You’re treating the symptoms, but ignoring the disease

Vhailorx

Demi doesn't have to "think" about how many people are reaching progression. They know exactly how many people do it in every event.

So if your hypothesis is correct, and demi would have lowered the 1.3k prize except that too many people were reaching it, doesn't that undercut your argument that baking depressed the number of people who could reach 1.3k?

Also, if demi is concerned that too many people were reaching 1.3k, shouldn't be expect that the new 1.2k threshold will be harder to reach than the old 1.3k?

I can see that there is a chicken/egg argument to be had over whether cupcakes inflate scoring which prevents the system from changing, or demi refuses to change the system which then creates a need for cupcaking. And I definitely agree that the significant gulf in outcomes between bakers on line and non-bakers is problematic for the overall game (it creates two tiers of roster progression speed rather than a smooth curve. And that made it harder for demi to keep everyone happy).

In the end, I guess I very much fall into the "PVP sucks without cupcaking and the marginal cost of line coordination is very low compared to the very onerous requirements of PVP play. So fix PVP and baking mostly solve itself" camp.

Pylgrim

notamutant wrote:

You, along with all the whiners in the other thread about the death of cupcakes, seem to not actually read or consider what was written by David. They did not ONLY say they will make cupcakes more difficult to create. They also said they will 1) lower progression requirements and 2) decrease point loss potential.

The thing is that we still don't know how many points were cupcakes injecting into a shard. My bet is somewhere between "a not insignificant amount" and "tons". You may say that without OOG you very rarely saw a cupcake, and that might be true. But unbeknownst to you, you may have seen dozens of people who saw a cupcake or at least someone else who did, causing the whole chain to gain more points. Moreover, because cupcakes allowed people with 3* or developing 4* rosters to climb to 1k and beyond, it meant that it was possible to find easy-ish-yet-not-cupcake targets with high value in what otherwise was dominated by champ-buffed 4*s and strong 5*s. That's something that neither of the measures you speak of entirely address. What good is to have lower progression rewards if by the point you are getting close to them you only find 20+ points fights and/or 5* opposing teams?

I'm also a proponent of waiting and seeing, but just letting you know that there are reasons why people are anxious.

richterbelmont10

Vhailorx wrote:

Who wants to schedule their life around shield cooldown timers? It sucks, I hate it, and demi should never have been allowed to put that **** in the game.

This.

notamutant

Vhailorx wrote:

Demi doesn't have to "think" about how many people are reaching progression. They know exactly how many people do it in every event.

So if your hypothesis is correct, and demi would have lowered the 1.3k prize except that too many people were reaching it, doesn't that undercut your argument that baking depressed the number of people who could reach 1.3k?

No, it doesn't weaken my argument, because my claim was not that baking depressed the number of people who could reach 1.3k. My claim has always been that it was too difficult to reach 1.3k without baking (new addition to that argument: outside of those with ridiculous 5 star rosters that scare everyone away that doesn't also have a 5 star roster). Too many people were reaching 1.3k that should not have reached it. Why should a 3 star roster be capable of 1.3k when I struggle with a championed 4 star roster to reach it? It is the exact same thing people were cheering about with clearance levels, that a noob shouldn't be competing for new 4 star characters that they don't need yet.

Vhailorx wrote:

Also, if demi is concerned that too many people were reaching 1.3k, shouldn't be expect that the new 1.2k threshold will be harder to reach than the old 1.3k?

Yes, we should, for the cupcakes. For the people that were actually supposed to be capable of reaching this and played normally, this should see little change in difficulty, and perhaps be even easier. We will have to see whether or not it was true that cupcakes added points to a slice that would not otherwise be there for non-cupcakers, at least to be significant enough to make a difference.

Omega Red

It's interesting how the risk mechanics are perceived as a problem when in fact they're the only thing that makes pvp exciting. Without the risk of losing your points pvp would be a dull affair and reaching progression rewards would simply require players to complete a fixed number of matches, like in MTGPQ.

