Why are people struggling?

firethorne

As someone just trying to get into the 4* game, difficulty had changed from a straight line increase to a steep parabolic climb. The low end is better. I think people who were never hitting 1k are hitting the 575 point cp mark. The game up to that mark seems more vibrant.

The game beyond 575, however seems worse. I've gotten hit more trying to make hops and seen fewer targets around my level. Having to be out in the open for longer with harder matches is part of it. I think that is partly due to no cupcakes. But, it is also due to people sick of the whole shield hop scene, losing points despite winning, etc. The 575 gives them a clear point where they can say, "Eh, that's good enough." They can get there without buying shields. They don't feel like they have to go higher, when in the past, the only way to make progress in the game was to go higher. We weren't ever in contention for placement awards and still wouldn't be with 5* teams tearing us to shreds.

The flaws with PvP are really apparent above 600, and the new reward structure gives transitioning players a logical stopping point where we say it isn't worth going higher. This in turn makes the climb above worse, and more appealing to not do it. The system collapses into itself.


Prev season:
Average score: 1000 to 1300 if I it was a 4* I was interested in. 500 if not.
Roster type - Early 4* transition (Two 4* champs, all 3* champed)
Cupcakes - If I saw them. Wasn't on Line coordinating to find them.
Climb type: early/late - mix
Common opponent level: 3* and 4* camps all the way up.
Target rich? No.

This season:
Average score: Whatever I get knocked down to after getting to 575.
Roster type' Early 4* transition (Two 4* champs, all 3* champed)
Cupcakes: no
Climb type: early
Common opponent level: 3* and 4* camps, to 600. 4* and fair covered 5* above.
Target rich? Below 600, yes. Above, no.

Xenoberyll

Previous
Average score - 1450 points per PvP
Roster type - one 5star and champed 4stars
Cupcakes - Ate a few
Climb type early/late - late
Common opponent level - 4-5star mix
Target rich? Enough to get what i needed


This season:
Average score - 1325 points per PvP
Roster type - same
Cupcakes - No
Climb type early/late - late
Common opponent level - same
Target rich? no change

[/quote]

fight4thedream

Prev season:
Average score - don't really remember, my score tends to bounce around lol
Roster type - 5*
Cupcakes - Depends on the situation
Climb type early/late - sometimes early, sometimes late
Common opponent level - 5*
Target rich? No - I'm pretty sure I know most of the rosters running a 5* in my slice (although there is a surprise every now and then)


This season:
Average score - about 1,592 give or take a hundred here or there
Roster type - 5*
Cupcakes - Depends on the situation
Climb type early/late - was experimenting a bit so early
Common opponent level - 5*
Target rich? About the same? Maybe less lower rosters after breaking 1k?

In general, my gameplay experience has improved. I place higher and get better rewards. My only gripe is that MMR is sometimes funky and won't let me queue stronger rosters but I understand why. Overall I find the experience more exciting ﾞ☆⌒o(*^ｰﾟ)v

adamdivine

Prev season:
Average score - 1500 points per PvP
Roster type - early to mid 4* transition (3 champed 4s)
Cupcakes - Yes
Climb type early/late - mix
Common opponent level - Champed 3s, champed 4s
Target rich? Enough that I didn't have to double anyone. Could climb to first shield around 1k without hitting cakes, but with coordination


This season:
Average score - 800 points per PvP
Roster type - early to mid 4* transition (3 champed 4s)
Cupcakes - No
Climb type early/late - mix
Common opponent level - After 700 all full of 4s champs
Target rich? Before 700 yes, after 700 only difficult fights for 30-39 points mostly.
Hops over 900 are doomed to be negative, or worth 40ish points.

Hate the new system. Plenty of people in the same boat as me. Relatively easy to get 700, then q's immediately dry up. Doesn't matter if it's early or late climb. Slice doesn't seem to matter either. Above 700, only difficult or impossible teams that are barely worth 38 (breakeven). Even with coordination, can't q team mates that are in my bracket with similar scores and similar rosters. Went from my favorite part of the game to my least favorite. I don't even care so much about missing the full progression, but 900 should be doable every time with my roster. All 2's and 3's champed, all 4's moderately to well covered and 3 4* champs.

OneLastGambit

cyineedsn wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

I should add that during fist bump I did get to 1120 but work comittments prevented me from hitting 1200 but I did have 3 matches queue for 50 points each so hitting 1200 is doable for me.

