You’re treating the symptoms, but ignoring the disease

GrumpySmurf1002

notamutant wrote:

Why should a 3 star roster be capable of 1.3k when I struggle with a championed 4 star roster to reach it?.

The better question is why are you struggling with a champed 4* roster to reach 1300?

Yes, as I said somewhere else, the 3* roster losing cakes is a killer. A champ 4* roster shouldn't have any issues pre or post cake world.

GrumpySmurf1002

Astralgazer wrote:

I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Of course they are!! A top 10 alliance has players who average a minimum of 20k a season. That requires lots of shielding if you're a 3* player. If you're spending that much money shielding, in most cases you're spending that kind of money improving your roster. That's pretty much irrelevant to the issue of benefiting by cupcakes.

That said, there's at least one in the T25 alliances (avg min. 16k per season) that uses a low covered 300 OML, champed Blade or SheHulk, and has literally nothing else above 2*. I've seen that player in the 2000+ range in some events. Further, there are 3* rosters using them to full advantage are scattered all over the T100, and sometimes below that.

Looking at T10 alliances isn't going to tell you anything. In a post-bake world nothing is going to change at that level, save for those who just quit because they're annoyed at the slog 5* MMR can be w/o them. They're not the ones punching above their weight.

westnyy2

I have no strong feelings in the cake or not to cake discussion. I agree that they infuse the shard with points making it easier to climb and reach all progressions. The major flaw I see in PVP is the late starting people who feast on 75 point matches until they are even and then bludgeon the weaker teams until they have a top 5 position. Admittedly, I am one of these people.

It makes no sense to me why I should start immediately and spend on shields to earn the same rewards I normally get on a 3 hour shield. Now while I do climb late and hit 75 pointers, there is always someone starting later and doing the same thing to me once I get to the 1k mark. I would like to see a system where points are capped at say 50 and you can only see players who are in that score range. At least there they are close to my score and I can choose to retaliate or not. Seeing a 1 point retaliation node really sucks and doesn't deter anyone from multi-tapping an opponent.

I will wait to hold judgment until I see how the new event works but I'm not a fan of how the defensive teams are going to be set in the new system from what I am seeing. I guess we will wait an see.

Vhailorx

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

notamutant wrote:

Why should a 3 star roster be capable of 1.3k when I struggle with a championed 4 star roster to reach it?.

The better question is why are you struggling with a champed 4* roster to reach 1300?

Yes, as I said somewhere else, the 3* roster losing cakes is a killer. A champ 4* roster shouldn't have any issues pre or post cake world.

1K is not a problem once you have a few good 4*s champed. There are several strong 3* battery/4* hitter combos (e.g. im40, if, switch) than reliably hit 1k on 0-1 shields even When unboosted.

But 1.3k is a different story. It is much harder to hit 1.3k reliably with unboosted 4*s and a reasonable amount Of effort (by which I mean 1-3 shields. More than that is too much of a pain in the **** to be worthwhile). Tuats not to say it can't be done. But who wants to make 4-6 shield hops for 50 points each spread out over 24 hours?

I think the only people who could always hit 1.3 in a no-baking world are those players with 435+ 5* teams. Or sufficiently deep 5* rosters that they can always field the best possible team of boosted 4*s.

Fightmastermpq

westnyy2 wrote:

I have no strong feelings in the cake or not to cake discussion. I agree that they infuse the shard with points making it easier to climb and reach all progressions. The major flaw I see in PVP is the late starting people who feast on 75 point matches until they are even and then bludgeon the weaker teams until they have a top 5 position. Admittedly, I am one of these people.

It makes no sense to me why I should start immediately and spend on shields to earn the same rewards I normally get on a 3 hour shield. Now while I do climb late and hit 75 pointers, there is always someone starting later and doing the same thing to me once I get to the 1k mark. I would like to see a system where points are capped at say 50 and you can only see players who are in that score range. At least there they are close to my score and I can choose to retaliate or not. Seeing a 1 point retaliation node really sucks and doesn't deter anyone from multi-tapping an opponent.

I will wait to hold judgment until I see how the new event works but I'm not a fan of how the defensive teams are going to be set in the new system from what I am seeing. I guess we will wait an see.

