Give it time

Tromb2ch2

jgomes32 wrote:

Bonus heroes is such a nice concept, unfortunately extra covers is a bad thing for me. I'm getting more covers from Pve and Pvp progression/placement than iso to level up. Hoarding only goes so far. Something has to change in regards to iso.

There probably will be an influx in iso from the 3* tier with this update. How much I'm not sure of just yet.

OneLastGambit

sinnerjfl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Those tokens you might get what maybe 10 a week at best? But you will get 100's of standards, elites, heroics in a week.

And yes I know that those tokens don't give many 4* covers but the high level of play is mostly 5* and 3* correct? (Read PvP). So I don't know yet how badly this change hampers that.

If anything this change vastly strengthens your 3* and makes it so the 4* you get (the 12 newest) have the potential to be way higher.

So I'm not sure yet if I should sit down and watch things blow over or pick up the pitchfork and run with it. Time will tell.

All that matters is this, its a 5% chance of bonus heroes and that's basically horrible. Champ rewards for 4*'s will be
virtually non-existent (don't tell me to champ the latest 4*'s in the tokens at the moment, its like 4 million iso and those will change every month, not even time to champ and add that many levels).

Believe or not but champ rewards for 4*'s are a big deal, it gives iso/cp/hp on a daily basis and now poof...
all gone except when they show up in pvp/pve/overpriced vaults.

And at around lvl 330, 4*'s are getting pretty damn strong. Well, good luck getting a 4* there under this system.

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

Crowl

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

DrDevilDinosaur wrote:

Now the playerbase is telling me "this too shall pass"?

I've seen it all now.

Well I'm not quite saying that, I'm just saying that there are other features that they mentioned that seemed to have gotten brushed under the massive flames of the forum.

Also I have 11 champed 4* right now and I'm kind of excited for the bonus heroes just because of the 3* aspect.

LAST ONE TO GET STRANG3 TO 266 IS A ROTTEN EGG!

The problem is that they swamped the positive features with an utterly terrible one that only suits a tiny subset of the playerbase, if they reversed or altered the token truncation then we would be hailing bonus heroes and some of the other new stuff as very good changes, but you cannot disconnect the positives from the one major decision that is a huge negative.

Crowl

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

I do believe wasp is the oldest and was teased July last year. So she's been out for like 7 months. Now let's say you start now on agent coulson when he gets added. We can hopefully expect him to be in there for the next 6 months. How many covers do you think you can accumulate for him alone in the next 6 months when the pool of characters is only 12 characters. Bonus characters not included. I believe I have a better chance of getting my agent coulson (who is at 1/2/2) to 330 before I would have my highest other character (who was at 280) before this change. Now is coulson good enough to shoot for idk, but champ rewards will pile up really fast in this new system.

Your estimate of getting a character like Coulson to 330 overlooks all the covers from the other 11 you will be getting, the reality is that some will end up being lopsided characters that waste covers very early and then there will be others that you get to 13 covers more readily but then end up wasting more covers as you won't have enough iso to champ them all.

Tromb2ch2

Crowl wrote:

Your estimate of getting a character like Coulson to 330 overlooks all the covers from the other 11 you will be getting, the reality is that some will end up being lopsided characters that waste covers very early and then there will be others that you get to 13 covers more readily but then end up wasting more covers as you won't have enough iso to champ them all.

And before this change you still ran the risk of things being lopsided so that hasn't really changed. If anything I could be at 12 covers and pull a 13th of a color that is maxed then change my bonus to that character and pull some more and have a better chance at getting a usable 13th cover before the other one dies.

And like I said I foresee a substantial iso influx from the 3* tier with these changes so champing these characters might not be soo bad only time will tell.

Crowl wrote:

The problem is that they swamped the positive features with an utterly terrible one that only suits a tiny subset of the playerbase, if they reversed or altered the token truncation then we would be hailing bonus heroes and some of the other new stuff as very good changes, but you cannot disconnect the positives from the one major decision that is a huge negative.

But is it really that huge of a negative feature? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We haven't really had a lot of time with this new feature to see if it is more beneficial or less beneficial in the long run.