In previous season hitting max progression was a pipe dream.

Nitpicking, but this isn't the same as hitting 1200, we have no way to know if you would have been attacked while fighting those 3 matches.

Further edit: i rarely get hit in this new mmr. During first zero hits and zero shields. During the others I had 1 or 2 hits at most. I feel confident saying I would have made 1200 but as you say that is conjecture rater than fact

jobob

Prev season:
Average score - ~1600 per PVP
Roster type - 5* (10 champed lvl 455 - 485)
Cupcakes - Zero
Climb type early/late - mostly late
Common opponent level - Multiple Champ 5*'s, almost exclusively snipers
Target rich? Not really, except when snipers were out


This season:
Average score - ~2100 per PVP
Roster type - 5* (10 champed lvl 458 - 490)
Cupcakes - Yes (both baking and eating)
Climb type early/late - mid-late
Common opponent level - Multiple Champ 5*s, snipers early, cakes late, 1* - 2* rosters at the end
Target rich? A little less so up to ~1200, then it's exclusively cakes, until MMR breaks and I can see everyone from 1* on up.

BigBZ32

Prev season:
Average score - 1400-1600
Roster type - lvl 435 5*, a few at lvl 360, all the good 4* champed
Cupcakes - occasionally
Climb type early/late - late
Common opponent level - champed 4* and level 400 5*
Target rich? Yes


This season:
Average score - 1200-1300
Roster type - champed 5* and lvl 435 5*
Cupcakes - No
Climb type early/late - late
Common opponent level - champed 5*
Target rich? Changed slice and there was enough

I held off leveling my 5* before the season. For the first event, I stayed in my normal slice and brought one of my 5* to lvl 435. I used dual lvl 435 5*'s. Had no trouble hitting max progression, but wasn't as high above progression as I normally was and ranked in the 20's which was WAY better than I had ever ranked in that slice. Decided to change slices rest of the season and had no trouble hitting progression and ranked top 10 every event. I also lucked out and I was able to champ PHX. The changes forced me to bring my 5* up and I benefited from everyone else misery. My alliance placed 30-40 ranks better than we ever have in previous seasons as well. I also had my first top 50 for season.

simonsez

Astralgazer wrote:

Can we move on???

This **** about how great PVP before or after cupmageddon has gotten stale.

This isn't a **** thread, so stop your ****...

SnowcaTT

Prev season:
Average score - 1200 points per PvP (progression 2/3rd's of the time)
Roster type - One max 5*, many champed 4*'s as 2nd best option.
Cupcakes - Yes
Climb type early/late - Late, willing to shield twice.
Common opponent level - 2x 375 at best, champed 5* + boosted 4* very common.
Target rich? Yes (with Line)
RANKING: T100 with 1300 if lucky! (slice 4)

This season:
Average score - 1200 points per PvP (progression every time)
Roster type - One max 5*, many champed 4*'s as 2nd best option.
Cupcakes - Yes, if you can call them that still.
Climb type early/late - Late, willing to shield twice.
Common opponent level - 2x 375 at best, champed 5* + boosted 4* very common.
Target rich? Yes (with Line)
RANKING: T25 to T50!

I haven't found it much harder, still work with players to not hit specific folks and have them not hit me as I climb. Had/Have a hard time hitting progression in one-go, but it can be done.

BUT: note the category I added - ranking. All the sudden the 3*/4* transitioners can't crowd me out into the T100, I'm actually placing where my roster "should" be. Another category I didn't add is points past progression - before it wasn't terribly difficult, now to get to 1300 is almost a one-match hop proposition for me: that's just to many points out there for others to pass up.

TxMoose

aesthetocyst wrote:

TL;DR - yes losses reduced but human psychology doesnt care. smaller negative still negative.

i'll admit. losing 36 instead of 39, or 21 instead of 22 doesn't move the needle much for me. for something meaningful it needs to at least accumulate to a decent match-worth of points over an event. anything less is pretty trivial.

GrumpySmurf1002

Prev season:
Average score - 1606.2. (1739.9 before that)
Roster type - 375 OML, 15 champed 4*'s
Cupcakes - Bake and Devour
Climb type early/late - 8-24 hours left
Common opponent level - 5 + boosted 4, 2xboosted 4.
Target rich? Yes
RANKING: T25 per event, T50 season
Spend: 675HP net, 375 net incl. Sim + Season. Previous 2200, 2050net

This season:
Average score - 1325 (progression every time)
Roster type - Same
Cupcakes - Yes, if you can call them that still.
Climb type early/late - 24-36 hours left
Common opponent level - Same
Target rich? No
RANKING: T5-T10. (split between CL6 and CL7), T5 season
Spend: 1875HP net, 1650 net incl. Sim + Season

I'm one of those presumably most angry with the change. The biggest impact was in net spend. In 4 events I spent nearly what I did in Season 30, and 3x as much as I did in Season 31. The major reason is I went from nearly flawless hops prior, to repeated negative hops this season.

