** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

Bacon Pants

I can see how OBW is annoying if you don't have the roster to dispatch her, but she is in no way ruining PVP. There's an annoying person at each star level...Storm for 1 stars (or Iron Man because of the protect tiles) OBW for two stars, and Spidey or Hood for three stars. (four stars are still irrelevant) While annoying, they are all manageable as they are all pretty squishy.

I have the ability now where if I see those characters as opponents I usually match them with the same character, or a similar character. If the opponent runs OBW, Spidey, or Hood I put my Spidey or OBW out against them. (Hood isn't leveled enough yet to be effective). This effectively neutralizes them as you balance them out with your doppelganger.

Unknown

I'll confess that OBW is my top spot character and my favourite to play with. But when it comes to her on enemy PVP teams - I pretty much always target her first and haven't found her to be all that tough.

Phaserhawk

CaptainBatman wrote:

I've been running 3/5/5 since she was released. Like you I've found as I've increased my teams roster and strength I've relied on her less.

I've started to move her to a 5/5/3 build as the extra damage on a match doesn't matter if she isn't the one making the match. With a 5/5/3 I'm happy to have her safe in the back with stronger characters out front.

As much as I understand the 5/5/3 I think if you choose not to have her matching and doing double dmg with her black passive, I think she is lacking. I really truly believe you need her with at least 4 in black. Where the big problem with 3/5/5 that I am having is that you can come out of the gate matching like crazy, and make a smart cast of aggressive recon and set up your game, but that's it your usually done, because if you keep matching with OBW she's gonna die, her healing can't stop that many hits. This is where I have had the thought of going to 5/4/4 or 5/3/5. But even that I'm not so sure anymore. I have analyzed perhaps where my problem has been coming from and that is I have been running her with Patch and I find that it can be very problematic. Yes you get the strike tiles and that allows her to do tons of damage, but if you want to not take a lot of damage back, you are going to have to clear their purple strike tiles which means putting OBW on the front line taking dmg, and that is not good because it's basically her dead on their next turn. And I think that has been where my problem has been lately, she does not really pair well with Patch as much as you may think. Punisher yes, but Patch not so much. So I'm going to stop running her with Patch and perhaps pair her up with Psylocke, those two might actually get along.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Where the big problem with 3/5/5 that I am having is that you can come out of the gate matching like crazy, and make a smart cast of aggressive recon and set up your game, but that's it your usually done, because if you keep matching with OBW she's gonna die, her healing can't stop that many hits. This is where I have had the thought of going to 5/4/4 or 5/3/5.

Wow, we're having a convert

Phaserhawk wrote:

But even that I'm not so sure anymore. I have analyzed perhaps where my problem has been coming from and that is I have been running her with Patch and I find that it can be very problematic. Yes you get the strike tiles and that allows her to do tons of damage, but if you want to not take a lot of damage back, you are going to have to clear their purple strike tiles which means putting OBW on the front line taking dmg, and that is not good because it's basically her dead on their next turn.

Well, if that is a realistic problem, maybe use her with less dangerous company, in old times **Wolvie was no-brainer, even after nerf he still creates fine strikes just as Daken. Punisher, BP -- though taking over plack also do the trick. With patch you need to play carefully, restrict to 3-4 green (good idea anyway unless you play with mags or spidey), shoot when can contain the damage and can heal somewhat.

I used OBW a lot for that extra damage and it works fine in practice. Yes she loses health temporarily and you have to keep blue ready to heal her back from 1500 maybe 1000. But all that extra damage to the opponent makes sure you take less overall damage due to faster win, so it is a very good investment.

Phaserhawk wrote:

And I think that has been where my problem has been lately, she does not really pair well with Patch as much as you may think. Punisher yes, but Patch not so much. So I'm going to stop running her with Patch and perhaps pair her up with Psylocke, those two might actually get along.

I used her with 3G patch without any problem worth mentioning. But sure explore all the other options.

Unknown

I don't have a well covered OBW and I fight them a lot. I'm nearly maxed 2*. She's frail but her squishiness is a little overexaggerated and I feel that a lot of people who claim that they can down her very quickly have L100 rosters. With the wrong board, she can absolutely ruin your day, either negating her frailty with her blue, or destroying you with her purple (often times being able to fire off her purple BECAUSE that blue bought her some more time). However I don't find her broken at all, just really really dangerous. A Thor, or Wolverine or C Storm can ruin you if you have a bad board to play with. They are all very dangerous but I'd have trouble claiming that all 4 of them are broken.

The only issue I have with OBW is that there aren't many good purple choices for 2*s, so denying purple is essentially losing turns (that she can use to collect blue...). You're kinda pidgeonholed into either using OBW for yourself, or using C Storm/MN Mags combo. Otherwise you just accept the fact that you have to burn turns doing nothing just to counter OBW.

