And the rich keep getting richer!

Clintman

What I really don't understand is why D3 is spending this much tweaking on a prize that used to effect 20 people, that will now effect 40 people. The game just hit 2 Million Downloads and this is what we are spending time and capitol on? This is a lot like the debate on executive compensation we have IRL, who cares if the CEO makes 3 Million Vs. 5 Million? I know this restates an already stated point. Work on making decent rewards for the rest of the alliances especially 3-50.

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

We are?? Huh.

Maybe not you but I did, and I have a sneaking suspicion that reckless didn't make a profit either.

reckless442

davecazz wrote:

Nemek wrote:

We are?? Huh.

Maybe not you but I did, and I have a sneaking suspicion that reckless didn't make a profit either.

No, but I've already said I had a different perspective about spending on the game. There was probably a net cost of $3-$4 on shields, but that was because I pushed for 1400. If I had just stayed at 1300, I probably would have been close to even.

Unknown

reckless442 wrote:

davecazz wrote:

Nemek wrote:

We are?? Huh.

Maybe not you but I did, and I have a sneaking suspicion that reckless didn't make a profit either.

No, but I've already said I had a different perspective about spending on the game. There was probably a net cost of $3-$4 on shields, but that was because I pushed for 1400. If I had just stayed at 1300, I probably would have been close to even.

I'm not being critical, it's more about wether the 500hp reward was allowing us to win more than we would normally be winning. I don't think many of us are making a ton of profit that most people think we are making.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

I agree with jozier more than anyone else here on the issue. If you want the first place prize, then win it. I guarantee that there are alliances that pit in more money than the Shield guys do and therefore have more HP to shield with. The reason Shield wins is because they pull out all the stops. They do everything right. They have (most of them) built a very efficient roster. They tank superbly. They play at off times. They play A LOT. They coordinate between each other. The reason nobody has beat them yet is not because they have 500 more HP than anyone (they don't), it's because of all that other stuff.

So there you have it. I have just laid out the plan for any of you to beat Shield. Do those 5 things better than them and you will win number one. It will cost you sleep, family time, possibly work time, and will require that you maniacally obsess over this game for at least the duration of one event. Because that's how they do it; so can you. There is no 'trick' or easy way.

In other words; Shield and other top alliances are at the top mainly because they've 'gone pro' and if anyone else wants a chance at the goodies, then they should be willing to do the same?
If you think that's a valid argument that excuses the problem, you've lost touch with the simple reality that this is a game and that people should be able to treat it as such and still have a reasonable expectation of winning something substantial without hitting the "pro league starts here"-wall.

I fail to see any logical reason or simple reality that explains why the top prize should go to anyone other than the best performing players. Can you please explain to me why someone other than the best performer should receive the top prize?

That does sort of bring up a fun idea, though. What if the prize schedule was 1-49, 50, 51-100, etc. and spot number 50 was the highest paying award? While managing to put your alliance in exactly the #50 spot would be an incredible feat, I'm not sure I would be willing to rule out the idea that Shield could manage even that. That would be pretty funny, though.

Unknown

Look SHIELD win all the time. They are the best at what they do cause they are nerds. complete and utter glasses, side-parting-asthma suffering nerds. Yes people may get fed up at them winning all the time and yes who wouldnt want to knock them off their perch. Heck there are even alliances made just for that purpose *wink wink* BUT it's not their faults they keep winning, IT'S EVERYBODY ELSES.

I know the prize structure is a bit **** and they need to fix it for at least the top 10, which im sure they will get to eventually but until then everyone just needs to either stop complaining or start winning and challenge them. number 1 gets the goods LIKE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. Nobody is gonna get special treatment. I'm sure that us Djangos if we could put our minds to it and actually concentrated for more than, oh look there's a pretty rainbow, then we could upset the odds, but that aint gonna happens as Dlaw008 is holding us back with his constantly **** scores. But you lot could do it if you put your mind to it....maybe. So my point i was trying to make is, The Wolf of Wall Street is a great film and i highly recommend it to everyone.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

That does sort of bring up a fun idea, though. What if the prize schedule was 1-49, 50, 51-100, etc. and spot number 50 was the highest paying award? While managing to put your alliance in exactly the #50 spot would be an incredible feat, I'm not sure I would be willing to rule out the idea that Shield could manage even that. That would be pretty funny, though.

reckless442 would take care of that solo

Dauthi

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

I know the prize structure is a bit tinykitty and they need to fix it for at least the top 10, which im sure they will get to eventually but until then everyone just needs to either stop complaining or start winning and challenge them. number 1 gets the goods LIKE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE.

I highly encourage everyone to continue to complain so that the devs understand that it is a serious problem. That is how things get balanced in games.

