacting their progress have... literally any other token to pull from (the most obvious of which is Latest Legends).

Saying changing ONE token would restore ALL dilution problems is hyperbole at its finest.

It's not hyperbole, it's a fact.  Vaulting solved the dilution problem by removing all but 12 characters from all tokens.  If you put those characters back into classic tokens the dilution problem returns.

The problem is that it ties dilution in the 4* tier to progression in the 5* tier.  If you want champ levels on your 5* classics you have to accept a massive 4* dilution problem to get them.  If you want latest 5*s you don't get any older 4*s.  It's not a good solution.

I don't see how having two sets of tokens (Classic and Latest) will exacerbate either diltution or iso problems? Don't like dilution? Just spend on latest. Don't mind dilution and just want champ rewards? Pick latest.

It's really the best and most simple solution meeting in the middle of the 2 problems

Fightmastermpq

OneLastGambit said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Daredevil217 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

This is absolutely wrong.  Classic Legends 5* tier is already diluted, first of all.  Second of all, you would still have every token except the Classic to pull from if you want concentrated pulls.  Changing a single token balances the game and gives options for people who prefer to pull from a diluted pool (both the 4's and 5's are diluted); and those who view dilution as a problem impacting their progress have... literally any other token to pull from (the most obvious of which is Latest Legends).

Saying changing ONE token would restore ALL dilution problems is hyperbole at its finest.

It's not hyperbole, it's a fact.  Vaulting solved the dilution problem by removing all but 12 characters from all tokens.  If you put those characters back into classic tokens the dilution problem returns.

The problem is that it ties dilution in the 4* tier to progression in the 5* tier.  If you want champ levels on your 5* classics you have to accept a massive 4* dilution problem to get them.  If you want latest 5*s you don't get any older 4*s.  It's not a good solution.

I don't see how having two sets of tokens (Classic and Latest) will exacerbate either diltution or iso problems? Don't like dilution? Just spend on latest. Don't mind dilution and just want champ rewards? Pick latest.

It's really the best and most simple solution meeting in the middle of the 2 problems

What's not to see?  You are tying progression in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It's a terrible solution.  I can't just spend 5 more CP to draw CLASSIC 5*s with no dilution.  My best 5s are in classics now.  I use Bolt more than any other character and I want champ levels for him, so I pull classics, and I'd much prefer to not have to deal with 4* dilution to get champ levels on my most used 5*s.

GoldenArm

Fightmastermpq said:

OneLastGambit said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Daredevil217 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

This is absolutely wrong.  Classic Legends 5* tier is already diluted, first of all.  Second of all, you would still have every token except the Classic to pull from if you want concentrated pulls.  Changing a single token balances the game and gives options for people who prefer to pull from a diluted pool (both the 4's and 5's are diluted); and those who view dilution as a problem impacting their progress have... literally any other token to pull from (the most obvious of which is Latest Legends).

Saying changing ONE token would restore ALL dilution problems is hyperbole at its finest.

It's not hyperbole, it's a fact.  Vaulting solved the dilution problem by removing all but 12 characters from all tokens.  If you put those characters back into classic tokens the dilution problem returns.

The problem is that it ties dilution in the 4* tier to progression in the 5* tier.  If you want champ levels on your 5* classics you have to accept a massive 4* dilution problem to get them.  If you want latest 5*s you don't get any older 4*s.  It's not a good solution.

I don't see how having two sets of tokens (Classic and Latest) will exacerbate either diltution or iso problems? Don't like dilution? Just spend on latest. Don't mind dilution and just want champ rewards? Pick latest.

It's really the best and most simple solution meeting in the middle of the 2 problems

What's not to see?  You are tying progression in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It's a terrible solution.  I can't just spend 5 more CP to draw CLASSIC 5*s with no dilution.  My best 5s are in classics now.  I use Bolt more than any other character and I want champ levels for him, so I pull classics, and I'd much prefer to not have to deal with 4* dilution to get champ levels on my most used 5*s.

And now we get to the heart of it.
It affects you personally, and the few whales that are in the same position.
I'd wager there are far more people adversely affected by vaulting.

I'm in the highest clearance brackets available, so that tells me there aren't too many above my level, but MANY more below.

