Better without Kiora

nexus13

At least when you lose to Koth it tends to be relatively fast. Some games against Kiora take 20+ minutes.

Avacyn

Kiora is fine imo. It the card she have access to is what make her seem OP. we just need more duo pw with color associated with green to widen the scoop on kiora.

I imagine red/green is going to be devastating.

Netatron

Avacyn wrote:

Kiora is fine imo. It the card she have access to is what make her seem OP. we just need more duo pw with color associated with green to widen the scoop on kiora.

I imagine red/green is going to be devastating.

Yep, the reason people get frustrated by Kiora's abilities is because she's one of the few PWs who the AI uses the abilities of in a way that makes sense, and how frustrating it is when you have bad luck with RNG matches and can't get mana as fast as she can take it away, but that's not really a problem with Kiora herself. Green/blue on a planeswalker with no abilities at all would still destroy people just by having a few of the right mythics.

madwren

The largest problem with Kiora isn't that she generates mana, it's that she steals it. That's a 12-mana swing, which is often multiple turns worth of mana. Every use of it puts the opponent behind. If she simply gained 6 mana, it wouldn't be quite as advantageous. Her ramp, plus the mana denial of the first ability--which, with enough gem converters, is available nearly every turn--creates a hole that is very hard to climb out of.

The best way to combat her is by building fast, cheap decks.

MTG_Mage

Problem:

The issue with Kiora is that she has the following advantages:

-All colors have at least 1 mass removal spell. However the reason it is so brutal with blue is because the 2 mass removal blue spells have no drawback and instead are always advantagus to the caster! I am refering to Crush of Tentacles and Engulf the Shore, which kills the board guaranteed (which is better than the red which do 6 damage, or blacks temp -6/-6) and with crush gives you a 16/16 with reach and trample, wheras engulf the shore only removes opponents creatures...aaannnd every kiora deck uses them.

-All 3 of Kioras abilities are great
The 1st ability of a PW is their most important and defining ability, especially since the AI will spam it as much as possible as soon as it has the loyalty.
Kiora's first ability is just too powerful and super annoying to play against.
To me the most annoying thing in this game is:
-when the AI kills you creature that you just spent a ton of mana and time on with a cheap kill spell - this is magnified when its a mass removal spell. This is even worse when instead of killing it the AI permanently gains control of it (now you are out a creature AND have to deal with the new enemy creature your opponent just got for a significantly lower mana investment)
-mana drain or discard
Now combine all that with Blue card advange.

-Speed - green mana advantage
Green ramp is out of had. Adding green as the second color to any dual colored PW instantly makes it superior to the other duel PWs due to the amount of conversion or mana bonus cards green has. These cards are all low cost as well.

Solution:

Kiora:
Nerf her crashing waves loyalty cost from 6 to 9
Nerf the octopi tokens she generates to NOT have reach or trample (this applies to crush of tentacles too)

Green:
Seasons Past be reworded so that it itself is exiled when cast (THIS IS A MUST)
relook at all green mana conversion/boost cards and nerf like animist's awakening was (this would be good for the game as a whole)

Conclusion:
we now can have the remaining 5 dual colored PWs (of which 3 are green and 2 are blue)

For further planewalker balancing suggestions, read and comment on this thread to get the attention of the devs viewtopic.php?f=36&t=48824

shteev

Why didn't they just make Sorin not suck? OP his abilities, charge $60 for him, clean up. I've no idea why this didn't happen.

JMussels

MTG_Mage wrote:

Solution:

Kiora:
Nerf her crashing waves loyalty cost from 6 to 9
Nerf the octopi tokens she generates to NOT have reach or trample (this applies to crush of tentacles too)

Overkill much? I get the first suggestion but not the second? Maybe remove reach OR trample (Honestly, I'd keep both - both tentacle spawns are expensive enough that they aren't coming out immediately that often)? All of those adjustments together would make Kiora pretty "meh," imo... It's ok for a Planeswalker to be strong and fast (see: Koth) - just not on a different tier from all others.

Don't think anyone is arguing about Seasons Past, btw, but we already knew they'll be fixing that one.

Buret0

Steeme wrote:

I agree that Kiora can be utterly annoying when she keeps draining mana, especially when she's combined with an equally annoying assortment of cards controlled by an equally annoying AI. (As a side note does the AI actually use anything other than the first ability on Kiora?.