It just wasn't fun, struggling to find targets worth points, and then not being able to hit them without getting smashed back, even climbing earlier and away from the masses. I did it once, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna keep dropping HP like that over a 10 event season.

I'm hoping dumping my 1k+ CP will get me the 5* to mitigate some of the damage here, but this was the worst season fun-wise since the big MMR change. As I said before, had that one not been adjusted, I'd have probably quit.

carrion_pigeons

Last Season: Didn't play.

This season: played 1 match, in the first event of the season.

Seems a lot better to me! My score is literally infinitely many times higher.

Seriously, though, if the game experience is worse now than before, at least now there's room to make adjustments to make the game less of a slog without having as much risk of bakers completely warping the competitive environment. I don't think the system should stay like it is now, but I don't think that's a reason why they should have kept it the way it was.

elvy75

Previous season:
Average score - 1500 min points per PvP
Roster type - One champ 5*, many champed 4*
Cupcakes - Yes, after 1300 mostly
Climb type early/late - Combination
Common opponent level - 1 champ 5*+champ 4* as minimum, mostly two champ 2*
Target rich? Yes
RANKING: T10 in slices 1 and 5, t50 in slice 4

This season:
Average score - 1300 points per PvP
Roster type - Last one had second maxed 5*, rest as previous season
Cupcakes - are you really calling those things cc
Climb type early/late - Late, didnt have time to play more
Common opponent level - same as previous, last one mostly just 2 champ 5*
Target rich? No
RANKING: T10

For me most of things didn't change drastically, but the biggest change is targets availability. While in previous season there were a lot of targets available, now there is way less. I never had to double tap anyone before, while now i am finding myself with all few same opponents, and even though i dont want to i am forced to double tap people.

Ramble2

I'll play in hope that the devs see this and realize that they have broken player experience.

Prev season:
Average score - 2k-3k (my previous 7 season scores were 22.5k, 20.9k, 20.7k, 24.1k, 28.0k, 24.5k, 25.3k)
Roster type - Champed 4*'s, no usable 5*
Cupcakes - Bake and Devour
Climb type early/late - climb early, bake lots, frontrun when I can
Common opponent level - 3* and 4* during climbs
Target rich? Yes
RANKING: T10-25 per event, T25-50 season
Spend: a bunch of HP. Often 2-3 shields per 8 hours.

This season:
Average score - 1299 (6393 season, individual scores of 1442, 1333, 1287, 1132)
Roster type - Same
Cupcakes - Yes, those 5* grills.
Climb type early/late - early
Common opponent level - Same
Target rich? Yes up to 900. Bone dry beyond 900.
Spend: Much less in shields, let almost every shield I use run it's full length before breaking.

I made max progression in 3 out of 4 events, and I think my experience sucked. Awful. Terrible.

Beyond 900 points, there were almost literally no targets. When 4Thor was boosted, I was beating the 5* grills with no real problem, so at least I could get a 75 point queue here and there to get to 1.2k. I was forced to hit one target per hop, because any more than that and the zombies scratching and clawing to reach 900 would devour me and I would have a neutral (at best) hop. I don't blame them, they are just playing the awful game that they devs have built for them.

The Cage Match event was a different sort of beast, for me. I got to 900 just fine using my champ Quake and XFDP. It turns out that blowing up Countdown for What? tiles with Quake blue is good fun. Beyond 900, I never saw a 5* grill. I rarely saw a queue worth more than 15-20 points. I wasted THOUSANDS (THOUSANDS!!!!) of Iso trying to find any sort of viable target to hop against. In the end I had to hop for 30-50 points at a time, and only because I was queuing teammates who were lower than me and then waiting for them to pass me in score. Once they were above me, I never saw them again.

I think it's nice that people who never tried to be competitive in PVP are happy with the system. They seem to like the 10 CPs at 575 points, and the 4* cover at 900, because they never really tried to get the cover or CP in the past. I get that. I'm sympathetic to that. But appeasing them only required a change to the rewards system, it didn't require a change to the defensive system.