GoldenArm

...And just to reiterate - why not add a vault that contains ONLY the chars that are no longer available in the Classic or Latest Legends?
That way you can avoid it completely if you want, but the bottom line is that all players have a choice.

Also, re-read your own post. You hit our problem on the head - "My best 5s are in classics now."

Following your logic, my reply should be "why do you care about older characters? Ignore them and focus on the new ones!"

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:

OneLastGambit said:

Fightmastermpq said:

Daredevil217 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

They aren't implementing it because it's not a good solution.  It restores all the dilution problems that vaulting got rid of, and ISO needs would skyrocket again.  No thanks.

This is absolutely wrong.  Classic Legends 5* tier is already diluted, first of all.  Second of all, you would still have every token except the Classic to pull from if you want concentrated pulls.  Changing a single token balances the game and gives options for people who prefer to pull from a diluted pool (both the 4's and 5's are diluted); and those who view dilution as a problem impacting their progress have... literally any other token to pull from (the most obvious of which is Latest Legends).

Saying changing ONE token would restore ALL dilution problems is hyperbole at its finest.

It's not hyperbole, it's a fact.  Vaulting solved the dilution problem by removing all but 12 characters from all tokens.  If you put those characters back into classic tokens the dilution problem returns.

The problem is that it ties dilution in the 4* tier to progression in the 5* tier.  If you want champ levels on your 5* classics you have to accept a massive 4* dilution problem to get them.  If you want latest 5*s you don't get any older 4*s.  It's not a good solution.

I don't see how having two sets of tokens (Classic and Latest) will exacerbate either diltution or iso problems? Don't like dilution? Just spend on latest. Don't mind dilution and just want champ rewards? Pick latest.

It's really the best and most simple solution meeting in the middle of the 2 problems

What's not to see?  You are tying progression in the 5* tier to dilution in the 4* tier.  It's a terrible solution.  I can't just spend 5 more CP to draw CLASSIC 5*s with no dilution.  My best 5s are in classics now.  I use Bolt more than any other character and I want champ levels for him, so I pull classics, and I'd much prefer to not have to deal with 4* dilution to get champ levels on my most used 5*s.

And now we get to the heart of it.
It affects you personally, and the few whales that are in the same position.
I'd wager there are far more people adversely affected by vaulting.

I'm in the highest clearance brackets available, so that tells me there aren't too many above my level, but MANY more below.

Sorry but no, dilution affects everyone.  Adding all the characters back in to the classic pool would negatively affect just about anyone that pulls classic tokens.  I know you think that everyone is like you because most of the forum shares your outrage, but the majority of the forum is in the minority of the playerbase.  Vaulting is a huge help to players trying to jump into 4* play and that is actually the majority of the playerbase.  Hell even if you look through a lot of the complaints much of the outrage is misguided because people just haven't done the math to realize how vaulting could actually help them.

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

...And just to reiterate - why not add a vault that contains ONLY the chars that are no longer available in the Classic or Latest Legends?
That way you can avoid it completely if you want, but the bottom line is that all players have a choice.

Also, re-read your own post. You hit our problem on the head - "My best 5s are in classics now."

Following your logic, my reply should be "why do you care about older characters? Ignore them and focus on the new ones!"

I don't disagree that players should have a choice, but the solution given doesn't offer a choice because it ties the 4* choice to a 5* choice.  The solution I gave would be undeniably better.....http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/668306#Comment_668306

You can't draw a comparison to the 4* tier and the 5* tier because the pace of progression is so much slower, and the rate or rotation is so much faster.  5*s are only in the latest pool for a couple months while 4*s stay in tokens for close to 8 months I think it is.  There is no other way to obtain 5*s besides LTs.  Also 5*s are never featured or boosted (at least not in a meaningful way) so my best 5*s are always my best 5*s while my best 4*s change with the boosted list every week.

GoldenArm

Fightmastermpq said:Sorry but no, dilution affects everyone.  Adding all the characters back in to the classic pool would negatively affect just about anyone that pulls classic tokens.  I know you think that everyone is like you because most of the forum shares your outrage, but the majority of the forum is in the minority of the playerbase.  Vaulting is a huge help to players trying to jump into 4* play and that is actually the majority of the playerbase.  tinykitty even if you look through a lot of the complaints much of the outrage is misguided because people just haven't done the math to realize how vaulting could actually help them.