Of course she does. The turn after you take out her massive cascade you get a 32/32 octopus with reach.

MTG_Mage

JMussels wrote:

MTG_Mage wrote:

Solution:

Kiora:
Nerf her crashing waves loyalty cost from 6 to 9
Nerf the octopi tokens she generates to NOT have reach or trample (this applies to crush of tentacles too)

Overkill much? I get the first suggestion but not the second? Maybe remove reach OR trample (Honestly, I'd keep both - both tentacle spawns are expensive enough that they aren't coming out immediately that often)? All of those adjustments together would make Kiora pretty "meh," imo... It's ok for a Planeswalker to be strong and fast (see: Koth) - just not on a different tier from all others.

Don't think anyone is arguing about Seasons Past, btw, but we already knew they'll be fixing that one.

I'm thinking you didnt read my whole post because I explicitly state that the adjusting of the octopi tokens fixes kiora and blues massively OP mass removal spell crush of tentacles. Octopus tokens having a catchall defensive ability of reach and unstoppable offensive ability trample on a huge body is waaaayy too much. It needs to have both, or at the very least one, of those removed. Kiora will still be good after these adjustments.

and as for speed being ok, thats completely not true, since koth is arguably the most OP PW and needs a nerf badly. If you followed the link in my post you will see I have suggestions for Ajani, Jace, Garruk, Sorin, Koth and Kiora.
I will put it here again

MTG_Mage wrote:

For further planewalker balancing suggestions, read and comment on this thread to get the attention of the devs viewtopic.php?f=36&t=48824

Steeme

MTG_Mage wrote:

JMussels wrote:

MTG_Mage wrote:

Solution:

Kiora:
Nerf her crashing waves loyalty cost from 6 to 9
Nerf the octopi tokens she generates to NOT have reach or trample (this applies to crush of tentacles too)

Overkill much? I get the first suggestion but not the second? Maybe remove reach OR trample (Honestly, I'd keep both - both tentacle spawns are expensive enough that they aren't coming out immediately that often)? All of those adjustments together would make Kiora pretty "meh," imo... It's ok for a Planeswalker to be strong and fast (see: Koth) - just not on a different tier from all others.

Don't think anyone is arguing about Seasons Past, btw, but we already knew they'll be fixing that one.

I'm thinking you didnt read my whole post because I explicitly state that the adjusting of the octopi tokens fixes kiora and blues massively OP mass removal spell crush of tentacles. Octopus tokens having a catchall defensive ability of reach and unstoppable offensive ability trample on a huge body is waaaayy too much. It needs to have both, or at the very least one, of those removed. Kiora will still be good after these adjustments.

and as for speed being ok, thats completely not true, since koth is arguably the most OP PW and needs a nerf badly. If you followed the link in my post you will see I have suggestions for Ajani, Jace, Garruk, Sorin, Koth and Kiora.
I will put it here again

MTG_Mage wrote:

For further planewalker balancing suggestions, read and comment on this thread to get the attention of the devs viewtopic.php?f=36&t=48824

Interestingly enough, I rarely use the Octopus at all. Kiora's first and second abilities are much more useful. I only get to the third ability if I've already overpowered my opponent. I don't think it needs a nerf.

I don't have crush of tentacles, but it has been used against me. Doesn't a quick 5-cost removal spell take care of it? Even a 4-cost disperse? Disable?

HunMike

I honestly disagree with most of that.

Koth isn't OP, he is just unbalanced. He just goes for the greater gain via accepting the greater risk of having a bad start/being stuck in the middle. It was fully intentional from the start. Sometimes he's going berzerk, but way more often he can be just nicely handled. Of course you have to slow down against him to make him suffer from mana denial but he never really annoyed me this far. Harness the Storm in a good deck would be near OP with every other red pw as well.

The tentacles aren't as bad as you think, by the time the octopi are onboard (heh), she could've had a couple other ways to have an even bigger advantage. Again, her cards are the main issue. They are OP of course but can't provide as strong synergy as the other decks. They just stomp you over and over. There are way worst options to play against in the green/blue card pool than that, let's just be thankful the most skilled players didn't go for it so far. That would really cause the whole game suck.

For the record, i don't count myself in that group either.