Unknown

Anybody who tells you HP is the root of all evil doesn't tinykittying have any.

They say HP can't buy happiness? Look at the tinykittying smile on my face. Ear to ear, baby.

over_clocked

davecazz wrote:

I'm not being critical, it's more about wether

*snort*
*immature giggle*

By the way cutting your rewards from 500 HP is a dickish move, whoever you 1st placers are/will be. EVERYONE IS GETTING POORER IN FACT! That top 50 alliance sub-event reward of 100 ISO? It hurts my feelings.

Edit: oh and 25 HP from standard tokens reward is gone too. It's a drop in the bucket... But still.

Unknown

this game is beautiful because it's not entirely pay to win. even if you are given a free Stark Salary and a Mother Lode today, you will not sniff the coat-tail of SHIELD without being addicted to the extent of destroying your real life.

now even if you are truly devoted, wait! you need to find 19 other like-minded guys to do it with you.

like all games or sports, it's cyclical, this is the era of SHIELD, for now. one day, someone will get tired, get married, have kids. and a **** in the armor will appear... and a new leader will arise.

_RiO_

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

Look SHIELD win all the time. They are the best at what they do cause they are nerds. complete and utter glasses, side-parting-asthma suffering nerds. Yes people may get fed up at them winning all the time and yes who wouldnt want to knock them off their perch. Heck there are even alliances made just for that purpose *wink wink* BUT it's not their faults they keep winning, IT'S EVERYBODY ELSES.

I know the prize structure is a bit tinykitty and they need to fix it for at least the top 10, which im sure they will get to eventually but until then everyone just needs to either stop complaining or start winning and challenge them. number 1 gets the goods LIKE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. Nobody is gonna get special treatment. I'm sure that us Djangos if we could put our minds to it and actually concentrated for more than, oh look there's a pretty rainbow, then we could upset the odds, but that aint gonna happens as Dlaw008 is holding us back with his constantly **** scores. But you lot could do it if you put your mind to it....maybe. So my point i was trying to make is, The Wolf of Wall Street is a great film and i highly recommend it to everyone.

The same "git gud or git out" argument again? Please stop parroting baseless arguments. "Number 1 gets the goods" is not how everything else in life works, in particular in formal sports competitions: minor and major leagues, pro and amateur, weight classes, etc. etc.

dlaw008 wrote:

I fail to see any logical reason or simple reality that explains why the top prize should go to anyone other than the best performing players. Can you please explain to me why someone other than the best performer should receive the top prize?

Because normal people that cannot go to the extreme lengths that the members in top alliances such as Shield are willing to go to, will never have a shot at the meaningful rewards with semi-pro alliances consistently and continuously taking them. Losing out on those rewards impedes progress in roster building, which is pretty much all you have to go on in this game. It's downright frustrating to miss out continuously and know you'll never achieve those rewards without making your life revolve around the game. (Reminds me of the South Park WoW episode; "We're dealing with someone who has absolutely no life.") In the end it just does not feel fair to the majority of players eternally stuck behind 'the elite few'.

The existence of the dedicated semi-pro player in and of itself creates a toxic culture of oppression. One where you end up praying that you aren't bracketed with any of those top players so you atleast still have a sensible shot at the single-player top awards. Where you end up cursing the game and giving up on a PvE event because top players continue to drive up the community scaling. etc. etc.

D3P/Demiurge should have a long and hard look at how long-running and succesful competitive ladder games like Blizzard's Starcraft solve these issues; leagues! Just like in real life sports, many of these problems are avoided by introducing leagues.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

Look SHIELD win all the time. They are the best at what they do cause they are nerds. complete and utter glasses, side-parting-asthma suffering nerds. Yes people may get fed up at them winning all the time and yes who wouldnt want to knock them off their perch. Heck there are even alliances made just for that purpose *wink wink* BUT it's not their faults they keep winning, IT'S EVERYBODY ELSES.

I know the prize structure is a bit tinykitty and they need to fix it for at least the top 10, which im sure they will get to eventually but until then everyone just needs to either stop complaining or start winning and challenge them. number 1 gets the goods LIKE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. Nobody is gonna get special treatment. I'm sure that us Djangos if we could put our minds to it and actually concentrated for more than, oh look there's a pretty rainbow, then we could upset the odds, but that aint gonna happens as Dlaw008 is holding us back with his constantly **** scores. But you lot could do it if you put your mind to it....maybe. So my point i was trying to make is, The Wolf of Wall Street is a great film and i highly recommend it to everyone.