I'm at a point in the game where I can only progress at the mercy of the random number generator. I have an unleveled 11 cover Silver Surfer, and then a slew of useless 5* with 3-6 covers. Now I feel like D3 is locking me out from a good portion of my available CPs, giving me less of a chance to ever get those 5* covers. It feels like the game has gone from Pay to Win to Pay to Play. Not fun. Not fun, at all.

morph3us

Prev season:
Average score - 1600
Roster type - 435 OML/Phx, 420 SS
Cupcakes - Baker, occasional frontrunner
Climb type early/late - Early
Common opponent level - 2x champed 5*s, occasional a 5* and 4*
Target rich? Not until breaking MMR
RANKING: T5-10 per event, T100 season
Spend: 1000+HP per event, because of baking/frontrunning for others

This season:
Average score - 1300
Roster type - Same
Cupcakes - Occasionally baking, occasional cake, but mostly climbing off A-teams
Climb type early/late - Last 8 hours
Common opponent level - Same
Target rich? Good enough
RANKING: T5-T25
Spend: 150-225HP per event. No point spending more, baking only helps out people who already have 5*s now.

It's actually easier for me now. I first shield at 1200+. Sometimes, I'll leave it there, sometimes I'll hop once more if people need a queue. No point hopping too much beyond 1200 now, I'm only providing queues for high end rosters who don't need the points (and often have passed way beyond 1200 anyway, so my queue is no value to them).

I'm enjoying it less though. Part of the fun for PvP for me was feeling like I was helping other people out.

I'm climbing later than last season, since the shards are so dry early on now.

Spiritclaw

A change in average scores is a possible issue, but placement isn't really. It's not people struggling so much as the status quo changing. I expect the same number of people are finishing top 10 now as before the change -- 10 per bracket. Jostling the matchmaking makes it easier for some and harder for others, but by definition the placement side of things balances out.

OneLastGambit

It's interesting reading the responses (thanks guys)

I was expecting to see that people reliant on cupcakes before were the strugglers now (there is still a correlation showing this ).

However the stronger correlation is with the level of roster. It seems the people struggling are those with 3* rosters.

For those of us who are early to mid 4* transition and above are finding it easier, with more targets and lower progression.

From my experience I get a much bigger variety of targets, this is probably due (in equal parts) to the new defensive system forcing wacky teams out there and also the mmr seems to match me a little better at certain levels. Anecdotally this thread has confirmed what I thought about mmr...

0-650 = teams are largely 3* and below
651-850 = teams are largely 4* with a champ or 2
851+ = seems to be the higher tier with mutiple champed 4* and the occasional 5*


Is there a 5* player who can give a comparison ?

morph3us

OneLastGambit wrote:

It's interesting reading the responses (thanks guys)

I was expecting to see that people reliant on cupcakes before were the strugglers now (there is still a correlation showing this ).

However the stronger correlation is with the level of roster. It seems the people struggling are those with 3* rosters.

For those of us who are early to mid 4* transition and above are finding it easier, with more targets and lower progression.

From my experience I get a much bigger variety of targets, this is probably due (in equal parts) to the new defensive system forcing wacky teams out there and also the mmr seems to match me a little better at certain levels. Anecdotally this thread has confirmed what I thought about mmr...

0-650 = teams are largely 3* and below
651-850 = teams are largely 4* with a champ or 2
851+ = seems to be the higher tier with mutiple champed 4* and the occasional 5*


Is there a 5* player who can give a comparison ?

5* MMR -

0 - to infinity and beyond = teams with 5*s, plus an occasional champed 4*. Often times, the same 10 people, over and over again. At least until you break MMR, then it's random 2* to 4* rosters, worth hardly any points. Or it's hopping 4* teams trying to hit 1200, which a 5* roster is simply going to murder, multiple times.

I think it's reasonably clear now that there are two groups that are struggling.

The 3* rosters aiming for 900 are struggling.

The 4* rosters aiming for 1200 are struggling.

The consensus seems to be that if you're aiming for 575 for the 10CP as a 3* player, you're happier with the changes, since the target is low, and the environment is target rich with high value matches. If you're aiming for 900 for the 4* cover as a 3* player, you're unhappy with the changes, since it's a difficult target to hit.

