MMR: Where are the players who look like ME?

2

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  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    carrion pigeons wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I don't know why players with MUCH higher rosters can see my roster, but I can't see players with MUCH lower rosters!

    Presumably for two reasons: players with much better rosters than yours don't have many people to look up to in the first place, plus they probably skip a whole lot more.

    The problem amplifies because people with much better rosters can basically see every roster not running two max 5*'s as seed teams, so they yo-yo the entire event for ISO and/or they climb the last three hours to 1500+ because they can.

    I've complained for over two years that I don't know why they have 2.5 day PVP's when those points in the first 48 hours are so easily given back.
  • meekersX
    meekersX Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    I have two decently covered 5*. 390 OML 3/4/2 and soft-capped 430 Silver Surfer 4/5/4. I can defeat one maxed 5* but not two, and a bad cascade can wipe me.

    There's a large point that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far. Those players with a championed 5* or two can climb for a long time without shielding and gain points, while those with less covered 5* cannot. This means when you climb higher and the game looks for matches worth points, it will find many more people with championed 5* simply because there are many more of them unshielded relative to lesser rosters at any particular time.
  • kobu
    kobu Posts: 165 Tile Toppler
    carrion pigeons wrote:
    The current MMR rewards wide rosters much more than tall ones.

    Tall rosters presumably do get matched up together, but just by the nature of randomness they're more prone to variance at the top end, plus are more vulnerable to the consequences of a bad cascade or whatever. If someone wants a manageable MMR they should just avoid making tall rosters. They're just setting themselves up to have a harder time than they need to.

    That can't be right. I'm constantly matched up against people with championed and boosted 3* and 4*, skip, skip, skip, and maybe I'll see someone around my level who is just getting into 2* champions. Same with Story mode. My current bracket's top 10 is made up of nothing but people with 3* and 4* champions with hefty numbers of 5* covers. It's been like that since I started.
  • dsds
    dsds Posts: 526
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?
  • amusingfoo1
    amusingfoo1 Posts: 597 Critical Contributor
    Polares wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    amusingfoo1 wrote:
    The single-biggest factor in determining up with whom you are matched is score.
    Not in my experience. The matches I see after seeds (if I get any) are no different than what I see later.

    I agree with simonsez. Score determines your particular sub (so the people you see on your leader-board), but not your opponents. The people you fight is only determined (or 90%) by the level of your 3 most levelled chars (and your time slice of course).

    I'm going from what CS told me a while ago (back when I was running into that situation regularly):
    Whenever you reach a certain point value in PvP, the only players left for you to fight are other players that have reached similar point values, which in most cases are more developed rosters. The system does its best to match you appropriately, but if you are performing "too" well for your roster, you may see a larger number of higher geared rosters.

    And I should clarify, too, that if you have two highly-leveled 5*s, then the score becomes way less relevant. It still matters, if there are a lot of 5*s out, you'll see the ones close to you in score far more often than the ones at much higher scores, but you can often find the much higher ones. And the range of scores you'll see, when there are a bunch out, is a lot more people above you than below you. When there are very few out, at least within your point range, then you can queue just about anyone (I once queued a seed team from somewhere around 1500).
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    dsds wrote:
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?

    That's the part that gets me. I usually run the PVP events at the start to about 300, and then fall to 150 or so on ~20 hits. But that many hits...TONS of them I lose five points or less, which means the people hitting me are gaining practically no points. So I'm not a target because I'm worthwhile - I'm a target because I'm a super easy match-up for them. But after an event has been open for an hour I have a heck of a time finding anyone that I feel confident about beating easily, no way I'd be taking on any match I see for 30 points!
  • dsds
    dsds Posts: 526
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    dsds wrote:
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?

    That's the part that gets me. I usually run the PVP events at the start to about 300, and then fall to 150 or so on ~20 hits. But that many hits...TONS of them I lose five points or less, which means the people hitting me are gaining practically no points. So I'm not a target because I'm worthwhile - I'm a target because I'm a super easy match-up for them. But after an event has been open for an hour I have a heck of a time finding anyone that I feel confident about beating easily, no way I'd be taking on any match I see for 30 points!
    In fact it's not worth while to take any 30pt matches. If the other player retaliates, you would be at a net negative for pts. So not only do you risk losing the match and lose points, you also risk losing more points if the other player retaliates. Personally I would retaliate anybody who hits me and has a lower roster just to get the iso or to reset my skip counter so I get to skip 4 more times before losing iso again.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    dsds wrote:
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?