The same "git gud or git out" argument again? Please stop parroting baseless arguments. "Number 1 gets the goods" is not how everything else in life works, in particular in formal sports competitions: minor and major leagues, pro and amateur, weight classes, etc. etc.

you are conveniently forgetting the million others who play the same sports and do not get the millions that Messi or Nadal gets. it's the same situation, the dedicated get paid millions and the 99% of us just play for fun. you can't play it causally and expect the same rewards as the hardcore's. you gonna put out if you want the bling bling's, otherwise you are just asking for a handout

Talahamut

laoahpeh wrote:

you are conveniently forgetting the million others who play the same sports and do not get the millions that Messi or Nadal gets. it's the same situation, the dedicated get paid millions and the 99% of us just play for fun. you can't play it causally and expect the same rewards as the hardcore's. you gonna put out if you want the bling bling's, otherwise you are just asking for a handout

I played tennis a few times in gym class...i can haz Wimbledon plZ???

_RiO_

laoahpeh wrote:

_RiO_ wrote:

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

Look SHIELD win all the time. They are the best at what they do cause they are nerds. complete and utter glasses, side-parting-asthma suffering nerds. Yes people may get fed up at them winning all the time and yes who wouldnt want to knock them off their perch. Heck there are even alliances made just for that purpose *wink wink* BUT it's not their faults they keep winning, IT'S EVERYBODY ELSES.

I know the prize structure is a bit tinykitty and they need to fix it for at least the top 10, which im sure they will get to eventually but until then everyone just needs to either stop complaining or start winning and challenge them. number 1 gets the goods LIKE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE. Nobody is gonna get special treatment. I'm sure that us Djangos if we could put our minds to it and actually concentrated for more than, oh look there's a pretty rainbow, then we could upset the odds, but that aint gonna happens as Dlaw008 is holding us back with his constantly **** scores. But you lot could do it if you put your mind to it....maybe. So my point i was trying to make is, The Wolf of Wall Street is a great film and i highly recommend it to everyone.

The same "git gud or git out" argument again? Please stop parroting baseless arguments. "Number 1 gets the goods" is not how everything else in life works, in particular in formal sports competitions: minor and major leagues, pro and amateur, weight classes, etc. etc.

you are conveniently forgetting the million others who play the same sports and do not get the millions that Messi or Nadal gets. it's the same situation, the dedicated get paid millions and the 99% of us just play for fun. you can't play it causally and expect the same rewards as the hardcore's. you gonna put out if you want the bling bling's, otherwise you are just asking for a handout

And you are conveniently forgetting that pro-athletes in different leagues still make a fair earning and have a fair chance at winning first place within their league and earning a representative prize.

Let's stick with the pro-athelete analogy for a bit to describe the current situation: imagine a pro like Messi or Nadal registering into an open tournament aimed at local minor league competition. You and your peers stare like a deer caught in the headlights when they are announced and take to the field. Naturally you and your peers all find yourself completely steamrolled and buried in the ground. Then when the pro accepts the cup and money prize they hold a victory speech where they claim that: "Remember guys! Everyone can get a shot at this! You can do better next time; you just have to work at it and spend the same effort I have."

Now, I'm pretty sure what kind of terms we would use to qualify any athlete exhibiting this kind of behavior. I'm also sure that most of those terms would not pass any of the profanity filters this forum might have installed, so I'll wisely avoid their explicit use.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

laoahpeh wrote:

you are conveniently forgetting the million others who play the same sports and do not get the millions that Messi or Nadal gets. it's the same situation, the dedicated get paid millions and the 99% of us just play for fun. you can't play it causally and expect the same rewards as the hardcore's. you gonna put out if you want the bling bling's, otherwise you are just asking for a handout

And you are conveniently forgetting that pro-athletes in different leagues still make a fair earning and have a fair chance at winning first place within their league.

Let's stick with the pro-athelete analogy for a bit to describe the current situation: imagine a pro like Messi or Nadal registering into an open tournament aimed at local minor league competition, completely steamrolling you and your peers and burying you all in the ground. Then when they accept the cup and money prize they hold a victory speech where they claim that: "Remember kids! Everyone can get a shot at this! You can do better next time; you just have to work at it and spend the same effort I have."

Now, I'm pretty sure what kind of terms we would use to qualify any athlete exhibiting this kind of behavior. I'm also sure that most of them wouldn't pass any profanity filters this forum has installed, so I'll wisely avoid their explicit use.

The prize below the top tiers easily falls within a reasonable definition of "fair earning". An extra 100HP for being in the Top 50 alliances is pretty reasonable, and would be analogous to what the non-top pro players make for their efforts. The World Cup isn't bracketed, nor is the Super Bowl, nor is any other major sporting event. Not to mention there are plenty of bracketed rewards at the individual level that allow for the "minor league" players to earn, too (i.e. your "within their league" comment). I'm all for getting more rewards out to the non 1-2 tiered teams/players, but to say it's unfair for the top players to receive great prizes commensurate with their efforts just because is wrong.

