Sniper, No Sniping!

boostedseo

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

boostedseo

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

San Narciso

Matt Murdock wrote:

In any case, if you get your kicks off of being a jerk, there is nothing I can do about that. I just want you to know that you are indeed being a jerk (speaking generally to people who purposefully dump and snipe). And maybe it makes you happy to hear that, idk. I dont really care. I just dont want to hear about how sniping is an acceptable form of play. I will put up with it. But stop asking for me to condone it and say there is nothing wrong. It is a lesser way to play. Carry on.

Fightmastermpq

Matt Murdock wrote:

I do think there is a "wrong" way to play. Dumping and sniping people is just a rude thing to do. Is it against the rules? No. Is it a valid way to play the game? Sure. Is it uplifting to the community? No.

To address the point being made about "imaginary rewards". Okay, there is no progression reward after 1200. So what? They may need more points to secure the placement they want. They may need the points for their season score. They may want to help their alliance place well. Likely it is all of the above, which are very real rewards. I fail to see how this is hard to grasp. On top of that, sometimes sniping happens earlier. A lot of people in my slice have been getting sniped *before* they hit 1200 (not just hit, I know they are snipes. When you see someone climb past you then drop down and lurk waiting for you to go out, you can be certain of it). So there is a very real reward you are preventing them from getting.

Im not going to tell anyone how to play the game. I have no right to do so. However, I do believe that you should not limit the game experience of others just because you have the roster to enforce your will on them. Might does not make right. As jack said, at what point does it become bullying? You want to take others' MPQ lunch money? If you want to make comparisons to real life, bullying in school would likely be stopped, even cyber-bullying is frowned upon. Intimidation in the workplace would likely not be tolerated. Why is it allowed in a game? Because it's just a game, sure. But a game that many of us have spent real money on. When you snipe me, you are not gonna stop me from having fun and enjoying the game. All it does is cause me to spend more HP on shields. Essentially, you are saying, "there's no wrong way to play the game.... but because I'm stronger than you I am going to prevent you from playing the way you want to, or basically cause you to waste money if you want to continue playing your way." You say there is no wrong way to play. I would agree, until it gets to the point that you are preventing others from playing the way they choose. At that point, to me it becomes *morally* wrong. You say "do your thing your way". Yet your way, if I understand it correctly (again I am speaking generally about certain snipers, not necessarily you narc), consists of preventing others from playing their way. You say one thing, but mean another. I cant understand what enjoyment can be got from that. I guess its just trolling at the end of the day.

In any case, if you get your kicks off of being a jerk, there is nothing I can do about that. I just want you to know that you are indeed being a jerk (speaking generally to people who purposefully dump and snipe). And maybe it makes you happy to hear that, idk. I dont really care. I just dont want to hear about how sniping is an acceptable form of play. I will put up with it. But stop asking for me to condone it and say there is nothing wrong. It is a lesser way to play. Carry on.

I'm a jerk that spent most of this event bullying other jerks and dumping their points to my friends. Who are these other jerks you didn't ask? Soft Cappers. These are people that abuse the scaling mechanic to put them at an advantage over me in PvE and make it incredibly difficult for me to get placement rewards there. So I do everything I can to try and return the favor in PvP where my roster gives me the advantage. You ever seen anyone show any "etiquette" in PvE? Slowing down, starting late, or skipping subs to be nice to others? It's absurd, and to call someone a jerk for playing a competitive game mode competitively is equally as absurd.

Peej13

Why? Is Canada finally looking to come in from the cold, and try to be relevant?

Gotta go! There's a hockey game on...

SpiderKev wrote:

San Narciso wrote:

Sure our hardwired personal perspectives and metaperspectives divide us (look at the United States right now), but just play the dang game and make the best of it. Am I right? I might not be, but maybe I am. Either way, I hope to see you on the battlefield...

--Narc

I for one would like to hear more about your thoughts and hypotheses about inequalities in America.