I foresee that whatever the current 12 is will be championed fairly quickly and then it will be a lot easier to get them higher. Right now if you don't have moon knight, wasp, or Peggy champed I might avoid those but from here on out if they keep this structure it will be a lot easier to champ characters in general.

Crowl

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

And before this change you still ran the risk of things being lopsided so that hasn't really changed. If anything I could be at 12 covers and pull a 13th of a color that is maxed then change my bonus to that character and pull some more and have a better chance at getting a usable 13th cover before the other one dies.

And like I said I foresee a substantial iso influx from the 3* tier with these changes so champing these characters might not be soo bad only time will tell.

How, 5% more 3*s is not going to hugely increase matters and the champ rewards for 3*s do not scale up anywhere near as much as the 4*s we have lost access to.

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

But is it really that huge of a negative feature? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We haven't really had a lot of time with this new feature to see if it is more beneficial or less beneficial in the long run.

I foresee that whatever the current 12 is will be championed fairly quickly and then it will be a lot easier to get them higher. Right now if you don't have moon knight, wasp, or Peggy champed I might avoid those but from here on out if they keep this structure it will be a lot easier to champ characters in general.

Yes, it is a huge negative feature as you seem to be making the mistake of equating max-covering with championing, we are not suddenly going to gain a big influx of iso so you are going to have periods where far more covers get wasted due to a number of the latest 12 being max-covered but not having enough iso to champ them all. Realistically, we can probably champ one character every 10-14 days or so, if one is about to leave the latest 12 you have to choose whether they are worth the iso with little chance of subsequent champ rewards or to keep eating the pitiful 1000 iso from wasted covers.

Tromb2ch2

Crowl wrote:

How, 5% more 3*s is not going to hugely increase matters and the champ rewards for 3*s do not scale up anywhere near as much as the 4*s we have lost access to.

But the number of accessable 3* have also been cut in half. And you can get a bonus 3* on standard, elite, heroic, and PvP packs which you get far more often than LL and CL. I have been averaging so far about 2 per day. Which will add up really quickly and the higher levels do give more resources.

Crowl wrote:

Yes, it is a huge negative feature as you seem to be making the mistake of equating max-covering with championing, we are not suddenly going to gain a big influx of iso so you are going to have periods where far more covers get wasted due to a number of the latest 12 being max-covered but not having enough iso to champ them all. Realistically, we can probably champ one character every 10-14 days or so, if one is about to leave the latest 12 you have to choose whether they are worth the iso with little chance of subsequent champ rewards or to keep eating the pitiful 1000 iso from wasted covers.

Realistically it takes us 14 days to champ a 4*. 4*'s get added in no less then 14 days. I'm not quite seeing where we are magically going to run out of iso. If anything once you start maxing these characters we will completely cut our iso deficit out all together. Before we had 40+ characters to champ, now we only have 12. And it's not like a new batch is going to be out later this month, like I said wasp came out 6 months ago. I would at this point in time say jettison the oldest maybe 5 in this group (because 2 are coming in immediately) but once you start champing the rest it will be a lot smoother. Then we will start getting extra iso which you can then choose to put into older characters if you want.

Crowl

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

But the number of accessable 3* have also been cut in half. And you can get a bonus 3* on standard, elite, heroic, and PvP packs which you get far more often than LL and CL. I have been averaging so far about 2 per day. Which will add up really quickly and the higher levels do give more resources.

Realistically it takes us 14 days to champ a 4*. 4*'s get added in no less then 14 days. I'm not quite seeing where we are magically going to run out of iso. If anything once you start maxing these characters we will completely cut our iso deficit out all together. Before we had 40+ characters to champ, now we only have 12. And it's not like a new batch is going to be out later this month, like I said wasp came out 6 months ago. I would at this point in time say jettison the oldest maybe 5 in this group (because 2 are coming in immediately) but once you start champing the rest it will be a lot smoother. Then we will start getting extra iso which you can then choose to put into older characters if you want.