I'm even worse. I often join early, climb, but stay unshielded. I'm the turd in the punch bowl clogging all the 5* queues. I'll get beat back down and then just climb late 8h out and drop one shield til the end.

GrumpySmurf1002

Vhailorx wrote:

But 1.3k is a different story. It is much harder to hit 1.3k reliably with unboosted 4*s and a reasonable amount Of effort (by which I mean 1-3 shields. More than that is too much of a pain in the **** to be worthwhile). Thats not to say it can't be done. But who wants to make 4-6 shield hops for 50 points each spread out over 24 hours?

I think the only people who could always hit 1.3 in a no-baking world are those players with 435+ 5* teams. Or sufficiently deep 5* rosters that they can always field the best possible team of boosted 4*s.

Unboosted 4* to me is the same as a 3* roster. When someone says they have a champed 4* roster - I'm assuming they have the top guys and are running the boosted ones, with or without 5* support. Basically, similar in strength to my roster. Whether I'm shield checking or not, finding cakes or not, I often run up to 1300 before even considering shielding. Put another way, I scored just under 18k this season and I never did more than 2 hops in any event, most events was 0-1. You had boosted Carnage, RHulk, 4Cyc and TeenJean weeks in there this season, all of whom just chew through everything quickly.

Now granted, maybe point inflation via bakes will take a bigger toll on scoring than I'm expecting (mostly because I don't expect baking to be completely eliminated, it just might be a trivial 4* matchup like Elektra-Wasp instead of Stormneto). But the only time someone at the champed 4* level should struggle is when they go to S2, aka where scoring goes to die.

dsds

Fightmastermpq wrote:

westnyy2 wrote:

I have no strong feelings in the cake or not to cake discussion. I agree that they infuse the shard with points making it easier to climb and reach all progressions. The major flaw I see in PVP is the late starting people who feast on 75 point matches until they are even and then bludgeon the weaker teams until they have a top 5 position. Admittedly, I am one of these people.

It makes no sense to me why I should start immediately and spend on shields to earn the same rewards I normally get on a 3 hour shield. Now while I do climb late and hit 75 pointers, there is always someone starting later and doing the same thing to me once I get to the 1k mark. I would like to see a system where points are capped at say 50 and you can only see players who are in that score range. At least there they are close to my score and I can choose to retaliate or not. Seeing a 1 point retaliation node really sucks and doesn't deter anyone from multi-tapping an opponent.

I will wait to hold judgment until I see how the new event works but I'm not a fan of how the defensive teams are going to be set in the new system from what I am seeing. I guess we will wait an see.

I'm even worse. I often join early, climb, but stay unshielded. I'm the turd in the punch bowl clogging all the 5* queues. I'll get beat back down and then just climb late 8h out and drop one shield til the end.

I've seen you on top ten before. You were one of the few that weren't shielded. But for some reason you didn't clog my queue. I saw your roster, it would have definitely been a skip for me.

Pylgrim

notamutant wrote:

Why should a 3 star roster be capable of 1.3k when I struggle with a championed 4 star roster to reach it?.

How can you not see that this is the reason why cupcakes were a good and, sadly if you want, necessary thing? 4* players /should/ be hitting the 1.3k reward. With an RNG-only based progression into 5*s, you need as many draws as possible from CP. Similarly, 3* players should be hitting the 1k rewards to progress into 4*. NONE of those things were happening naturally without cupcakes. Progression was stagnated for everybody except whales and the very lucky. Cupcakes allowed /anybody/ who wanted to bother to look into it the chance to progress, PLUS indirectly also helped everybody by injecting points into the shard and providing high-score targets with 3* and developing 4* rosters (as opposed to only full 4* and 5* ones) for climbers. If you thought it was very difficult for you to reach 1.3k in an environment rife with ccs and the comparatively easy players that fed on them past 1k... how do you think things will improve for you now that they are gone?

Yes, the ccs had the slight downside that it allowed /some/ 3* players to reach 1.3k and above. Sadly, that little fact rubbed so badly the sensibilities of people like you, that now the option has been removed from players who legitimately needed the help to reach their natural progression including you.

notamutant

Pylgrim wrote:

notamutant wrote:

Why should a 3 star roster be capable of 1.3k when I struggle with a championed 4 star roster to reach it?.