In general, in every card game, there are decks what a specific deck just can't beat, given a card pool big enough. And this goes for every deck. My experience is that in every match there is at least one opening where you can tip the scales to your favor, even against the most OP decks. I really don't like the idea of explaining in detail because i don't want to give more ideas to those with the mentioned decks. They certainly spend more time (and money) on the game then the average user, it is fair they have the advantage, but i don't want to take that further.

The marathon-like matches are still annoying though. If i wanted to watch animations I'd go with a Pixar movie instead
They eat the battery and put the player behind the others who were fortunate enough to have faster matches.

Sherwood

Monk wrote:

When luck wins vs strategy, it's very frustrating ^^

I agree, but this also introduces similarities with the physic card game where winning also depends on you drawing what you need at the right time.

That feature makes new players get into the game because it makes them feel that they could eventually deal with any opponent. That kind of things do not happen in other games such as chess for instance.

JMussels

MTG_Mage wrote:

I'm thinking you didnt read my whole post because I explicitly state that the adjusting of the octopi tokens fixes kiora and blues massively OP mass removal spell crush of tentacles.

No, I did read it all - I just didn't want to reproduce it all (it was long). I really don't think that adjusting the tentacles is the answer, though. As someone earlier stated (quite correctly) Planeswalkers are defined by their first ability and I'll add due to the AI. Seriously, I can count the number of times AI has dropped Kiora's third ability on me on one hand. The tentacles are removable by any standard means. They don't bug me, at least (and that's all that matters, right? lol). Meanwhile someone like Jace almost has to have Crush of Tentacles if you want to play him and he would suffer even more if it was neutered. I think blue is quite not OP - the concern should be more with the blue-green combo and so should be with Kiora alone (imo).

MTG_Mage wrote:

and as for speed being ok, thats completely not true, since koth is arguably the most OP PW and needs a nerf badly. If you followed the link in my post you will see I have suggestions for Ajani, Jace, Garruk, Sorin, Koth and Kiora.

I thought we were talking about Kiora here? But seriously, while I did read your entire post here, I have not read your suggestions on the other 'Walkers. I'd imagine that not all of your suggestions are for nerfs (poor Jace, lol) but isn't the fact that multiple 'Walkers "need" nerfs proof that they, in fact, don't? If Kiora and Koth are the only nerfs you call for, maybe I'd be on board. But if lots of 'Walkers are OP, aren't none of them? Or at least only a couple? I guess for me it kind of boils down to that I just haven't been scared of Kiora in a while now compared to a few other 'Walkers, like some others have stated above.

MTG_Mage

JMussels wrote:

As someone earlier stated (quite correctly) Planeswalkers are defined by their first ability and I'll add due to the AI.

MTG_Mage wrote:

The 1st ability of a PW is their most important and defining ability, especially since the AI will spam it as much as possible as soon as it has the loyalty.

Yes that was me in the very post you are talking about
and yes the suggestions for the other PWs are buffs with nerfs (and buff) for koth and kiora
and green gem conversion cards need to be toned down (as I stated earlier), so that with the increased loyalty from 6 to 9 should reduce her ramping speed appropriately

JMussels

Haha glad I could quote you to you, then. My point simply being that the 1st ability (and the ramp) made more sense for adjustment (to me) than tampering with the tentacles.

Theros

JMussels wrote:

MTG_Mage wrote:

I'm thinking you didnt read my whole post because I explicitly state that the adjusting of the octopi tokens fixes kiora and blues massively OP mass removal spell crush of tentacles.

No, I did read it all - I just didn't want to reproduce it all (it was long). I really don't think that adjusting the tentacles is the answer, though. As someone earlier stated (quite correctly) Planeswalkers are defined by their first ability and I'll add due to the AI. Seriously, I can count the number of times AI has dropped Kiora's third ability on me on one hand. The tentacles are removable by any standard means. They don't bug me, at least (and that's all that matters, right? lol). Meanwhile someone like Jace almost has to have Crush of Tentacles if you want to play him and he would suffer even more if it was neutered. I think blue is quite not OP - the concern should be more with the blue-green combo and so should be with Kiora alone (imo).

MTG_Mage wrote:

and as for speed being ok, thats completely not true, since koth is arguably the most OP PW and needs a nerf badly. If you followed the link in my post you will see I have suggestions for Ajani, Jace, Garruk, Sorin, Koth and Kiora.