If you're aiming for 900 for the 4* cover as a 4* player, you're happy with the changes, since the target is lower, and the environment is reasonably target rich as well. In fact, you may very well be happier - 10CP at 575, plus a lower progression for the 4* cover. If you're aiming for 1200 as a 4* player, you're unhappy with the changes, since it seems that the majority of your cohort of 4* players whom you can reasonably beat, are stopping at 900, which means you don't have any high value matches above 900, making 1200 a very expensive, very risky proposition. You're pretty much a walking cupcake, trying to hop to 1200 with a 4* team nowadays.

If we look at that in total, I think things are okay for the 3* player transitioning to 4*s, because they're guaranteed a random 4* cover every two events, for very little effort, and that does constitute progression. On the other hand, I think things are terrible for the 4* player trying to transition to 5*s, because their effective rate of attempted 5* pulls has been dropped by over 50%. That, in combination with ongoing dilution of the 5* classic LT pool is going to make it harder and harder to move from 4* to 5* land.

Ramble2

morph3us wrote:

5* MMR -

0 - to infinity and beyond = teams with 5*s, plus an occasional champed 4*. Often times, the same 10 people, over and over again. At least until you break MMR, then it's random 2* to 4* rosters, worth hardly any points. Or it's hopping 4* teams trying to hit 1200, which a 5* roster is simply going to murder, multiple times.

I think they are trying to solve 5* queue hell by trying to force players to level their 6+ cover 5*'s before their roster is truly ready to handle it.

dan54321

Prev season:
Average score - 2000 points per PvP
Roster type - 4*
Cupcakes - Yes, both baking and eating
Climb type early/late - early
Common opponent level - varied greatly, from unchamped 3* teams to champed 5 teams
Target rich? Extremely target rich, with a wide variety of roster strengths all the way to 1000 points, worth high points


This season:
Average score - 900-1300 points per PvP
Roster type - 4*
Cupcakes - If you can call them that, some baking and eating cc when 4* Thor was boosted
Climb type early/late - early
Common opponent level - Champed 4* Champed 5*
Target rich? Much less variety of rosters and the same 4 teams in my queues, worth 30 points, after I hit 700

I hit over 1200 points in all but one event, but that was only because my 4* Thor was boosted, and it was a ton of work and unpleasantness to get that high, involving many shields and terrifying battles with 5* cupcakes. I now see far fewer 3* teams on my climbs, and they are generally stronger 3* teams than before, mostly with champed 3*. Unchamped 3* teams tend to disappear much sooner in my climb than before -- a few fights and that's it, I don't see them anymore. Before, I could climb on them to 800 or 900 points or higher.

After I'm about 250 points high or so, I see a mix of 3* and 4*, usually champed and boosted. At 600 it's just boosted and champed 4*, sometimes with an accelerator like Scarlet Witch or IM40 thrown in. I also start to see 5*. At 700 and above, I only see the same 4 or 5 teams in my queues, and they're champed 4* and 5* teams with maybe a 3* accelerator at times. They're only worth 30 points or so, and they're almost all tough fights. It's like the last 150 points in Sim, except it continues for 600 points until 1200.

It's a much less diverse group of rosters I'm seeing, far more boosted characters than before, and a consistent climb to 1200 seems very unlikely now without spending lots on shields and getting lucky with a strong boosted 4* for that event, one that can take down the mutated 5* cupcakes that are now baked. Overall it's a much more tedious, difficult, and boring slog. With a boosted 4* I think hitting 1200 should be a manageable goal, because those 15cp are needed to transition to 5* land. But hitting 1200 right now is anything but easy. You get to 900 and just see 30 point matches. If you do a shield hop, and miraculously manage to hit 3 teams without getting hit before shielding, you can get to 1200 after 4 shields. But honestly you probably need to limit yourself to 2 match hops, so we're talking 5 shields just to get from 900 to 1200. I'm not sure it's worth the effort, and I may become one of the many people in my alliance to go casual as a result and just quit at 900... or less.

It's not just that climbing is harder, though, but that it's more boring. Just not the same diversity of opponents or manageability of opponent strength. That makes me want to quit the game altogether, frankly.

The social aspect of the game on LINE that revolved around baking cupcakes and shield hopping is massively down, too. The game is far less engaging than it was. It's really sad how these changes killed off a vibrant social scene and an aspect of the game that kept many people playing it.

Oh, and by the way, my placement hasn't been affected too much by these changes. I usually got t25 before, I still did last season. Absurd to think that 900 points now gets you t25, but it does. However, it is far less fun than before.