How can you not see that this is the reason why cupcakes were a good and, sadly if you want, necessary thing? 4* players /should/ be hitting the 1.3k reward. With an RNG-only based progression into 5*s, you need as many draws as possible from CP. Similarly, 3* players should be hitting the 1k rewards to progress into 4*. NONE of those things were happening naturally without cupcakes. Progression was stagnated for everybody except whales and the very lucky. Cupcakes allowed /anybody/ who wanted to bother to look into it the chance to progress, PLUS indirectly also helped everybody by injecting points into the shard and providing high-score targets with 3* and developing 4* rosters (as opposed to only full 4* and 5* ones) for climbers. If you thought it was very difficult for you to reach 1.3k in an environment rife with ccs and the comparatively easy players that fed on them past 1k... how do you think things will improve for you now that they are gone?

Yes, the ccs had the slight downside that it allowed /some/ 3* players to reach 1.3k and above. Sadly, that little fact rubbed so badly the sensibilities of people like you, that now the option has been removed from players who legitimately needed the help to reach their natural progression including you.

I am not talking about cupcakes on the forums anymore, because a majority of the forum users are biased and use cupcakes and get incredibly upset if anything negative is said about it. They can't accept the fact 99% of the player base does not use cupcakes. My perfectly clear and logical description of the problems and solutions was deleted as a personal attack by the mods. So this is the last time you will see me talk about cupcakes.

Electrovirus

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Astralgazer wrote:

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Kinda like those in Wallstreet who feel that they are entitled to game the system, even though they are whales already. But I digress.

There have been some threats that you all will go beserk on us, the 3* roster players who see cupcaking as unfair, fine. I will enter PVP at lower SCL, to fight for 2* rewards--because this is what I normally get from playing PVP without cupcakes. This is what my roster is good for, so I will just embrace it.

P.S. I did find someone in the top 10 alliance I mentioned above who has mostly 3* roster (and not very different from mine), except that he has IMHB and Iceman championed, and no other fully covered 4*. I can't believe his luck!

P.P.S. If you guys really want to game the new system, you can start coordinating OOG to climb to 1k using 3* roster, queue each other as before, shield, and in the last hour or so, start pounding each other with your strongest team. You need to be precise on timing though. It will be more complicated to coordinate, but I guess you are all accustomed to seeing PVP as Cooperative gameplay, anyway. Don't worry, you will find new exploits, you're whales after all.

It's obvious you don't really understand how PvP works, or why. First off, alliances make PvP a cooperative game mode. I know you like to look at the term "player versus player" and assume that any collusion among players is "cheating", but alliances reward players for working together to boost alliance scores, and individual rewards based on how well the group does as a whole. Stop complaining about people communicating with their friends outside the game as players working together is intended gameplay.

Secondly, whales don't need cupcakes. Most events I hit 1300 without shielding, without baking, and without hitting any cakes - and I'm not even really a true whale, I've just spent/played enough to have a champed OML/Phx. So even though I don't directly benefit from cakes, I recognize that the only reason I am able to queue 75 pt targets from 1200 is because others have baked their way to 2k+.

It's laughable that you think that T10 rosters lacking 3* players proves that 3* players don't benefit from cupcakes. Absurd. The fact that you have found even a single instance of a 3* player in a T10 (Top 200 player out of thousands) is proof that it works. I've seen guys with 3* rosters score over 2k. It's rare, but it happens. The other thing you obviously don't understand is that the score people finish with is not indicative of how much they have benefited from cupcakes. Why would a 3* player hit 1k in S4, and then spend even a drop of HP to preserve that score so they can finish T250? The benefit of cupcakes is seen through progression, not placement.

Your final comment really proves that you have no idea what PvP is like for top tier players. A 5* player cannot queue any 3* teams. None. Even if I start an event using a 3* team I'll never queue a similar team, and none of my 5* player friends will ever be able to find that 3* team that I put out - at least not until they get over 800 pts (or as high as 1200 or even higher if it's later in the event.) But by then those 3* teams are rarely worth more than 10 pts.