Winning a 70 point match only to find out you were hit for a 150+ loss sucks. We all have been there and we all have cursed at this game for that. The bottom line is, we all have a floating point and the goal is to hit as high above that point as possible. It was great that we all benefitted from cupcakes allowing us to score a little higher than we should have but ultimately those scores were not an accurate reflection of our true place within the food chain.

Pylgrim

Omega Red wrote:

It's interesting how the risk mechanics are perceived as a problem when in fact they're the only thing that makes pvp exciting. Without the risk of losing your points pvp would be a dull affair and reaching progression rewards would simply require players to complete a fixed number of matches, like in MTGPQ.

Winning a 70 point match only to find out you were hit for a 150+ loss sucks. We all have been there and we all have cursed at this game for that. The bottom line is, we all have a floating point and the goal is to hit as high above that point as possible. It was great that we all benefitted from cupcakes allowing us to score a little higher than we should have but ultimately those scores were not an accurate reflection of our true place within the food chain.

If what I bolded were true, I wouldn't have any problem. There would be no problem at all, really. However, in my pre-cc experience, this is not the reality. Take the 4* cover at 1k. Who needs it the most? The player transitioning from 3* to 4* and who still needs lots of covers to max their first 4*, or the player with most 4*s championed and who's actually moving on to play with 5*s? The former, right? But with no ccs (or the points they donated to the shard), the former starts seeing mostly teams of the latter around 700-800 points that they cannot possibly defeat. So at the end of the event, the former didn't progress their roster at all, while the latter got another champion level for his 4*s, i.e. became even stronger.

That would be the true measure of the new PVP system working. 3*-4* players being able to reach that 4* cover progression reward without killing themselves. Current PVPs allows that for some (the ones who directly benefit from ccs, plus some who climb off them). The new system would have to allow for more people to be able to reach the goal in order to be a real improvement, which in my opinion seems dubious. But we shall wait and see.

Astralgazer

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Kinda like those in Wallstreet who feel that they are entitled to game the system, even though they are whales already. But I digress.

There have been some threats that you all will go beserk on us, the 3* roster players who see cupcaking as unfair, fine. I will enter PVP at lower SCL, to fight for 2* rewards--because this is what I normally get from playing PVP without cupcakes. This is what my roster is good for, so I will just embrace it.

P.S. I did find someone in the top 10 alliance I mentioned above who has mostly 3* roster (and not very different from mine), except that he has IMHB and Iceman championed, and no other fully covered 4*. I can't believe his luck!

P.P.S. If you guys really want to game the new system, you can start coordinating OOG to climb to 1k using 3* roster, queue each other as before, shield, and in the last hour or so, start pounding each other with your strongest team. You need to be precise on timing though. It will be more complicated to coordinate, but I guess you are all accustomed to seeing PVP as Cooperative gameplay, anyway. Don't worry, you will find new exploits, you're whales after all.

Electrovirus

Some ideas to eliminate cupcake teams:

Make it so you can't use the bottom half or 2/3 of your roster
Progressively higher minimum level for heroes - as you gain more points you can't use your low level heroes eg by 1,000 pts its basically champs only
lvl 6 or 7 ? you can only use champs or better
Flatten the reward structure - Top 50 get the same reward, 51-250 get the same reward etc.
Corellate the level of your opponent you are going to fight with the level of the heroes on their team. So 2 teams with the same amount of progression points will net you different points when you beat it. (eg you fight one of the top 10 teams - You get less points beating his cupcake team then if the guy exposes his 'A' team. Eliminates gaming the system)
Get rid of shields and balance it by only allowing matches vs teams closer to your rank.
Make AI better for cupcake teams so they are harder to beat. Cupcake teams match 5 more, don't match their good tiles away etc.
Make it slower fighting a cupcake team so matches take longer.

morph3us

Astralgazer wrote:

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

You seem to have a misconception that cupcakes help the big hitters. I'm a 5* player. I'm going to hit 1300 (or 1200) every single pvp, and I don't need cupcakes to do it. I'm also going to place higher than all of the rosters who actually need those 3* covers for placement, irrespective of cupcakes, because it's always going to be safer for me to do shield hops with a pair of 5*s.. My team is never going to be queuable by yours, because of mmr, so all of my points are going to be kept with the high hitters, which means progression is going to be harder for those rosters who actually need those 1k covers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not unsympathetic to your issues, I was a 3* player playing without cakes trying to transition too.