You have been lucky then, I have had zero bonus 3*s so far and relying on rng is not a good argument in favour of a system. In any case the rewards from 3*s simply do not ramp up like they do with 4*s so while they will improve over time, presumably we will get the other half of them brought back at some point and you go back to the lower rate. The change to 3*s is a minor one that will result in us growing our roster roughly 5% faster due to bonus heroes, it won't be a major thing either way.

Your theory about the 4*s is nice in theory, but the reality is that either you try to champ all the latest characters or you will end up wasting a lot more covers e.g. I have already pulled 3 Wasp covers since this change and every one of those is a wasted cover as I am not going to champ her, with a drastically reduced pool of possible covers the chance of going on a bad run of rng screwing you over is greatly increased unless they miraculously stop producing mediocre and poor characters, which seems unlikely since they apparently do not always fully understand the implications of the characters they design and release.

Basically, you have two choices, champ all the new ones or waste a lot more covers and get a lot less champ rewards, neither of which is an overly nice prospect when people have spent the last year steadily champing more of their roster for the benefits you get from championing characters and to minimise the amount by which they get punished by the excessive rng in this game's rewards.

SnowcaTT

Nothing about the Bonus is a bummer.

The VAULTING is a bummer.

GIVE IT TIME?!?!?

Now to draw without to many dead draws, you need to champ 12x4* (400Kish each?) and 3x5* (550Kish each?). Let's ignore tokens and CP.

THAT WILL TAKE ME EIGHT MONTHS. If I draw until then, I'll just be throwing out covers that previously would have (more likely) been champ rewards to get me more resources.

WHY would the game essentially require folks who have played for two years - some have played for almost three! To wait that much longer before they get further progress?!?

OneLastGambit

Crowl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

But the number of accessable 3* have also been cut in half. And you can get a bonus 3* on standard, elite, heroic, and PvP packs which you get far more often than LL and CL. I have been averaging so far about 2 per day. Which will add up really quickly and the higher levels do give more resources.

Realistically it takes us 14 days to champ a 4*. 4*'s get added in no less then 14 days. I'm not quite seeing where we are magically going to run out of iso. If anything once you start maxing these characters we will completely cut our iso deficit out all together. Before we had 40+ characters to champ, now we only have 12. And it's not like a new batch is going to be out later this month, like I said wasp came out 6 months ago. I would at this point in time say jettison the oldest maybe 5 in this group (because 2 are coming in immediately) but once you start champing the rest it will be a lot smoother. Then we will start getting extra iso which you can then choose to put into older characters if you want.

You have been lucky then, I have had zero bonus 3*s so far and relying on rng is not a good argument in favour of a system. In any case the rewards from 3*s simply do not ramp up like they do with 4*s so while they will improve over time, presumably we will get the other half of them brought back at some point and you go back to the lower rate. The change to 3*s is a minor one that will result in us growing our roster roughly 5% faster due to bonus heroes, it won't be a major thing either way.

Your theory about the 4*s is nice in theory, but the reality is that either you try to champ all the latest characters or you will end up wasting a lot more covers e.g. I have already pulled 3 Wasp covers since this change and every one of those is a wasted cover as I am not going to champ her, with a drastically reduced pool of possible covers the chance of going on a bad run of rng screwing you over is greatly increased unless they miraculously stop producing mediocre and poor characters, which seems unlikely since they apparently do not always fully understand the implications of the characters they design and release.

Basically, you have two choices, champ all the new ones or waste a lot more covers and get a lot less champ rewards, neither of which is an overly nice prospect when people have spent the last year steadily champing more of their roster for the benefits you get from championing characters and to minimise the amount by which they get punished by the excessive rng in this game's rewards.