Spudgutter

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

I'm a jerk that spent most of this event bullying other jerks and dumping their points to my friends. Who are these other jerks you didn't ask? Soft Cappers. These are people that abuse the scaling mechanic to put them at an advantage over me in PvE and make it incredibly difficult for me to get placement rewards there. So I do everything I can to try and return the favor in PvP where my roster gives me the advantage. You ever seen anyone show any "etiquette" in PvE? Slowing down, starting late, or skipping subs to be nice to others? It's absurd, and to call someone a jerk for playing a competitive game mode competitively is equally as absurd.

I helped beat this dead horse last time it came up, so I figure I'll take a few more wacks at it.

First, I agree with Matt Murdock. That post is way more eloquent than I could come up with.

Second, I think people keep overlooking his point, it's one I have tried to make when this came up before: just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You can hit someone over and over again, but I would argue that they aren't really moral victories, and probably bullying.

Third, (paraphrasing) "playing a competitive game competitively doesn't make me a jerk." Pretty much every competitive game, professional and amateur, have basic guidelines and code of conduct. The rules have evolved because it used to be you could count on people to not break unwritten rules of civility, but people are people. You can't spear in football, punch someone after they are unconscious in MMA, etc.

Fourth and last, I repeat again, if you want to play in a style that most people would describe as being a jerk, you are free to do so. Just don't get all defensive when someone says you are being a jerk. Either accept it, or do the rest of the world a favor and play the game like a civilized person. This may come as a surprise to you, but plenty of people are able to play the game and get the rewards commensurate with the time they put in without needing to be a bully, or to have someone else bully for them.

SpiderKev

There are no hockey games on, liars!
Leafs 4 Redwings 1. Calling it.

Matt Murdock

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

I do think there is a "wrong" way to play. Dumping and sniping people is just a rude thing to do. Is it against the rules? No. Is it a valid way to play the game? Sure. Is it uplifting to the community? No.

To address the point being made about "imaginary rewards". Okay, there is no progression reward after 1200. So what? They may need more points to secure the placement they want. They may need the points for their season score. They may want to help their alliance place well. Likely it is all of the above, which are very real rewards. I fail to see how this is hard to grasp. On top of that, sometimes sniping happens earlier. A lot of people in my slice have been getting sniped *before* they hit 1200 (not just hit, I know they are snipes. When you see someone climb past you then drop down and lurk waiting for you to go out, you can be certain of it). So there is a very real reward you are preventing them from getting.

Im not going to tell anyone how to play the game. I have no right to do so. However, I do believe that you should not limit the game experience of others just because you have the roster to enforce your will on them. Might does not make right. As jack said, at what point does it become bullying? You want to take others' MPQ lunch money? If you want to make comparisons to real life, bullying in school would likely be stopped, even cyber-bullying is frowned upon. Intimidation in the workplace would likely not be tolerated. Why is it allowed in a game? Because it's just a game, sure. But a game that many of us have spent real money on. When you snipe me, you are not gonna stop me from having fun and enjoying the game. All it does is cause me to spend more HP on shields. Essentially, you are saying, "there's no wrong way to play the game.... but because I'm stronger than you I am going to prevent you from playing the way you want to, or basically cause you to waste money if you want to continue playing your way." You say there is no wrong way to play. I would agree, until it gets to the point that you are preventing others from playing the way they choose. At that point, to me it becomes *morally* wrong. You say "do your thing your way". Yet your way, if I understand it correctly (again I am speaking generally about certain snipers, not necessarily you narc), consists of preventing others from playing their way. You say one thing, but mean another. I cant understand what enjoyment can be got from that. I guess its just trolling at the end of the day.

In any case, if you get your kicks off of being a jerk, there is nothing I can do about that. I just want you to know that you are indeed being a jerk (speaking generally to people who purposefully dump and snipe). And maybe it makes you happy to hear that, idk. I dont really care. I just dont want to hear about how sniping is an acceptable form of play. I will put up with it. But stop asking for me to condone it and say there is nothing wrong. It is a lesser way to play. Carry on.