Alsmir

Cupcakes were ignored for way to long. Now we have a significant group of players who are convinced, that cheating not only is fine, but it's the part of the game.

OneLastGambit

We still don't know the reward structure for clearance levels in PvP yet so this may yet address the issue of "not enough points to reach the 4* cover"
Secondly I have hit the 1k cover numerous times in this season and it steadily increased from zero times 2 seasons ago to what I'm at now.

Twice in that time I found a cupcake that helped me (which I was and am grateful for) the rest have been done the standard way..
By playing the game and winning matches.

What makes the argument against cupcakes so compelling is that people EASILY reach 1300 using a chain of cupcakes. Its not supposed to be easy it's supposed to be hard , something which only good rosters can hit. I've seen 3* rosters at 2k points which I'm assuming is down to cupcakes, that's clearly not meant to happen. Why are people mad about the loss of cupcakes? Because now they have to actually play properly for their points and shock horror...they're concerned that without cupcakes they might not get 1300, that just means you shouldn't have got it in the first place.

I believe d3 has addressed the fact that they understand the progressions were too tough to hit (encouraging baking) and rather than just taking awav your toys and leaving you to sulk they lowered the progressions in order to try and fix that issue.

Wait until you've played the new system with the clearance levels before all this conjecture.

Crowl

Punisher5784 wrote:

Why can't we have a PVP system that only reduces your points when you actually lose, not when the AI loses with my defensive team.

While this system would be better in many ways, you would then shift the winning criteria from being just about who was fastest to who was fastest and had the most time, but maybe that would be fine since it would only be a negative for those chasing placements and progression rewards would generally become more accessible.

Vhailorx

OneLastGambit wrote:

We still don't know the reward structure for clearance levels in PvP yet so this may yet address the issue of "not enough points to reach the 4* cover"
Secondly I have hit the 1k cover numerous times in this season and it steadily increased from zero times 2 seasons ago to what I'm at now.

Twice in that time I found a cupcake that helped me (which I was and am grateful for) the rest have been done the standard way..
By playing the game and winning matches.

What makes the argument against cupcakes so compelling is that people EASILY reach 1300 using a chain of cupcakes. Its not supposed to be easy it's supposed to be hard , something which only good rosters can hit. I've seen 3* rosters at 2k points which I'm assuming is down to cupcakes, that's clearly not meant to happen. Why are people mad about the loss of cupcakes? Because now they have to actually play properly for their points and shock horror...they're concerned that without cupcakes they might not get 1300, that just means you shouldn't have got it in the first place.

As has been stated elsewhere many times: even those whobdont eat cupcakes benefited from higher point slices. So while it's great that you hit 1k 'straight up' (seriously, nice work!), that doesn't mean that you didn't benefit from cakes.

I really dont understand the whole 'cupcakes make 3* rosters able to hit 1.3k ealier than they should' argument. What does that mean? This is an entirely arbitrary leveling system created for a game. There is no morally correct roster strenth for reaching 1.3k. Everyone wins 90+ percent of their matches in this game anyway; the trick is winning them fast, and that's where 3* rosters fail in PvP.

Personally, I think 3* rosters should absolutely be able to reach both the 4* cover and the cp rewards. Those rewards are the best way for 3* players to build out their 4* roster. Of that also means that 3* players are getting too many 5* covers, then maybe demi shouldn't have made **** rng LTs the primary way to flesh out a 4* roster and the only way to get 5*s.