Here's the list of 2*s with Purples:
OBW - Good skill, mentioned above
MN Mags - Good skill, mentioned above. You're just gonna be stuck with a horrible defensive team
Bullseye - Passive, you're still doing nothing with the purple. Also... you're using Bullseye
Daken - Passive, again purple is unused
Hawkeye - Passive...
Moonstone - No experience with it but I guess this can be an alright skill if you're OK with using Moonstone
Bagman - lol...

There's an abundance of purple skills but a good chunk of them are passives so you're just gathering purple and doing nothing with it. A Moonstone buff could be an interesting way of "balancing" OBW. I think having one additional option to counter OBW is enough to off-set her danger level. I don't think she's overpowered, I'd just like more options to neutralize her purple

Phaserhawk

What OBW are you running again pasa_ If I remember correctly its 5/3/5 right?

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

What OBW are you running again pasa_ If I remember correctly its 5/3/5 right?

Sure . Since the poll started 3 other fellows showed up, some good thinking out there

Unknown

5/5/3 for pvp and pve，3/5/5 for pvp

Unknown

noknuckles wrote:

Bullseye - Passive, you're still doing nothing with the purple. Also... you're using Bullseye

Bullesye's passive has downed me on several occasions - once he's got 4 protect tiles up it's almost impossible to damage the enemy team. He doesn't do a lot of damage but he's worth having on the team just for the auto protect tiles - particularly if you're using another character that can use the purple in other skills!

Unknown

noknuckles wrote:

I don't have a well covered OBW and I fight them a lot. I'm nearly maxed 2*. She's frail but her squishiness is a little overexaggerated and I feel that a lot of people who claim that they can down her very quickly have L100 rosters.

You don't have to have L100 teams to down OBW. You just focus on her first with a fast hero (cheap damage abilities) like A.Wolvie. You need to keep an eye on her purple and blue though. If you let her use Aggressive Recon, it will be difficult to return to the game. Sometimes a random cascade can do you in but it's the same with any other hero.

Unknown

dreyat wrote:

noknuckles wrote:

Bullseye - Passive, you're still doing nothing with the purple. Also... you're using Bullseye

Bullesye's passive has downed me on several occasions - once he's got 4 protect tiles up it's almost impossible to damage the enemy team. He doesn't do a lot of damage but he's worth having on the team just for the auto protect tiles - particularly if you're using another character that can use the purple in other skills!

But wasn't he lvl200 and up? Regular bulls can only go to 69 so his shields are just puny. And would take place (and iso) from an actually useful character. Guess why he is mostly restricted to tank teams.

Unknown

Down with the system! Anarchy '99!

Oh, and I voted. I saw the light of 3/5/5 and she just tears things up with that build.

Unknown

Bacon Pants wrote:

Turns out I am the only 4-4-5 vote so far. I'm happy with this set up...I don't use OBW too much these days, she fills a niche role now.

I'm with you Bacon Pants. 4/4/5. When I face another OBW then I believe it's three purple matches to trigger it at 10 AP. She steals one from me and then I steal two back. At 5/X/X you basically need to match 4x3 purple and deny the opponent OBW to match any from you. Unless the opponent gets the first match then you only need 3x3 purple matches as you steal the extra AP to trigger at 11.

Stealing 4 of every other colour except purple is great when you're running her with Heroes with expensive abilities (>10AP) like Thor or C.Storm.

I've never tried running her at 3/x/x but I find that when I face an OBW built like that I can recover more easily than if hit by Aggressive recon at 4 or 5.

EDIT: My team is still 2* so 5 in Espionage seems to do loads of damage over time. 5 in Blue isn't worth it if the amount healed isn't improved. Most of the time I can clear countdown tiles before healing.

Phaserhawk

why go 4/4/5 when 5/3/5 is the better choice for only one more AP you get the benefit of stealing purple and the diff in 4 blue to 3 blue is nothing. 3/5/5 is a whole different beast as it falls into the 3 match category where Aggressive recond 4 and 5 fall into the 4 match category. If you always play with a +1 purple boost, okay, 4/4/5 is better than 5/3/5 in speed, but unboosted 4/4/5 makes no sense compared to 5/3/5

Unknown

I think once I transitioned into that next bracket from the seemingly-beginner pool, I hated OBW. Now though, I mostly roll through them. Sure, she may be a little overpowered for what she is supposed to do (support), but not so much as to ruin PVP.

Mawtful

noknuckles wrote:

A Moonstone buff could be an interesting way of "balancing" OBW. I think having one additional option to counter OBW is enough to off-set her danger level. I don't think she's overpowered, I'd just like more options to neutralize her purple

I like this idea.

It really cuts to the real reason of why OBW is considered overpowered - she's got such breadth of support available, and often without any other options available at the 2* level. Turning Moonstone into a kind of "Dark" Black Widow in terms of gameplay could be very interesting.

Moonstone's already got a greater health pool, meaning she has tankiness to contrast "frail" OBW. We just need to tweak her powers a little.

