Chandra, Torch of Defiance Tweaks

GrizzoMtGPQ

@hibernum_will @hibernum_jc want to sell a lot of these and make her suck less? Try this:

Make Chandra, Torch of Defiance a Red and Black Planeswalker.

- change ability #1 to cost 6 and read as follows: Destroy 4 non-red, non-black, non-energized gems and Energize 4.
- change ability #3 to cost 18 and read as follows: Create a support with "Whenever anyone draws a card, destroy 1 Energized gem and deal 8 damage to your opponent."

Then she would be a must have and everyone would WANT to play with her.

Yvendros

agree. her ultimate is more expensive and is strictly worse than Ob's ult. doesn't make sense.

wereotter

Her current ultimate is in line with her printed card and can be brutal so far as I've seen playing her, if you load her up with cheap spells and have things like Bombat Courrier to refill your hand, though I agree that it's over costed for what it does. Also I'd say it needs to not remove energy. Once we've gotten to the point of getting 24 loyalty to get that out, it should just deal damage whenever we cast a card, not also at the cost of removing energy.

I 100% agree with the change to her first ability, and would even be fine if it was just non-energized gems since she constantly destroys energized gems when I've used the ability.

Dologan

To be fair, I think making her a Red/Black PW would be hard to justify thematically, despite her mana gains. The character doesn't really have anything to do with the general theme of black and she's always been a quintessentially pure red character. It wouldn't make sense to make her Red/Black while Jace2 is still pure Blue and Lili2 is still pure Black.

That said, I agree that tweaks to her abilities seem be needed to make her at least tempting to use, let alone buy. I personally wouldn't make her third ability about drawing cards, or it would be too much like Ob Nixilis' (which is arguably OP anyway), but it does seem to need something to have more of an oomph. I feel that simply destroying the energised gems (prioritizing opponent's colour) instead of just consuming their energy could be enough of an improvement (by virtue of the potential to cause cascades and hence cast more cards) to make her competitive with the other new PW. And perhaps make it a little cheaper in terms of loyalty, given how it keeps costing energy to run?

GrizzoMtGPQ

I don't understand why these newer walkers are bi color in mana gain yet remain single color walkers. The reason I wanted her R/B was not to try to maintain the ties to TCG but rather to make her compelling. I've seen how awesome R/B can be in Sarkan but his abilities are too dumb to warrant using him. I want to use C2 and have her be compelling. Like Ob is compelling.

wereotter

Dologan wrote:

That said, I agree that tweaks to her abilities seem be needed to make her at least tempting to use, let alone buy. I personally wouldn't make her third ability about drawing cards, or it would be too much like Ob Nixilis' (which is arguably OP anyway), but it does seem to need something to have more of an oomph. I feel that simply destroying the energised gems (prioritizing opponent's colour) instead of just consuming their energy could be enough of an improvement (by virtue of the potential to cause cascades and hence cast more cards) to make her competitive with the other new PW. And perhaps make it a little cheaper in terms of loyalty, given how it keeps costing energy to run?

Only problem I'm having there, and I did pick her up, is red is pretty weak at energizing the board, even with her abilities. They're too over costed to feed into each other like Jace 2 and Sorin do, so unless you're one of the lucky 35 people to get a free Dynavolt Tower, you'll still run into the issue where you built up 24 loyalty for her support, then there's no energy on the board, so it does literally nothing.

For it's cost it should just benefit you regardless of if there energy on the board or not.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Agreed. I'm also having a lot of trouble getting energy on the board. Best I could do was Electrostatic Pummeler (+3) and Aethertorch Renegade (+3). Neither of them add energy continuously so you're forced to reinforce these over and over and hope you can get 9 loyalty. Forget trying to use Lathnu Hellion since he eats up all the energy on the board. If she had a 6 loyalty cost for #1 it would be a lot easier.

Volrak

Yvendros wrote:

agree. her ultimate is more expensive and is strictly worse than Ob's ult. doesn't make sense.

It's worth remembering that Ob's mana gains (net +5) are much worse than Chandra2's (net +9). So I think it makes perfect sense that some aspect of Chandra2 should be worse than Ob. (Of course, that doesn't necessarily make her a balanced/compelling PW to use.)

obsidianpeanut

I follow what you were trying to do, however, another dual color planeswalker in Red would be overkill. Ajani (R/W), Nahiri (R/W), Sarkhan (R/Bk), Arlinn (R/G), Shaheeli (R/B). If we have ~20 planeswalkers, then approximately 25% of the planeswalkers are partially invested in Red, if you count the pure Reds (Koth and 2xChandra) that is ~40%. How about Black/Green or Black/Blue?