2* players should be able to reach 3* rewards with some effort. And 3* players should be able to get 4* rewards.

Under the old system, 3* could barely even reach the 3* rewards let alone the 4*s and cp! Cupcaking made this easier for both participants and everyone else. It therefore improved the game for players, and that's a good thing!
(and its not like cupcaking is an instant win button like super whales. It still requires a fairly strong roster, lots of time, and some HP to climb high enough to reach the bakery.)

And as for why people are mad: it's because the old system sucks when played straight. Who likes off-season events? They are a pain in the ****. People are worried that, whatever demi's intent, these changes will make a game the game even more demanding in terms of time/money. And this is a game that already asks an awful lot of its players.

Of course players should wait any see before starting a riot. But that doesn't mean that players can't voice concerns now.

Huatimus

For those seeking hard facts, look no further than the current event, BOP.

No cupcakes since every roster is level 550.
Few people shielding since it's off-season and points are lost too fast to bother.
Almost even playing field for everybody since everything is boosted to 550. (4* are still better than 3* and 2*)

Now look at the scores, not many people hitting 1.3K, and even if they did, ask how many shields they had to burn to get there? It's just a big fat mass **** and almost everybody loses since few people are even hitting progression. (I'm not saying that all future PVP events will become like BOP because of the upcoming changes, and I sincerely hope not. Just stating facts about BOP.) Just because you have not progressed enough in the game to get better rewards, no one else should get more rewards than you?

P.S. I'm not a whale(just a **** Squid) and no champed 5*(but lucky to have a 12 cover OML), but I've definitely progressed slowly from 2* to 3* to 4* and been through the same ****.

P.P.S. I seldom bake cupcakes but I distinctly remember baking when some 'snipers' came around seeking to snipe cupcakes. I purposely did it because the game is hard enough to progress and I rather have more players winning.

Astralgazer

Huatimus wrote:

For those seeking hard facts, look no further than the current event, BOP.

No cupcakes since every roster is level 550.
Few people shielding since it's off-season and points are lost too fast to bother.
Almost even playing field for everybody since everything is boosted to 550. (4* are still better than 3* and 2*)

Now look at the scores, not many people hitting 1.3K, and even if they did, ask how many shields they had to burn to get there? It's just a big fat mass **** and almost everybody loses since few people are even hitting progression. (I'm not saying that all future PVP events will become like BOP because of the upcoming changes, and I sincerely hope not. Just stating facts about BOP.) Just because you have not progressed enough in the game to get better rewards, no one else should get more rewards than you?

P.S. I'm not a whale(just a **** Squid) and no champed 5*(but lucky to have a 12 cover OML), but I've definitely progressed slowly from 2* to 3* to 4* and been through the same ****.

P.P.S. I seldom bake cupcakes but I distinctly remember baking when some 'snipers' came around seeking to snipe cupcakes. I purposely did it because the game is hard enough to progress and I rather have more players winning.

I have looked into the ranks in my slice of BOP. Looks normal to me. 1d3h to go and people have started to hit 1k at the top. With or wihout cupcakes, people still enjoy slugging it out, apparently.

If anything, BOP shows that even without cupcakes, the game is still enjoyable.

KrisPWales

I am one of the 3*->4* transitioners that will be negatively affected by the change. I had fairly recently got into the CC game with an alliance so that I could get the 4* covers I needed to progress. Dropping the progression targets by only 100 points is a joke.

I won't be playing PvP anymore as it won't be possible for me to get any rewards I need, unless there are other undisclosed changes. Especially as they've made 4* and CP so much easier to get from PvE recently.

Huatimus

Astralgazer wrote:

I have looked into the ranks in my slice of BOP. Looks normal to me. 1d3h to go and people have started to hit 1k at the top. With or wihout cupcakes, people still enjoy slugging it out, apparently.

If anything, BOP shows that even without cupcakes, the game is still enjoyable.