    That's the part that gets me. I usually run the PVP events at the start to about 300, and then fall to 150 or so on ~20 hits. But that many hits...TONS of them I lose five points or less, which means the people hitting me are gaining practically no points. So I'm not a target because I'm worthwhile - I'm a target because I'm a super easy match-up for them. But after an event has been open for an hour I have a heck of a time finding anyone that I feel confident about beating easily, no way I'd be taking on any match I see for 30 points!
    Below 300 you lose almost no points, while people get 60+ off you.
    So no, you're not hit because people get 20 points off your team. you just lose almost nothing while at 300.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    dsds wrote:
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?

    That's the part that gets me. I usually run the PVP events at the start to about 300, and then fall to 150 or so on ~20 hits. But that many hits...TONS of them I lose five points or less, which means the people hitting me are gaining practically no points. So I'm not a target because I'm worthwhile - I'm a target because I'm a super easy match-up for them. But after an event has been open for an hour I have a heck of a time finding anyone that I feel confident about beating easily, no way I'd be taking on any match I see for 30 points!

    This is something I didn't know for a long time, but you lose points relative to your opponent's gain, proportional to how many points out of 1000 you have.'

    So if you only have a couple hundred points, the opponent might pull 40 points off you but you'll only lose a handful. But once you get up closer to 1000, you start to lose closer to the full amount of what people took from you. This is why yo-yoers do what they do (aside from just farming Iso). It's putting more points into their shard, which makes their final climb easier.
  • jobob
    jobob Posts: 680 Critical Contributor
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    dsds wrote:
    Yeah I think the lower rosters shield a lot. Also i normally do find players with lower roster, but only in the beginning. Once i hit over 300, there are no more lower roster players anymore. Maybe it's because everyone is looking for them so they don't show up after a certain pt level?

    Also when I am being attacked, I don't see a lot of high level rosters with low points. I am usually hit by 15-20 people that chip off 10-30 pts each. There is the occasional 45 pt loses, but rarely any 75 pts ones. So I guess maybe once you have high enough points, you get to attack anyone you want (maybe you are seen by everyone and everyone is seen by you. but if you are low on points, you are stuck with whoever is in your bracket?

    That's the part that gets me. I usually run the PVP events at the start to about 300, and then fall to 150 or so on ~20 hits. But that many hits...TONS of them I lose five points or less, which means the people hitting me are gaining practically no points. So I'm not a target because I'm worthwhile - I'm a target because I'm a super easy match-up for them. But after an event has been open for an hour I have a heck of a time finding anyone that I feel confident about beating easily, no way I'd be taking on any match I see for 30 points!
    SnowcaTT, it's not that you're a super easy target and/or not worthwhile. When you are at those low point levels and getting hit by higher rosters worth few points, it's probably because they are stuck in MMR Hell. When you have a full 5* roster, and you are at a point in the PVP where lots of players are bunched together with a similar score and not shielded, you really get boxed in by MMR, and only see low-point value targets. You have to hit several of those sometimes before you can separate yourself from the pack enough to see some higher value targets.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's a complicated problem, to be fair to demi.

    Because shield makes players invisible, it's almost invariably true that, for any given roster strength at or above their equilibrium point, most comparable teams in the same point range are shielded. So it's not surprising that it's much easier to find unshielded mega-whales instead of similar baby-whales (who are probably all hiding from the mega-whales behind shields of their own).

    But I also think that MMR hasn't really ever been properly calibrated to 5*s. 5*s are just so wildly over-powered relative to the lower tiers that it's pretty hard to create an MMR curve that doesn't have a cliff-of-doom between 4* land and 5* land. Along with the 2* rosters + a 1-cover 5* = scaling death problem, I think this was a predictable complication of releasing 5*s with literally 2.5x more health and 4x more match damage than any existing character. But demi has seemingly had a hard time fixing those problems.
  • Eddiemon
    Eddiemon Posts: 1,470 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think your problem is statistical distribution.

    There are 'plenty' of whale type players with championed 5 stars. And there are even more of us keeping our 5 stars below our champed 4 stars. And even more with elrse rosters.

    But players with a single 5 star far outstripping the rest of their roster, that has to be a tiny club. And then you have to be in the same score band as them to really get a chance to hit them.
  • Alsmir
    Alsmir Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    Ahh, matchmaker...

    One fully covered (not champed) 3*, one at 11 covers, one at 10. That's my setup. In PvP I usually meet champed (and obviously boosted) 3*, anything from 1 to 3 5* at the same time (1-3 covers though), ocassuionally someone with fully covered/champed 4*.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is a very tough problem. As I said before, soft capping doesnt help, the amount of people in between 350-450 would be much bigger if leveling your 5s was always good (which is not).