I'm a jerk that spent most of this event bullying other jerks and dumping their points to my friends. Who are these other jerks you didn't ask? Soft Cappers. These are people that abuse the scaling mechanic to put them at an advantage over me in PvE and make it incredibly difficult for me to get placement rewards there. So I do everything I can to try and return the favor in PvP where my roster gives me the advantage. You ever seen anyone show any "etiquette" in PvE? Slowing down, starting late, or skipping subs to be nice to others? It's absurd, and to call someone a jerk for playing a competitive game mode competitively is equally as absurd.

The difference there is, people are just doing the best they can in PvE. They are not actively undermining the performance of others. They just perform better. You can do the same thing in PvP with your roster, without resorting to preventing others from getting points.

Matt Murdock

boostedseo wrote:

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

The difference is, snipers do well by making others do worse. Those who inflate points simply do their best. They are not actively impeding the progress of others.

boostedseo

Disagree. Point inflation makes people push past progression and expend resources to do so. It also requires collusion that alienates those who don't choose to be in truce rooms with hundreds if people. Grilling allows lesser rosters more points by artificially lowering your best team to a level others can beat.
How is sandbagging not hurting others? If a roster less than mine can out place me, and I'm not supposed to hit them without asking, explain where the competitive nature lies?
And even if you don't have a valid answer I'll still give you a participation award.

Sm0keyJ0e

Matt Murdock wrote:

boostedseo wrote:

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

The difference is, snipers do well by making others do worse. Those who inflate points simply do their best. They are not actively impeding the progress of others.

Ummm... dude. That is a valid strategy that exists in EVERY sport. Basketball teams will employ a slow-down defense to prevent high-scoring teams from scoring too many points. Pitchers in baseball will pitch around the other team's best hitter to prevent runs from scoring. Football teams double-cover the other team's best receiver. Are these all examples of unethical play in your mind?

The object is to outscore the opponent, but there are plenty of ways to do this without engaging in a shield hopping, time sucking, coordinated scorefest where you're checking 200+ other players. Not everyone wants to spend more on shields than you earn in rewards.

Spudgutter

boostedseo wrote:

Disagree. Point inflation makes people push past progression and expend resources to do so. It also requires collusion that alienates those who don't choose to be in truce rooms with hundreds if people. Grilling allows lesser rosters more points by artificially lowering your best team to a level others can beat.
How is sandbagging not hurting others? If a roster less than mine can out place me, and I'm not supposed to hit them without asking, explain where the competitive nature lies?
And even if you don't have a valid answer I'll still give you a participation award.

I agree that collusion and grilling and that stuff are not the intended outcome the Devs planned on. But if someone with a lesser roster than mine wants to put in that extra time and effort to get better rewards, than so be it. My argument, I don't know about Murdock, is that snipers keeping others down just to help those are jerks. And I would use stronger language then the forums would allow to describe them if I could

Spudgutter

Sm0keyJ0e wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

boostedseo wrote:

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

The difference is, snipers do well by making others do worse. Those who inflate points simply do their best. They are not actively impeding the progress of others.

Ummm... dude. That is a valid strategy that exists in EVERY sport. Basketball teams will employ a slow-down defense to prevent high-scoring teams from scoring too many points. Pitchers in baseball will pitch around the other team's best hitter to prevent runs from scoring. Football teams double-cover the other team's best receiver. Are these all examples of unethical play in your mind?

The object is to outscore the opponent, but there are plenty of ways to do this without engaging in a shield hopping, time sucking, coordinated scorefest where you're checking 200+ other players. Not everyone wants to spend more on shields than you earn in rewards.

I just replied to the one above you, and I think my response fits there as well. People who inflate their scores by extra, time consuming means, are not the issue, I don't think so anyways. Besides, you are comparing team activities to solo events. Apples and oranges. I thought we were talking about snipers?

Fightmastermpq

Matt Murdock wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

I do think there is a "wrong" way to play. Dumping and sniping people is just a rude thing to do. Is it against the rules? No. Is it a valid way to play the game? Sure. Is it uplifting to the community? No.