It's amusing that you have so much contempt for players that have been supporting both your game financially, as well as your progression through the game through cupcakes (albeit indirectly clearly without you even understanding or believing that it is happening.) But now you've bit the hand that has fed you. It's a bold move, let's see how it plays out for you.

If you think for one minute that this is what the makers of the game intended by having alliances you are dillusional

puppychow

Warbringa wrote:

I would actually just love a "real" player vs. player portion of the game where you can actually play another human opponent....just for fun. I am not worried about rewards or rankings etc. with a feature like this. Once you introduce those factors into it, it will bust the fun of this feature. You would be able to use your roster in this mode but there would be no boosts and any damage you take doesn't impact health for traditional PvE and PvP rosters etc. It would add a unique element to the game and allow a chat/social aspect to the game that would help add and keep players. I know it would be a big resource expenditure for the devs but I think it would be worth it because it would be a totally new feature for this game...which the game could really use.

If you want a real pvp portion, go play Hearthstone instead. You'll be twiddling your thumbs waiting for your opponent to make a move. Or your opponent will quit in the middle of the game for no reason. I tried HS, and came back to MPQ instead.

Fightmastermpq

Electrovirus wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Astralgazer wrote:

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Kinda like those in Wallstreet who feel that they are entitled to game the system, even though they are whales already. But I digress.

There have been some threats that you all will go beserk on us, the 3* roster players who see cupcaking as unfair, fine. I will enter PVP at lower SCL, to fight for 2* rewards--because this is what I normally get from playing PVP without cupcakes. This is what my roster is good for, so I will just embrace it.

P.S. I did find someone in the top 10 alliance I mentioned above who has mostly 3* roster (and not very different from mine), except that he has IMHB and Iceman championed, and no other fully covered 4*. I can't believe his luck!

P.P.S. If you guys really want to game the new system, you can start coordinating OOG to climb to 1k using 3* roster, queue each other as before, shield, and in the last hour or so, start pounding each other with your strongest team. You need to be precise on timing though. It will be more complicated to coordinate, but I guess you are all accustomed to seeing PVP as Cooperative gameplay, anyway. Don't worry, you will find new exploits, you're whales after all.

It's obvious you don't really understand how PvP works, or why. First off, alliances make PvP a cooperative game mode. I know you like to look at the term "player versus player" and assume that any collusion among players is "cheating", but alliances reward players for working together to boost alliance scores, and individual rewards based on how well the group does as a whole. Stop complaining about people communicating with their friends outside the game as players working together is intended gameplay.

Secondly, whales don't need cupcakes. Most events I hit 1300 without shielding, without baking, and without hitting any cakes - and I'm not even really a true whale, I've just spent/played enough to have a champed OML/Phx. So even though I don't directly benefit from cakes, I recognize that the only reason I am able to queue 75 pt targets from 1200 is because others have baked their way to 2k+.

It's laughable that you think that T10 rosters lacking 3* players proves that 3* players don't benefit from cupcakes. Absurd. The fact that you have found even a single instance of a 3* player in a T10 (Top 200 player out of thousands) is proof that it works. I've seen guys with 3* rosters score over 2k. It's rare, but it happens. The other thing you obviously don't understand is that the score people finish with is not indicative of how much they have benefited from cupcakes. Why would a 3* player hit 1k in S4, and then spend even a drop of HP to preserve that score so they can finish T250? The benefit of cupcakes is seen through progression, not placement.

Your final comment really proves that you have no idea what PvP is like for top tier players. A 5* player cannot queue any 3* teams. None. Even if I start an event using a 3* team I'll never queue a similar team, and none of my 5* player friends will ever be able to find that 3* team that I put out - at least not until they get over 800 pts (or as high as 1200 or even higher if it's later in the event.) But by then those 3* teams are rarely worth more than 10 pts.

It's amusing that you have so much contempt for players that have been supporting both your game financially, as well as your progression through the game through cupcakes (albeit indirectly clearly without you even understanding or believing that it is happening.) But now you've bit the hand that has fed you. It's a bold move, let's see how it plays out for you.