    I also think widening the MMR would make things worse to everybody below you, it would benefit a lot 550 teams, a bit 450 teams, probably the same to 380 teams, and worse to everybody else.

    I think the only possible solution is to change how we lose points and being also able to hit people with shields (but this second part is very tricky because of the Line communication).

    We dont want PvP to be a grind fest, and Devs need shields for their revenue so there are no easy solutions...
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    It's a complicated problem, to be fair to demi.

    Because shield makes players invisible, it's almost invariably true that, for any given roster strength at or above their equilibrium point, most comparable teams in the same point range are shielded.
    That's a good point, but this issue isn't just a thing once you get to shield scores. After I got past the seeds in earth's mightiest, I had two nodes with champed 5*s and one node that looked like me. At a point in the event where it can be showing me ANYONE, it shouldn't be prioritizing champed 5*s.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Eddiemon wrote:
    But players with a single 5 star far outstripping the rest of their roster, that has to be a tiny club.
    Did someone bring in "far outstripping their roster" when I wasn't looking? Otherwise, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people with one usable 5* and a bunch of champed 4*s. I've got to believe there are way more of them than people with double-champed 5*s.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    aesthetocyst wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Quebbster wrote:
    Level 435 isn't "undercovered", it's "almost finished". Fivestars were meant to be playable with just a few covers, so it's not strange a high-level fivestar affects your matchmaking.
    None of that addresses the gist of my question, and your last comment mischaracterizes what I'm saying. Obviously is should affect it; but why is my average opponent lv 452 and not lv435?

    What slice are you playing in and are you frontrunning? Playing well past 1300?

    The server can only serve up what's out there. The farther ahead of the pack you are, the less there is to choose from.
    4, no and no. So there's got to be plenty more options out there. I'm not saying you can't find appropriate matchups if you skip enough, I'm saying the default always seems to be to make you try to hit players whose rosters are always a few steps ahead of you.
  • dsds
    dsds Posts: 526
    Yesterday, while I was playing Earth's mightiest, I got hit by a team with 3 level450 5* characters! Is that crazy or what? I have no champed 4* characters, yet I can be seen by this player even when I am below 800 pts. It was one hell of a slog to get just the hulk cover. This is ridiculous. Just before hitting 800, I had like 4-6 people hit me, while no where in my grind to 750, did I ever get hit. It's almost as if the game delays the hits until you hit a certain point target to entice you to play and to use shields.

    Really they should just make shield targets visible. When shield targets are hit, the shielded player loses nothing, but the one who attacked still gains the points. This actually would increase revenue because people can't just stay shielded all the time as other players may outrank them simply by getting more points by hitting them. Maybe shielded targets give out only a fraction of the points they would be worth unshielded. This in turn would add more points to the bracket and progression would be easier. Also low level teams don't get clobbered to death. For example, someone who would be worth 75 pts when attacked unshielded, would be worth half when shielded. 37 pts is better than 20-30 pts. There would be no option for the shielded player to retaliate as they did not lose points and the points gain is only half. Heck even if you make flat rate (like 37 pts) for all shielded targets, that would be acceptable too.
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
    dsds wrote:
    It's almost as if the game delays the hits until you hit a certain point target to entice you to play and to use shields.

    At certain levels (points/rank) you do become visible to a larger audience, thereby increasing your odds of getting hit. So it isnt delaying the hits, its just that they came in once you crossed whatever threshold was necessary to be seen.

    dsds wrote:
    Really they should just make shield targets visible.

    Just a wee bit exploitable......
  • dsds
    dsds Posts: 526
    MarvelMan wrote:
    dsds wrote:
    It's almost as if the game delays the hits until you hit a certain point target to entice you to play and to use shields.

    At certain levels (points/rank) you do become visible to a larger audience, thereby increasing your odds of getting hit. So it isnt delaying the hits, its just that they came in once you crossed whatever threshold was necessary to be seen.

    dsds wrote:
    Really they should just make shield targets visible.

    Just a wee bit exploitable......
    Isn't that the same as what I said? Why are you summarizing what I said with different words. I never said delay points loss. Just the hits or attacks or whatever you call it.

    Also I just said that shield targets can have a flat point rate or a reduced rate. What would be the difference between hitting someone shielded at 37 pts compared with someone who isn't shielded at 37 pts? The only difference is that there would be a wider range of players to fight against with maybe more manageable rosters and it would put more points in the bracket. The cupcake guys are already trying to put more points in the brackets and it hasn't broken their system yet.

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