To address the point being made about "imaginary rewards". Okay, there is no progression reward after 1200. So what? They may need more points to secure the placement they want. They may need the points for their season score. They may want to help their alliance place well. Likely it is all of the above, which are very real rewards. I fail to see how this is hard to grasp. On top of that, sometimes sniping happens earlier. A lot of people in my slice have been getting sniped *before* they hit 1200 (not just hit, I know they are snipes. When you see someone climb past you then drop down and lurk waiting for you to go out, you can be certain of it). So there is a very real reward you are preventing them from getting.

Im not going to tell anyone how to play the game. I have no right to do so. However, I do believe that you should not limit the game experience of others just because you have the roster to enforce your will on them. Might does not make right. As jack said, at what point does it become bullying? You want to take others' MPQ lunch money? If you want to make comparisons to real life, bullying in school would likely be stopped, even cyber-bullying is frowned upon. Intimidation in the workplace would likely not be tolerated. Why is it allowed in a game? Because it's just a game, sure. But a game that many of us have spent real money on. When you snipe me, you are not gonna stop me from having fun and enjoying the game. All it does is cause me to spend more HP on shields. Essentially, you are saying, "there's no wrong way to play the game.... but because I'm stronger than you I am going to prevent you from playing the way you want to, or basically cause you to waste money if you want to continue playing your way." You say there is no wrong way to play. I would agree, until it gets to the point that you are preventing others from playing the way they choose. At that point, to me it becomes *morally* wrong. You say "do your thing your way". Yet your way, if I understand it correctly (again I am speaking generally about certain snipers, not necessarily you narc), consists of preventing others from playing their way. You say one thing, but mean another. I cant understand what enjoyment can be got from that. I guess its just trolling at the end of the day.

In any case, if you get your kicks off of being a jerk, there is nothing I can do about that. I just want you to know that you are indeed being a jerk (speaking generally to people who purposefully dump and snipe). And maybe it makes you happy to hear that, idk. I dont really care. I just dont want to hear about how sniping is an acceptable form of play. I will put up with it. But stop asking for me to condone it and say there is nothing wrong. It is a lesser way to play. Carry on.

I'm a jerk that spent most of this event bullying other jerks and dumping their points to my friends. Who are these other jerks you didn't ask? Soft Cappers. These are people that abuse the scaling mechanic to put them at an advantage over me in PvE and make it incredibly difficult for me to get placement rewards there. So I do everything I can to try and return the favor in PvP where my roster gives me the advantage. You ever seen anyone show any "etiquette" in PvE? Slowing down, starting late, or skipping subs to be nice to others? It's absurd, and to call someone a jerk for playing a competitive game mode competitively is equally as absurd.

The difference there is, people are just doing the best they can in PvE. They are not actively undermining the performance of others. They just perform better. You can do the same thing in PvP with your roster, without resorting to preventing others from getting points.

I can or I can do both at the same time. It's Versus, as in Player Versus Player. I like to play both offense AND defense which involves not just scoring high myself (I took 1st in my bracket by the way) but also preventing others from scoring high by hitting them for as many points as possible.

San Narciso

Besides, you are comparing team activities to solo events. Apples and oranges. I thought we were talking about snipers?

Some would call my entire team coordinated snipers that treat every PVP like a team event. Each event we have a different mission that we self-ascribe. Keeps the game fresh. So it's one in the same for us.

Matt Murdock

Sm0keyJ0e wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

boostedseo wrote:

@Matt Murdock
Couldn't you also argue that "snipers" improve the position of themselves and their team by lowering the score of others?
It's easy to justify point inflation if it's your preferred means of play, but the same counterpoint exists. Just have to change your perspective.
If I say lowering the scores of others helps me, that doesn't make it any more right than point inflation.

The difference is, snipers do well by making others do worse. Those who inflate points simply do their best. They are not actively impeding the progress of others.

Ummm... dude. That is a valid strategy that exists in EVERY sport. Basketball teams will employ a slow-down defense to prevent high-scoring teams from scoring too many points. Pitchers in baseball will pitch around the other team's best hitter to prevent runs from scoring. Football teams double-cover the other team's best receiver. Are these all examples of unethical play in your mind?

The object is to outscore the opponent, but there are plenty of ways to do this without engaging in a shield hopping, time sucking, coordinated scorefest where you're checking 200+ other players. Not everyone wants to spend more on shields than you earn in rewards.