If you think for one minute that this is what the makers of the game intended by having alliances you are dillusional

Are you suggesting that the devs are incompetent for not understanding the consequences of changes they make to game mechanics? For not understanding how players will use the mechanics that are given to them to optimize their output?

Electrovirus

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Electrovirus wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Astralgazer wrote:

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Kinda like those in Wallstreet who feel that they are entitled to game the system, even though they are whales already. But I digress.

There have been some threats that you all will go beserk on us, the 3* roster players who see cupcaking as unfair, fine. I will enter PVP at lower SCL, to fight for 2* rewards--because this is what I normally get from playing PVP without cupcakes. This is what my roster is good for, so I will just embrace it.

P.S. I did find someone in the top 10 alliance I mentioned above who has mostly 3* roster (and not very different from mine), except that he has IMHB and Iceman championed, and no other fully covered 4*. I can't believe his luck!

P.P.S. If you guys really want to game the new system, you can start coordinating OOG to climb to 1k using 3* roster, queue each other as before, shield, and in the last hour or so, start pounding each other with your strongest team. You need to be precise on timing though. It will be more complicated to coordinate, but I guess you are all accustomed to seeing PVP as Cooperative gameplay, anyway. Don't worry, you will find new exploits, you're whales after all.

It's obvious you don't really understand how PvP works, or why. First off, alliances make PvP a cooperative game mode. I know you like to look at the term "player versus player" and assume that any collusion among players is "cheating", but alliances reward players for working together to boost alliance scores, and individual rewards based on how well the group does as a whole. Stop complaining about people communicating with their friends outside the game as players working together is intended gameplay.

Secondly, whales don't need cupcakes. Most events I hit 1300 without shielding, without baking, and without hitting any cakes - and I'm not even really a true whale, I've just spent/played enough to have a champed OML/Phx. So even though I don't directly benefit from cakes, I recognize that the only reason I am able to queue 75 pt targets from 1200 is because others have baked their way to 2k+.

It's laughable that you think that T10 rosters lacking 3* players proves that 3* players don't benefit from cupcakes. Absurd. The fact that you have found even a single instance of a 3* player in a T10 (Top 200 player out of thousands) is proof that it works. I've seen guys with 3* rosters score over 2k. It's rare, but it happens. The other thing you obviously don't understand is that the score people finish with is not indicative of how much they have benefited from cupcakes. Why would a 3* player hit 1k in S4, and then spend even a drop of HP to preserve that score so they can finish T250? The benefit of cupcakes is seen through progression, not placement.

Your final comment really proves that you have no idea what PvP is like for top tier players. A 5* player cannot queue any 3* teams. None. Even if I start an event using a 3* team I'll never queue a similar team, and none of my 5* player friends will ever be able to find that 3* team that I put out - at least not until they get over 800 pts (or as high as 1200 or even higher if it's later in the event.) But by then those 3* teams are rarely worth more than 10 pts.

It's amusing that you have so much contempt for players that have been supporting both your game financially, as well as your progression through the game through cupcakes (albeit indirectly clearly without you even understanding or believing that it is happening.) But now you've bit the hand that has fed you. It's a bold move, let's see how it plays out for you.

If you think for one minute that this is what the makers of the game intended by having alliances you are dillusional

Are you suggesting that the devs are incompetent for not understanding the consequences of changes they make to game mechanics? For not understanding how players will use the mechanics that are given to them to optimize their output?

I wouldn't say incompetent, I would say that they hadn't thought through every scenario. They didn't foresee how players would take advantage of the mechanics in a way that was not the intent of the system. I think they underestimate the intelligence of the players. As soon as a change comes out their are people looking at every possible way to take advantage and exploit the situation.

dsds

Cupcakes aren't needed. The majority of players never hit that 1.3k progression goal even when cupcakes were present. The forum population is so small compared to the entire game population. I've seen 2 cupcakes the whole time I've been playing. I've practically played every pvp event. I've gone early, late, hit 1000 pts, etc. So cupcakes helped me a total of 0.001% of the time?

Most people don't even know how to use cupcakes to maximize the points. When I saw my 2 cupcakes, I didn't know that I can keep getting them again later on.