I thought we were talking about Kiora here? But seriously, while I did read your entire post here, I have not read your suggestions on the other 'Walkers. I'd imagine that not all of your suggestions are for nerfs (poor Jace, lol) but isn't the fact that multiple 'Walkers "need" nerfs proof that they, in fact, don't? If Kiora and Koth are the only nerfs you call for, maybe I'd be on board. But if lots of 'Walkers are OP, aren't none of them? Or at least only a couple? I guess for me it kind of boils down to that I just haven't been scared of Kiora in a while now compared to a few other 'Walkers, like some others have stated above.

I agree with you. Seems someone does not like seeing tentacles. Them octopus do not remotely give Kiora any competitive advantage, better cards or worst are available. I just don't understand why/how the tentacles make kiora OP. Tentacles are only good if you play against AI in story mode, but the AI using them elsewhere put itself at a serious disadvantage.
I play in gold tier and people have been using combos that are more deadlier than anything tentacles can do. They are rare to see and the AI always make the mistake of destroying his momentum by destroying his creatures. The Ai rarely uses his third ability.

Haunted Cloak which is a colorless spell grant Vigilance, Haste and Trample to target creature at 1 mana cost only
There is no point in removing the reach or temple from tentacles since there are cheap spells/support that can grant similar skills.
In fact, Haunted cloak+ Sage of Ancient Lore and/or Silverfur Partisan combo destroys any type of tentacles Kiora has to offer. Its fast, reliable and repeatable.

People complaint that 6 mana drain is not fair. But its also not fair for Koth to play his entire deck in one turn and removed anything any creatures and supports you played in the process.

tm00

The fix is so simple, just program ob nixilis to not fire his first 2 abilities until he has the support gained from the third out, and to prioritize loyalty gems, if this doesn't work also program it to save draw spells until it activates the support by disabling them.

nobody will complain about kiora and koth being op any longer.

Avacyn

balance is such a hairy topic... because how subjective it is. some say Kiora's 3rd skill is OP. others think it her drain. I personal don't have problems with either.
for the same amount of loyalty Gideon(ally) & Garruk can spawn tokens as powerful as Kiora's 3rd skill (minus the whole being able to block mechanic. but nothing a haunted cloak cant fix).

Kiora's drain isn't as annoying to me as Lilliana's card removal (not saying lily needs a nerf). the drain only takes away 6mana. whereas lily she flat out removes the card. making all the mana you invested in charging up that fattie a waste. all for the same price of 6pts of loyalty. I'll get drain any day over card removal (especially when I'm not on a speed deck).

Koth is a high risk high reward kind of PW. on a good opening, he can unload his entire hand in a turn (so can anyone with cascade for that matter). but in reality finding consistent red matches isn't easy. and without his reds, he is as slow as it gets. So denying him reds by mana convertor and or straight up taking it well get you the upper hand. so duo color PW that is red/some other color well always give him a hard time if you prioritize red.

Netatron

Avacyn wrote:

balance is such a hairy topic... because how subjective it is. some say Kiora's 3rd skill is OP. others think it her drain. I personal don't have problems with either.
for the same amount of loyalty Gideon(ally) & Garruk can spawn tokens as powerful as Kiora's 3rd skill (minus the whole being able to block mechanic. but nothing a haunted cloak cant fix).

Kiora's drain isn't as annoying to me as Lilliana's card removal (not saying lily needs a nerf). the drain only takes away 6mana. whereas lily she flat out removes the card. making all the mana you invested in charging up that fattie a waste. all for the same price of 6pts of loyalty. I'll get drain any day over card removal (especially when I'm not on a speed deck).

Yep. The issue I see isn't that Kiora's skills are too good, it's that most planeswalkers' have skills that are too weak or expensive, or not actually useful over other skills they have. (Ajani, Garruck, Gideon, Jace, Liliana, Nissa, Sorin, Tezzeret, and arguably more.)

JMussels

I know I got caught up in the discussion but I actually have no problem with Kiora, either. I enjoy playing as her and don't throw my phone or anything when I see a match against her. I can pretty much build decks I enjoy playing (and feel like I will win more often than not) with all the Planeswalkers I've got..... except Jace. Poor Jace.