Magog

obsidianpeanut wrote:

I follow what you were trying to do, however, another dual color planeswalker in Red would be overkill. Ajani (R/W), Nahiri (R/W), Sarkhan (R/Bk), Arlinn (R/G), Shaheeli (R/B). If we have ~20 planeswalkers, then approximately 25% of the planeswalkers are partially invested in Red, if you count the pure Reds (Koth and 2xChandra) that is ~40%. How about Black/Green or Black/Blue?

This is true, although I can't really see Chandra being non-Red.

I wonder though, does it point to a deeper issue or weakness with Red cards in general, since it's being paired up so often with other colours? Granted, Red does have some lovely cards (Olivia comes to mind, and Demolish is amazingly cheap), but still...

GrizzoMtGPQ

I'm sick of Red. Let's have a G/W or real U/B.

wereotter

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

I'm sick of Red. Let's have a G/W or real U/B.

We'll get those once Aether Revolt launches, I'd assume. They're following the paper release cycle, and there's Ajani and Tezzeret in the upcoming set.

madwren

Energize would be effective if it were an "X per turn" effect instead of an ETB effect. As it is, the energy just gets matched away ineffectually before she can actually do anything with it, and you're left with suboptimal creatures. C2 cannot cast enough cards, fast enough, to establish any sort of energy advantage that enables her to leverage it for her loyalty abilities.

The result is that you're using inefficient creatures for effects you barely get to utilize. There are better creatures at all price points--and this isn't just comparing Voltaic Brawlers to Castigators, or Whirler Virtuosos to Bandits. It's also that you're better using a Volcanic Rambler or Reckless Bushwhacker or Village Messenger and focusing on red/black mana matches, instead of going after that 3-blue because it has one of your two energized gems remaining on the board so you can ping your opponent for 3 damage (Aethertorch Renegade), or give a creature +1/+1 (Voltaic Brawler.)

Simply, by the time you hit 24 loyalty, your opponent should be dead already, and energize actively works against that.

SpaceDuck

wereotter wrote:

GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:

I'm sick of Red. Let's have a G/W or real U/B.

We'll get those once Aether Revolt launches, I'd assume. They're following the paper release cycle, and there's Ajani and Tezzeret in the upcoming set.

I think you're right about the timetable and I can't wait. Ajani 2.0 has the potential to be S Tier just by merit of G/W. As long as his mana bonus is better than standard +5 his abilities could all energize fabricated vehicles and it wouldn't matter.

wereotter

Been putting some thought into this and I think this might be a better solution for Chandra:

First ability:
level 1: gain 3 mana and energize 1 gem
level 2: gain 4 mana and energize 2 gems
level 3: gain 5 mana and energize 3 gems
level 4: gain 6 mana and energize 4 gems

Second ability:
level 1: deal damage to target creature equal to the number of energized gems
level 2: deal damage to target creature equal to twice the number of energized gems
level 3: deal damage to target creature equal to triple the number of energized gems
level 4: deal damage to target creature equal to quadruple the number of energized gems

Third ability:
level 1: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 5 damage to your opponent"
level 2: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 6 damage to your opponent"
level 3: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 7 damage to your opponent"
level 4: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 8 damage to your opponent"

My thought on this is it still makes her care about energy, but unlike currently her first ability won't inadvertently destroy energized gems without triggering overload. I realize that the game prefers to let red destroy gems to ramp, but even the physical Chandra is an oddity in that she creates mana, so letting this version create mana is still in keeping with her physical card.

Her second ability now cares even more about energy, but doesn't remove energy to work, so you still have it accessible in order to trigger overload. It means that to get the same effect at level 60 as you do currently, you must have at least 4 energized gems on the board, and plays into her first ability which generates energy. It will also scale well the longer the game goes on. If there's a large, reinforced threat on the board, the more energy you can produce, the more easily you can destroy it.