I for one like balance of power because we are all equal in terms of power. I guess the people who don't like it are used to bullying others with their advanced rosters and expecting no retaliations. Yes there are less points in the slices, but every off season event is like that. Is that symptom of balance of power, a symptom of an off season event or both?

GurlBYE

Progression just being changed to be more like boss fights (like hitting alliance goals, and being encouraged to fight in your weight class instead of high above) and not losing these points on being attacked would make ALL of the difference for helping people progress.

With all the 4's and 5's coming and the iso bottleneck, it's not like it'd change much.

Just make placements more lucrative (high iso amounts, legendaries, HP, maybe even a guaranteed 5 for 1st with lightning round sized brackets?)

mohio

aesthetocyst wrote:

Electrovirus wrote:

I wouldn't say incompetent, I would say that they hadn't thought through every scenario. They didn't foresee how players would take advantage of the mechanics in a way that was not the intent of the system. I think they underestimate the intelligence of the players. As soon as a change comes out their are people looking at every possible way to take advantage and exploit the situation.

It's not that they underestimate the intelligence of anyone. It's a classic software development conundrum ... attempting to anticipate all the use cases a large pool of users interacting with each other will come up with.

You do the best you can with what you have and are inevitably surprised by what develops.

I won't go all out and say they're incompetent either, but the forum community has only been saying for the past 2 years+ that pvp is all about speed and how fast your team can win a few fights and get back to being shielded. The cupcake "metagame" developed after D3 removed retreat boosting, which for those who weren't around, was far more problematic in terms of getting players rewards they "didn't deserve" (which is why the super whales complained to the devs and got them to remove it, but i digress). It took me maybe a whole 5 minutes to determine that the best way for those of us who were boosting our weaker alliance-mates up to progression totals, was instead to climb high and then put out a weaker team for them to queue and hit for big points. I didn't take it the next step further which of course is what developed, having everyone using these teams and then shielding so all would have quick hops for good points. Anyway, point is, after the announcement it was literally the first thing I thought of. Do you really think the devs didn't think this was a possibility, or maybe even an inevitability?

GrumpySmurf1002

mohio wrote:

Anyway, point is, after the announcement it was literally the first thing I thought of. Do you really think the devs didn't think this was a possibility, or maybe even an inevitability?

From the team that almost brought you Thor-Hood winfinite before the forum laughed and laughed at the idea?

Retreat boosting also popped up about 3 seconds after they changed the math on defensive losses, which they then scrambled to fix within 60 days.

So yeah, I think it's completely possible they missed it.

Reality is they don't have to test for everything, just announce the change here and this group will pick out the flaws in about 8.4 milliseconds, and almost always be correct.

dsds

aesthetocyst wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Reality is they don't have to test for everything, just announce the change here and this group will pick out the flaws in about 8.4 milliseconds, and almost always be correct.

Exactly this.

This is called leverage.



A slick dev would create dummy accounts on this forum, and use them to float ideas

Sometimes I wonder if some of the forum members are developers' anonymous accounts. Sometimes there's just too much enthusiasm in defending a broken game mechanic or an unpopular change.

firethorne

dsds wrote:

The majority of players never hit that 1.3k progression goal even when cupcakes were present.

Which, I think, was another contributing reason to why cupcakes came about. If you develop unattainable or unrealistic goals, people will get fed up when they can't be attained by "normal" play. The powderkeg of "You're supposed to lose," exploded and is still referenced to this day because it hit a bit too close to home. Some of the decisions make it seem like that is truly what they want the game to look like. So, when players start failing though normal channels, they feel compelled to use more unorthodox ways to progress.

Here, I think PvP is still lagging behind the recent PvE changes. They dropped 100 points off progression, but with it likely overall points will also be lower, that will probably end up being a wash.

amusingfoo1

simonsez wrote:

Astralgazer wrote:

If anything, BOP shows that even without cupcakes, the game is still enjoyable.

I can't accept any premise that uses "BOP" and "enjoyable" in the same sentence...

I agree. Of the 200-ish people in the rooms I frequent, I have only heard one or two people express enjoyment WRT BoP. I find it painful, myself.