I have no interest in being involved in a big flame war, so this will probably be my last reply.

While I acknowledged it as a valid strategy, that doesn't mean its okay with me. If I were the best hitter on a baseball team, I know I would be very frustrated if I worked for a long time at that skill and never got a chance to use it, because of other teams employing that tactic. Likewise, it is very frustrating when you get sniped on multiple hops and all you are trying to do is get your 1200 CP and be done with it. My point is, there are ways to play the game without souring the experience of others. I feel that a considerate person would try to do that.

For the record, I never suggested that everyone should join a shield check room. Or that anyone should expect to not get hit. Hits are part of the game, you get them, you move on (if you are a sensible person). Everyone is free to play as they choose, its just that going out of your way to ruin someone else's time just isn't cool in my book. I've had several events just totally ruined by being in brackets with certain snipers. Not just one hop or something. Almost every hop. That kind of sustained "malice", if you will, is not pleasant, no matter how you want to spin it. And the fact is, most snipers have strong rosters. They can already score very highly without having to spend much HP at all. Going with the baseball metaphor.... it's as if the Yanks were playing the Twins, and decided to peg all their best hitters when they get up to bat. It's not like the Twins were going to win anyway, at least let them keep their dignity.

Anyway, I'm not crying over it. I will figure out a way to do my best regardless. But I know this type of thing makes others want to give up, and makes the game less fun for them. A game is supposed to be fun. If you are taking that fun experience away from someone else it seems unsportsmanlike. I'm done.

Fightmastermpq

Spudgutter wrote:

But if someone with a lesser roster than mine wants to put in that extra time and effort to get better rewards, than so be it. My argument, I don't know about Murdock, is that snipers keeping others down just to help those are jerks. And I would use stronger language then the forums would allow to describe them if I could

Then why have PvP at all? Why even allow people to lose points? I'm sorry, but not everyone wants to spend 2k HP/event trying to score as high as possible and secure a T5 placement. I think I'll keep playing defense so that I get my T5 placement without spending a fortune every event.

Matt Murdock

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Matt Murdock wrote:

I do think there is a "wrong" way to play. Dumping and sniping people is just a rude thing to do. Is it against the rules? No. Is it a valid way to play the game? Sure. Is it uplifting to the community? No.

To address the point being made about "imaginary rewards". Okay, there is no progression reward after 1200. So what? They may need more points to secure the placement they want. They may need the points for their season score. They may want to help their alliance place well. Likely it is all of the above, which are very real rewards. I fail to see how this is hard to grasp. On top of that, sometimes sniping happens earlier. A lot of people in my slice have been getting sniped *before* they hit 1200 (not just hit, I know they are snipes. When you see someone climb past you then drop down and lurk waiting for you to go out, you can be certain of it). So there is a very real reward you are preventing them from getting.

Im not going to tell anyone how to play the game. I have no right to do so. However, I do believe that you should not limit the game experience of others just because you have the roster to enforce your will on them. Might does not make right. As jack said, at what point does it become bullying? You want to take others' MPQ lunch money? If you want to make comparisons to real life, bullying in school would likely be stopped, even cyber-bullying is frowned upon. Intimidation in the workplace would likely not be tolerated. Why is it allowed in a game? Because it's just a game, sure. But a game that many of us have spent real money on. When you snipe me, you are not gonna stop me from having fun and enjoying the game. All it does is cause me to spend more HP on shields. Essentially, you are saying, "there's no wrong way to play the game.... but because I'm stronger than you I am going to prevent you from playing the way you want to, or basically cause you to waste money if you want to continue playing your way." You say there is no wrong way to play. I would agree, until it gets to the point that you are preventing others from playing the way they choose. At that point, to me it becomes *morally* wrong. You say "do your thing your way". Yet your way, if I understand it correctly (again I am speaking generally about certain snipers, not necessarily you narc), consists of preventing others from playing their way. You say one thing, but mean another. I cant understand what enjoyment can be got from that. I guess its just trolling at the end of the day.