Her third ability gives her longevity once Kaladesh isn't a thing anymore and will allow more flexible builds. This is in comparison to the Innistrad versions of Jace and Liliana since zombies and card draw will always be a thing.

madwren

wereotter wrote:

Been putting some thought into this and I think this might be a better solution for Chandra:

First ability:
level 1: gain 3 mana and energize 1 gem
level 2: gain 4 mana and energize 2 gems
level 3: gain 5 mana and energize 3 gems
level 4: gain 6 mana and energize 4 gems

Second ability:
level 1: deal damage to target creature equal to the number of energized gems
level 2: deal damage to target creature equal to twice the number of energized gems
level 3: deal damage to target creature equal to triple the number of energized gems
level 4: deal damage to target creature equal to quadruple the number of energized gems

Third ability:
level 1: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 5 damage to your opponent"
level 2: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 6 damage to your opponent"
level 3: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 7 damage to your opponent"
level 4: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 8 damage to your opponent"

I like the first two. I was extremely disappointed when her first ability didn't generate mana like the paper version does.

The third ability seems a bit too powerful. Ob's is obviously strong, but is mitigated by the fact that only BTB lets you draw a full set of cards for bulk damage. Casting 5 cards a turn would seem easier than drawing 5 cards a turn.

wereotter

madwren wrote:

wereotter wrote:

Been putting some thought into this and I think this might be a better solution for Chandra:

First ability:
level 1: gain 3 mana and energize 1 gem
level 2: gain 4 mana and energize 2 gems
level 3: gain 5 mana and energize 3 gems
level 4: gain 6 mana and energize 4 gems

Second ability:
level 1: deal damage to target creature equal to the number of energized gems
level 2: deal damage to target creature equal to twice the number of energized gems
level 3: deal damage to target creature equal to triple the number of energized gems
level 4: deal damage to target creature equal to quadruple the number of energized gems

Third ability:
level 1: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 5 damage to your opponent"
level 2: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 6 damage to your opponent"
level 3: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 7 damage to your opponent"
level 4: create a support with "when you cast a card, deal 8 damage to your opponent"

I like the first two. I was extremely disappointed when her first ability didn't generate mana like the paper version does.

The third ability seems a bit too powerful. Ob's is obviously strong, but is mitigated by the fact that only BTB lets you draw a full set of cards for bulk damage. Casting 5 cards a turn would seem easier than drawing 5 cards a turn.

True. This is currently identical to her existing ability minus removing an energy when you cast a spell. I suppose it could be brought down in damage if you're not removing energy, or limited to specific card types, like only for spells.

Though I will also say once you've got the support from Jace or Liliana it's basically game over. Your creatures become absolutely enormous with Jace, and Prized Amalgam becomes immortal and continually gains you more zombie tokens with Liliana. Even Dovin will close out the game in a turn or two once you have his last support. So letting Chandra do the same is in keeping with the others.

Norksman

madwren wrote:

Ob's is obviously strong, but is mitigated by the fact that only BTB lets you draw a full set of cards for bulk damage.

FWIW Lost Legacy does the same, just to your opponent, but obviously Ob doesn't care if it's you or your opponent drawing cards.

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread, C2 is super weak and something needs to happen with her. I don't like the 'gain mana and energize' as Dovin already has this exact effect.

I don't mind the other two, I don't think the L3 is too OP.

wereotter

Norksman wrote:

madwren wrote:

Ob's is obviously strong, but is mitigated by the fact that only BTB lets you draw a full set of cards for bulk damage.

FWIW Lost Legacy does the same, just to your opponent, but obviously Ob doesn't care if it's you or your opponent drawing cards.

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread, C2 is super weak and something needs to happen with her. I don't like the 'gain mana and energize' as Dovin already has this exact effect.

I don't mind the other two, I don't think the L3 is too OP.

True. I forgot about that. My other thought going off her abilities was not as finalized but something like:

Level 1: energize 1 gem
Level 2: draw a card and energize 2 gems
Level 3: draw a card and energize 3 gems
Level 4: draw 2 cards and energize 4 gems

A good red deck burns through cards and her physical card can get you an extra one per turn.

mmraie

Norksman wrote:

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread, C2 is super weak and something needs to happen with her. I don't like the 'gain mana and energize' as Dovin already has this exact effect.

Sarkhan and ob have the same first skill and nobody ever batted an eye. Make her first like dovin so its at least usable. Or cut its cost in half.

Ohboy

mmraie wrote:

Norksman wrote:

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread, C2 is super weak and something needs to happen with her. I don't like the 'gain mana and energize' as Dovin already has this exact effect.

Sarkhan and ob have the same first skill and nobody ever batted an eye. Make her first like dovin so its at least usable. Or cut its cost in half.

Actually its worse than that. Sarkan's skill is 50% weaker and people were begging for him to be made available.

Comparing skill power is meaningless.