That's not 'normal', other PVP events have about 50+ people hitting 1.3K and above. But that's end of event scores, so yea sure, still have a day to go for your slice to hit 1.3K.

simonsez

Astralgazer wrote:

If anything, BOP shows that even without cupcakes, the game is still enjoyable.

I can't accept any premise that uses "BOP" and "enjoyable" in the same sentence...

Crowl

simonsez wrote:

Astralgazer wrote:

If anything, BOP shows that even without cupcakes, the game is still enjoyable.

I can't accept any premise that uses "BOP" and "enjoyable" in the same sentence...

Indeed, BOP most generally demonstrates that not playing the game can be more fun.

Fightmastermpq

Astralgazer wrote:

This sense among the big hitters that somehow they are entitled to cupcakes is, for lack of sensible word, weird. At least from my point of view as one of the bottom feeders. I took a meticulous look at the top 10 alliances in the last Ragnarok event, and they are choke full of 4* rosters. Where are the 3* transitioners that, allegedly, benefit from the cupcake system? Instead of saying "rising tides float all the boats", can you cupcake defenders back your argument with hard facts? Or is it just a reasoning that you have repeated so often to yourselves, you now believe it as a fact?

Kinda like those in Wallstreet who feel that they are entitled to game the system, even though they are whales already. But I digress.

There have been some threats that you all will go beserk on us, the 3* roster players who see cupcaking as unfair, fine. I will enter PVP at lower SCL, to fight for 2* rewards--because this is what I normally get from playing PVP without cupcakes. This is what my roster is good for, so I will just embrace it.

P.S. I did find someone in the top 10 alliance I mentioned above who has mostly 3* roster (and not very different from mine), except that he has IMHB and Iceman championed, and no other fully covered 4*. I can't believe his luck!

P.P.S. If you guys really want to game the new system, you can start coordinating OOG to climb to 1k using 3* roster, queue each other as before, shield, and in the last hour or so, start pounding each other with your strongest team. You need to be precise on timing though. It will be more complicated to coordinate, but I guess you are all accustomed to seeing PVP as Cooperative gameplay, anyway. Don't worry, you will find new exploits, you're whales after all.

It's obvious you don't really understand how PvP works, or why. First off, alliances make PvP a cooperative game mode. I know you like to look at the term "player versus player" and assume that any collusion among players is "cheating", but alliances reward players for working together to boost alliance scores, and individual rewards based on how well the group does as a whole. Stop complaining about people communicating with their friends outside the game as players working together is intended gameplay.

Secondly, whales don't need cupcakes. Most events I hit 1300 without shielding, without baking, and without hitting any cakes - and I'm not even really a true whale, I've just spent/played enough to have a champed OML/Phx. So even though I don't directly benefit from cakes, I recognize that the only reason I am able to queue 75 pt targets from 1200 is because others have baked their way to 2k+.

It's laughable that you think that T10 rosters lacking 3* players proves that 3* players don't benefit from cupcakes. Absurd. The fact that you have found even a single instance of a 3* player in a T10 (Top 200 player out of thousands) is proof that it works. I've seen guys with 3* rosters score over 2k. It's rare, but it happens. The other thing you obviously don't understand is that the score people finish with is not indicative of how much they have benefited from cupcakes. Why would a 3* player hit 1k in S4, and then spend even a drop of HP to preserve that score so they can finish T250? The benefit of cupcakes is seen through progression, not placement.

Your final comment really proves that you have no idea what PvP is like for top tier players. A 5* player cannot queue any 3* teams. None. Even if I start an event using a 3* team I'll never queue a similar team, and none of my 5* player friends will ever be able to find that 3* team that I put out - at least not until they get over 800 pts (or as high as 1200 or even higher if it's later in the event.) But by then those 3* teams are rarely worth more than 10 pts.

It's amusing that you have so much contempt for players that have been supporting both your game financially, as well as your progression through the game through cupcakes (albeit indirectly clearly without you even understanding or believing that it is happening.) But now you've bit the hand that has fed you. It's a bold move, let's see how it plays out for you.