But what is the problem, even for you, with pulling characters you already have fully covered?
If you are lucky enough to have champed Iceman, Rulk etc.. then getting more covers gives you more levels and rewards.

I guess the difference is that you want it all to suit where you are in the game, I want it all to suit everybody no matter what level they are at.
We both want to be able to max out the characters we currently care most about, but the way is stands only one of us is able to do that.

The whole point of games like this is to appeal to the "gotta catch 'em all" hoarder inside all of us.
Why the eff would I have bothered sinking resources into leveling characters, roster slots etc if I knew some of the the characters would become all of a sudden basically unavailable?

No warning, no options, just (for all intents & purposes) gone.

Fightmastermpq

GoldenArm said:

Fightmastermpq said:Sorry but no, dilution affects everyone.  Adding all the characters back in to the classic pool would negatively affect just about anyone that pulls classic tokens.  I know you think that everyone is like you because most of the forum shares your outrage, but the majority of the forum is in the minority of the playerbase.  Vaulting is a huge help to players trying to jump into 4* play and that is actually the majority of the playerbase.  tinykitty even if you look through a lot of the complaints much of the outrage is misguided because people just haven't done the math to realize how vaulting could actually help them.

But what is the problem, even for you, with pulling characters you already have fully covered?
If you are lucky enough to have champed Iceman, Rulk etc.. then getting more covers gives you more levels and rewards.

I guess the difference is that you want it all to suit where you are in the game, I want it all to suit everybody no matter what level they are at.
We both want to be able to max out the characters we currently care most about, but the way is stands only one of us is able to do that.

The whole point of games like this is to appeal to the "gotta catch 'em all" hoarder inside all of us.
Why the eff would I have bothered sinking resources into leveling characters, roster slots etc if I knew some of the the characters would become all of a sudden basically unavailable?

No warning, no options, just (for all intents & purposes) gone.

Please.  Don't try to act like you came in here complaining about vaulting for any reason other than it being bad for you.  It's so weak to act like I'm only being supportive because it benefits me......it doesn't.  I like the fact that it's drastically cut my ISO needs, I like that it's overall better for the game by allowing faster transitions for newer characters, and changing stale metas, but ultimately vaulting is bad for me and where I am in the game because it DRASTICALLY slows my path to multiple level 370 characters (well, at least I'm pretty sure it does.....it's unlikely that I'll be able to get the latest 12 to 370 before they leave the pool, but the jury is still out on that one).  So you can come on down off your high horse.

Is the point of the game to catch them all or to champ them all?  If the former......haven't you already?  If not BH and event rewards can help.  If the latter, you should still be doing that at the same rate or better. My guess is that you put ISO into those characters because the game is not solely about catching them all, but competing and/or progressing as well.  And so you probably put ISO into the strongest characters you had because those characters allowed you to compete/progress most effectively.  And you hopefully got what you paid for, you probably used your current stock of 4s to be more competitive and progress further through the game.  

The problem now is not with vaulting, but with your mentality.  In your head you thought your only path to success was through all those old 4s that you have because that was how the system was designed.  It would be a LONG time before any new 4 surpassed your old one and so they were ignored for the time being.  Had you known they would start vaulting would you still have invested in those old 4s?  Probably at least some of them - because you'd be unable to progress otherwise.  But the day vaulting started all your plans should have gone out the window.  Your new path to success was changed whether you recognized it or not.  It no longer pays to invest in the older 4s with less than probably 11 covers.  Your new path to success means setting top tier older 4s with 11+ covers to BH and forgetting the rest, focusing more effort on the 12 newest characters - several of which are still top tier, and you will have them champed much sooner than under the previous system.  If you are a 4* player that had a couple 4* champs before you miss out on champ rewards sure, but due to weekly boosts those couple extra champ levels that you would have gotten really don't help your roster nearly as much as the ability to champ more of the newer characters at a faster rate.  Under the old system you were incredibly limited by RNG, now you get older BH 2x faster than previously, and the 12 newer characters come in almost 4x faster.  So now your ability to get characters from 0 to 13 covers has greatly increased which will likely increase your roster diversity and have you competing/progressing better than the old system.

Again, if your goal was the "catch 'em all".....you still have to do that anyway, just now it makes more sense to start with the newer characters rather than the old.