You're making the choice to not champ her here. If you did champ her imagine how quickly you would start wracking up those champ rewards. I'm not saying it's a good thing as like you I am choosing not to champ her but its hard to argue that you're missing out on champ rewards while simultaneously deciding not to champ someone and reap rewards especially when you know said character will likely be pulled at twice the rate of the older characters

Crowl

OneLastGambit wrote:

You're making the choice to not champ her here. If you did champ her imagine how quickly you would start wracking up those champ rewards. I'm not saying it's a good thing as like you I am choosing not to champ her but its hard to argue that you're missing out on champ rewards while simultaneously deciding not to champ someone and reap rewards especially when you know said character will likely be pulled at twice the rate of the older characters

The thing is though that with such a truncated group you are going to have a number of characters getting max covered at a time and realistically there is almost always going to be somebody who is a better option than her, at least under the old system you weren't likely to be drowned in the covers for such characters as they would be spread out across a range of good and bad characters.

n25philly

OneLastGambit wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Those tokens you might get what maybe 10 a week at best? But you will get 100's of standards, elites, heroics in a week.

And yes I know that those tokens don't give many 4* covers but the high level of play is mostly 5* and 3* correct? (Read PvP). So I don't know yet how badly this change hampers that.

If anything this change vastly strengthens your 3* and makes it so the 4* you get (the 12 newest) have the potential to be way higher.

So I'm not sure yet if I should sit down and watch things blow over or pick up the pitchfork and run with it. Time will tell.

All that matters is this, its a 5% chance of bonus heroes and that's basically horrible. Champ rewards for 4*'s will be
virtually non-existent (don't tell me to champ the latest 4*'s in the tokens at the moment, its like 4 million iso and those will change every month, not even time to champ and add that many levels).

Believe or not but champ rewards for 4*'s are a big deal, it gives iso/cp/hp on a daily basis and now poof...
all gone except when they show up in pvp/pve/overpriced vaults.

And at around lvl 330, 4*'s are getting pretty damn strong. Well, good luck getting a 4* there under this system.

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

And for those of us who have never won any of those covers?

Crnch73

If they increased the odds of getting a bonus character, I feel like the vaulting issue would disappear. For instance, my Hulk buster is at 5/1/2. He is never coming out of that vault unless they blow the entire vault up. Or, they could rotate the vault with the latest 12 plus 8 randoms, then rotate one of the randoms out whenever they rotate one of the latest 12 out. Then they rotate the same as always. That cuts the entire pool of all 4's almost in half, but also gives older characters a shot.

Or, like I said, just make BH's happen more often. I am not furious, but a little peeved that my hulk buster is screwed. But if I put him as my bonus character, and they either made those happen more often or had a "slump-buster" for BH's, then he would get covered just as fast... if not faster. Maybe they don't want that to happen, but I feel like it would make the vitriol subside.

astrp3

OneLastGambit wrote:

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

True, but I think the problems many people have with this are:

1) the rate at which you earn them is glacial and will get slower as more 4*s are added
2) in order to earn them, you need to have a useable 4* in the first place

Regarding #2, I have a 3* roster (half of them champed) with no useable 4*s (though I have most of them rostered). I can get 4*s from PvE progression easily (and could do so back when I had a 2* roster). I have never gotten a 4* from PvE placement or PvP placement or progression. I can get to 800 in PvP easily enough, but have yet to get to 900 (partly due to lack of health packs, since I play every PvP and PvE, but I don't know if I'd make it if I did only PvPs either). It may well be that I just stink at the game a could get to 900 and get 4*s from placement with my current roster, but so far, I haven't been able to.

OTOH, I don't see #2 as a huge issue, since I can now more easily get a few of the latest 4*s champed and use them to be more competitive in PvE/PvP.

OneLastGambit

n25philly wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Those tokens you might get what maybe 10 a week at best? But you will get 100's of standards, elites, heroics in a week.

And yes I know that those tokens don't give many 4* covers but the high level of play is mostly 5* and 3* correct? (Read PvP). So I don't know yet how badly this change hampers that.

If anything this change vastly strengthens your 3* and makes it so the 4* you get (the 12 newest) have the potential to be way higher.

So I'm not sure yet if I should sit down and watch things blow over or pick up the pitchfork and run with it. Time will tell.

All that matters is this, its a 5% chance of bonus heroes and that's basically horrible. Champ rewards for 4*'s will be
virtually non-existent (don't tell me to champ the latest 4*'s in the tokens at the moment, its like 4 million iso and those will change every month, not even time to champ and add that many levels).