This analogy also falls apart because Messi and Nadal have superior physical prowess compared to their competitors. The Top players in this game aren't blessed with supernatural match-3 reflexes, and even if they were it wouldn't be that big of an edge. They just play more, and play smarter. It's about as level a playing field as you can get for this type of game. I've taken plenty of hits with a maxed out 141 team from a team of 2* characters (more than I can count), so I'd argue that it's way more fair than Messi and Nadal vs. "minor leaguers".

This isn't directed at you personally, but I've heard this argument so many times now that I feel compelled to respond. "We should be able to play casually and progress" is the general sentiment. Well, you can - just not as fast as those who play less casually.

Unknown

If it upsets you that much then go play a different game where coming 1st doesnt matter. Barbie's Horse Adventure might be more up your street

In all seriousness though i and am sure others fail to see your point that the winners shouldn't get the rewards. If SHIELD are hardcore enough to win it, then fair play to them. If they put their time and energy into it, then so what. They get their rewards. Not every one is going to win. There has to be losers. If everybody was a winner, the game would get boring pretty quick.

if your not in a competitive alliance, then join one and challenge them. If thats not worth your time then play casual. Not everybody has to be hardcore. If this game and its mechanics frustrate you like this then maybe its time to step back a little and enjoy something else. SHIELD will still be SHIELD no matter what happens.

_RiO_

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

If it upsets you that much then go play a different game where coming 1st doesnt matter. Barbie's Horse Adventure might be more up your street

I did place top 10 in a few recent PvP events, thank you very much. Don't mistake a legitimate complaint for whining about the game's difficulty.[/quote]

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

In all seriousness though i and am sure others fail to see your point that the winners shouldn't get the rewards. If SHIELD are hardcore enough to win it, then fair play to them. If they put their time and energy into it, then so what. They get their rewards. Not every one is going to win. There has to be losers. If everybody was a winner, the game would get boring pretty quick.

And again iterating on the same point: you are tossing together casual (amateur) and hardcore dedicated ('pro') players. There will always be winners and losers. Yes. But why can we not have a set of casual winners and losers and a set of hardcore winners and losers? Or do you feel that the hard work you've put into assembling a crack team roster somehow entitles you to earning all those new character rewards while the masses can be left to rot in the dust or fight over your scraps? Because that's the general attitude and vibe of almost any comment flowing down from the top players that hold court on this forum.

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

if your not in a competitive alliance, then join one and challenge them.

Easier said than done. A lot of top alliances place tight restrictions on rosters, which weaker players realistically cannot and will not have or are already at the cap of 20.

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

If thats not worth your time then play casual. Not everybody has to be hardcore.

That's funny. You pretty much claim the opposite. Want a chance at proper roster progression? You need to be hardcore. Spending forever on the infinitesimaly small odds of scoring 3-star cards from tokens does not qualify as 'proper progression'. Going hardcore is mandatory to obtain your cover sets. You are competing directly with other hardcore players no matter if you choose to go casual or hardcore.

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

If this game and its mechanics frustrate you like this then maybe its time to step back a little and enjoy something else. SHIELD will still be SHIELD no matter what happens.

No. What frustrates me is the holier-than-thou response from hardcore players that feel the disproportionate amount of work they put into the game somehow entitles them to having a dictatorial end-say over what is good for the game's playerbase as a whole. What frustrates me is the casual attitude with which real issues affecting the substantially larger lower tier of players are dismissed or otherwise drowned out by many a board-veteran complaining that it is a form of whining about the game's difficulty. You included, with the ad hominem you started.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

TheUnwiseOne wrote:

if your not in a competitive alliance, then join one and challenge them.

Easier said than done. A lot of top alliances place tight restrictions on rosters, which weaker players realistically cannot and will not have or are already at the cap of 20.

the only tight restrictions I can think of were in S.H.I.E.L.D and 5dv. That's far from "a lot".

Unknown

You do have a set of casual winners: you just win less than the hardcore players, and you still haven't shown a compelling reason why this should change.

Your argument boils down to "I don't want to put the time in but I should get the same rewards as the hardcore players and they should be forced to squabble amongst themselves."

And don't kid yourself as a casual player, you post on a forum for the game. Anyone can see right through what you're arguing for and this is what it is:

You want top rewards but don't want to put the effort in at the same level as what you deem to be "hardcore" players. But at the same time, you want all those rewards. So you're asking for a split bracket so you can end up as a "casual player" and then destroy the casual competition to place at the top.

You're not fooling anyone.