Photon Blast is more or less considered Moonstone's best skill, but I think it could stand some improvement. I suggest giving it a "mana burn" type effect, either granting extra damage is based off the opponents' AP pools or destroying X AP (selected colours at lower ranks, up to a little bit from each pool at 5 ranks). This means you're not stuck waiting for the board to replenish red in order to maximise damage, and you can penalise your opponent for stockpiling AP. This does start to make this dangerously close to being a "do everything" skill, so I think there's no change on AP cost, and depending on which "AP burn" option is used maybe even a slight decrease to base damage (that is: small base damage + X damage per AP that opponent has).

Gravity Warp probably needs the most work. I've come up with something completely different. Moonstone creates a random gravity warp(places a gravity icon on a tile). When that tile is matched, the gravity warp collapses, destroying the surrounding tiles for additional damage. Increasing ranks would grant a second warp tile to place; linked warps, so that when one is matched all warps collapse, and eventually the ability to target the placement of the warps. I think this makes for an interesting support skill, it provides a little bit of extra damage, and the collapse can be used to pick off pesky countdown or other special tiles that you might not be able to match directly. I would put the "linking" at rank 4 and the targeting at rank 5, since the skill is now very much a support skill with no direct damage itself, I think it needs to become more interesting as you level it up. I would also make this a dreaded "increasing AP cost" skill, starting at 6 AP at rank 1 and gaining +1 AP cost per rank - this would make the rank 5 skill cost 10 AP.

Moonstone is described as a master manipulator, and Control Shift is supposed to be the skill that shows this off. I think enough has been said about this skill already. For it's cost, it should be a game-maker; and it should definitely be targeted and not random. I like the stun, that can probably stay. I would change the skill to be targeted, and by rank 5 it should allow you to steal any special tile, whether it's a cooldown, strike, protect, etc. Moonstone doesn't generate any of these herself, and I this would go a long way to positioning her as more of a beefy front line support type character.

Unknown

Mawtful wrote:

Gravity Warp probably needs the most work. I've come up with something completely different. Moonstone creates a random gravity warp(places a gravity icon on a tile). When that tile is matched, the gravity warp collapses, destroying the surrounding tiles for additional damage. Increasing ranks would grant a second warp tile to place; linked warps, so that when one is matched all warps collapse, and eventually the ability to target the placement of the warps. I think this makes for an interesting support skill, it provides a little bit of extra damage, and the collapse can be used to pick off pesky countdown or other special tiles that you might not be able to match directly. I would put the "linking" at rank 4 and the targeting at rank 5, since the skill is now very much a support skill with no direct damage itself, I think it needs to become more interesting as you level it up. I would also make this a dreaded "increasing AP cost" skill, starting at 6 AP at rank 1 and gaining +1 AP cost per rank - this would make the rank 5 skill cost 10 AP.

Whoa, great idea! Won't mind if this is the only change they do for Moonstone. Although, while they're at it... might as well tinker with control shift.

Also to weigh in on the OBW situation, I'd agree that she's not the problem but it's the lack of purple 2* alternatives. Last month I hated the guts out of OBW, I'd skip her everytime. Although ever since I used C. Storm / MN Mags against her, I no longer fear her in the PvPs. Even if I'm not using MN Mags I know enough to down her first, deny her a little bit of purple and poof thar she blows. I do lose to her team once in a while, but not enough to cry out for a nerfing bat (plus I've begun to collect her covers, so be cool guys, let me join in the fun first. )

Unknown

thenoblegamer wrote:

Also to weigh in on the OBW situation, I'd agree that she's not the problem but it's the lack of purple 2* alternatives. Last month I hated the guts out of OBW, I'd skip her everytime. Although ever since I used C. Storm / MN Mags against her, I no longer fear her in the PvPs. Even if I'm not using MN Mags I know enough to down her first, deny her a little bit of purple and poof thar she blows. I do lose to her team once in a while, but not enough to cry out for a nerfing bat (plus I've begun to collect her covers, so be cool guys, let me join in the fun first. )

Yep, C. Storm and M. Mags is a devastating attack against OBW, I think. But really, as long as I single her out from the start, I don't have much of a problem now that C. Storm is 85 for me.

Phaserhawk

Trust me, once you get a little farther in your character builds, and get some lvl141's, OBW quicly becomes outshined and if you go into PvP with say Punisher/OBW/LazyThor you are gonna get hit hard by the big boys because they look at your lineup and say, oh, they really only have 2 guys and I have Patch, LazyThor, and Magneto, yeah, I win. In the 2* realm when you are running a mix of C.Storm,Thor,Wolvie,Ares, and OBW and transitiion to 3* she is unbelievable and actually needed in order to compete, but in time you will notice you don't always want her in your team comp, then you find that you are using her less because you want your lvl 100 Hood with your 141 Punisher and 141 Captain, and that is when you outgrow her.

vudu3

While I don't agree that OBW is necessarily overpowered, I definitely feel the fatigue of fighting her constantly in PVP. The best part of the current BWGS tourney is I haven't seen a OBW in 3 days.