In any case, if you get your kicks off of being a jerk, there is nothing I can do about that. I just want you to know that you are indeed being a jerk (speaking generally to people who purposefully dump and snipe). And maybe it makes you happy to hear that, idk. I dont really care. I just dont want to hear about how sniping is an acceptable form of play. I will put up with it. But stop asking for me to condone it and say there is nothing wrong. It is a lesser way to play. Carry on.

I'm a jerk that spent most of this event bullying other jerks and dumping their points to my friends. Who are these other jerks you didn't ask? Soft Cappers. These are people that abuse the scaling mechanic to put them at an advantage over me in PvE and make it incredibly difficult for me to get placement rewards there. So I do everything I can to try and return the favor in PvP where my roster gives me the advantage. You ever seen anyone show any "etiquette" in PvE? Slowing down, starting late, or skipping subs to be nice to others? It's absurd, and to call someone a jerk for playing a competitive game mode competitively is equally as absurd.

The difference there is, people are just doing the best they can in PvE. They are not actively undermining the performance of others. They just perform better. You can do the same thing in PvP with your roster, without resorting to preventing others from getting points.

I can or I can do both at the same time. It's Versus, as in Player Versus Player. I like to play both offense AND defense which involves not just scoring high myself (I took 1st in my bracket by the way) but also preventing others from scoring high by hitting them for as many points as possible.

Grats, Fightmaster. I was in your bracket, lol. Had a #drop so that didn't help either (not that I was ever going for first). Regardless, my point is you really don't have to do that to get first. You do it frequently without sniping. Anyway, I said my piece. Have fun.

BoyWonder1914

The underlying problem here is the mechanic of PVP itself - unless the opponent is shielded, then you gaining points by default means that they must lose some. We would not be having this discussion if a hit didn't mean you losing points. In my honest opinion, PVP wouldn't be any less fun or competitive if they took that mechanic away. People with stronger rosters would still see the benefits of having a strong roster, and people that aren't quite into 4* territory wouldn't have to be so discouraged from trying to reach progression rewards higher than 575 without getting their score destroyed by whales and people that are ages ahead of them in term of roster development. Just like PVE, the top rewards will go to the people who work the hardest period, not just the people with insane rosters and copious amounts of HP to spare.

But I digress on that. At the end of the day, my point is that the game wouldn't be any less enjoyable for you if they take away your ability to bring someone else down. A rising tide raises all ships, which was the original premise of the cupcake system to begin with. Everyone last one of us is here to improve our roster, and someone else making their roster better doesn't take anything away from yours. Sure placement rewards are only given to the highest scores at a certain level, but if John Doe is 10 points ahead of me and I want to take his spot in the t5, I DON'T HAVE TO HIT JOHN DOE TO GET THERE. There are literally thousands of other players out there in any given slice for you to possibly beat in order to increase your own score. John Doe also doesn't have to attack YOU in order to get his spot back. So John Doe going out of his way to make sure he hits you directly is an **** move, by any definition. We all knock each other down in some way or another with the current system as we're climbing, but taking the time to make sure you hit someone repeatedly is intentionally kicking someone while they are down. You don't have to kick someone while they're down to improve your alliance and allies' score. Sportsmanship is a concept that exists in any form of competition, even ACTUAL FIGHTING, so it isn't any less uncouth just because you're doing it from a handheld device. Game or not, respect is respect, and there is a such thing as crossing the line. If I'm worth 75 points, great! Go for yours! No one in the MPQ universe would blame you. But when you go so far as to decrease your own points to try and make a specific person's life miserable when there's literally thousands of other targets that's called being an ****. There's literally nothing you can say to change that.

xKOBALTx

I'm mostly indifferent to this whole thing (every time it happens ). Valid points on both sides and misguided points on both sides. It's the very nature of how this PvP system works, or doesn't.

That being said: OP, you and your alliance are not the first to come into a specific time slice on a mission to rock the boat and bring it to the forum. You won't be the last. You also won't be the first to eventually give up and move on. It's happened time and again... History repeats itself... Story as old as time... and all other such clichés.