Believe or not but champ rewards for 4*'s are a big deal, it gives iso/cp/hp on a daily basis and now poof...
all gone except when they show up in pvp/pve/overpriced vaults.

And at around lvl 330, 4*'s are getting pretty damn strong. Well, good luck getting a 4* there under this system.

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

And for those of us who have never won any of those covers?

Valid Point. Touche

Spudgutter

OneLastGambit wrote:

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

While I am not terribly optimistic about the vaulting, I am trying to keep a somewhat open mind. But if you are trying to sway the mind of a casual player that this is OK, do yourself a favor. Stop mentioning placement as an option to maintain progression. 90 percent of a full slice in either pve or PvP are not getting 4* rewards.

broll

Copps wrote:

I think people should at least hold their opinions until revamps to pve that we're talked about on the new puzzle warriors cast. Specifically changing pve to scale based off scl instead of roster and revamping prizes to match.

That could be 6 months away. Yes let's all hold our breath and wait for that.

broll

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Wumpushunter wrote:

Now go delete those 11 champed 4s and then think about how you would feel. Do you feel as calm and ready to "give it time"?

But I have no reason to do this, I still have those 11 champed 4s. There are still ways currently for me to get more covers for these characters (even though I'd rather get covers for other characters).

His point is imagine how you would feel if you didn't have them and now couldn't get them. Would you be so upbeat?

broll

OneLastGambit wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Those tokens you might get what maybe 10 a week at best? But you will get 100's of standards, elites, heroics in a week.

And yes I know that those tokens don't give many 4* covers but the high level of play is mostly 5* and 3* correct? (Read PvP). So I don't know yet how badly this change hampers that.

If anything this change vastly strengthens your 3* and makes it so the 4* you get (the 12 newest) have the potential to be way higher.

So I'm not sure yet if I should sit down and watch things blow over or pick up the pitchfork and run with it. Time will tell.

All that matters is this, its a 5% chance of bonus heroes and that's basically horrible. Champ rewards for 4*'s will be
virtually non-existent (don't tell me to champ the latest 4*'s in the tokens at the moment, its like 4 million iso and those will change every month, not even time to champ and add that many levels).

Believe or not but champ rewards for 4*'s are a big deal, it gives iso/cp/hp on a daily basis and now poof...
all gone except when they show up in pvp/pve/overpriced vaults.

And at around lvl 330, 4*'s are getting pretty damn strong. Well, good luck getting a 4* there under this system.

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

IF you're SCL7 or higher and IF you're willing to treat the game like a second job.

sinnerjfl

OneLastGambit wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

Tromb2ch2 wrote:

Those tokens you might get what maybe 10 a week at best? But you will get 100's of standards, elites, heroics in a week.

And yes I know that those tokens don't give many 4* covers but the high level of play is mostly 5* and 3* correct? (Read PvP). So I don't know yet how badly this change hampers that.

If anything this change vastly strengthens your 3* and makes it so the 4* you get (the 12 newest) have the potential to be way higher.

So I'm not sure yet if I should sit down and watch things blow over or pick up the pitchfork and run with it. Time will tell.

All that matters is this, its a 5% chance of bonus heroes and that's basically horrible. Champ rewards for 4*'s will be
virtually non-existent (don't tell me to champ the latest 4*'s in the tokens at the moment, its like 4 million iso and those will change every month, not even time to champ and add that many levels).

Believe or not but champ rewards for 4*'s are a big deal, it gives iso/cp/hp on a daily basis and now poof...
all gone except when they show up in pvp/pve/overpriced vaults.

And at around lvl 330, 4*'s are getting pretty damn strong. Well, good luck getting a 4* there under this system.

Repeat after me - I can still earn old covers in PVE and PVP progressions and placement

Lets do some math
PVP: 45 x 2.5 days (lenght of event) = 1 cover every 112 days
PVE: 45 X 3.5 days (we get about 2 events/week) = 1 cover every 157 days

Assuming you dont get too many of the same color (which is likely as hell), its gonna take about 2 or 3 years to cover
a vaulted 4*. Does that sound reasonnable?

Placement doesnt count, its too difficult for 99% of people.