MMR: Where are the players who look like ME?

simonsez
simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
edited August 2016 in MPQ General Discussion
I have one usable 5*, and it's not cover-maxed. But in every LR and PvP, somewhere between half and 2/3 of all the matchups I see have a champed 5* and often two champed 5*s. Why don't I get to see more teams that have one undercovered 5* and a 4*, like me? And why do you even bother showing me someone with a lv460+ OML/PHX? I could've leveled a couple more 4*s with all the ISO I've had to waste skipping past teams I'm unlikely to beat. Shouldn't the majority of the matchups be against similar teams? And yet at every stage of progression, we mostly see teams that are clearly better.
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Comments

  • chamber44
    chamber44 Posts: 324 Mover and Shaker
    simonsez wrote:
    I have one usable 5*, and it's not cover-maxed. But in every LR and PvP, somewhere between half and 2/3 of all the matchups I see have a champed 5* and often two champed 5*s. Why don't I get to see more teams that have one undercovered 5* and a 4*, like me? And why do you even bother showing me someone with a lv460+ OML/PHX? I could've leveled a couple more 4*s with all the ISO I've had to waste skipping past teams I'm unlikely to beat. Shouldn't the majority of the matchups be against similar teams? And yet at every stage of progression, we mostly see teams that are clearly better.

    YES

    It's not even a question of winning the match, though a bad cascade can happen at any time. But why would i want to spend 9 minutes whittling down three opponents that are 100+ levels above me? That's aside from the fact that retaliations are a complete kitty. I don't mind they exist, but getting myself in the sights of a team that can wipe me out with minimal loss (read: w/o needing health packs after) is dumb. There would literally be no reason why the team wouldn't retaliate if i played 95% of the matches that were queued for me.

    What's the point of leveling characters if it just means i have to compete with rosters far better than my own for the same rewards. If this is going to be the new normal, they need to eliminate the skip tax or at least increase rewards (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). But spending 300-500 ISO skipping around to find a match that might get me 70 ISO + a cover is worthless.
  • tanis3303
    tanis3303 Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
    What level is your undercovered 5*? This seems to be the key, as it sounds like you and I have similar rosters...barely usable 5*s, with primarily champed 4*s to carry us. My 5*s are capped at 360, and pretty much all I see are my peers. Never see a 5* champion, ever. Some say 375 is still a safe 5* level before it all goes to kitty, but if yours is higher than that, it could explain why you're always outmatched
  • Jarvind
    Jarvind Posts: 1,684 Chairperson of the Boards
    tanis3303 wrote:
    What level is your undercovered 5*? This seems to be the key

    QFT. My only significantly leveled 5* is OML at 350. It's definitely screwed up my MMR somewhat - I see a ton of 390-415 OMLs and Phoenixes, which is annoying - but I have yet to see a maxed-out 5*. As such I'm leaving Logan where he is until I'm ready to max out a couple 5*s and just go all in.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    tanis3303 wrote:
    What level is your undercovered 5*? This seems to be the key, as it sounds like you and I have similar rosters...barely usable 5*s, with primarily champed 4*s to carry us. My 5*s are capped at 360, and pretty much all I see are my peers. Never see a 5* champion, ever. Some say 375 is still a safe 5* level before it all goes to kitty, but if yours is higher than that, it could explain why you're always outmatched
    435, but that's kinda my point. At EVERY point in progression, I would mostly see teams with 2 or 3 more covers than I had. Now that I'm at 435, that equates to champed characters. I don't get why the default tuning seems to always be you vs. "slightly" better teams. "Slightly" in quotes, because at a certain point, 1 or 2 extra covers are a much bigger deal than they are at lower levels.
  • tanis3303
    tanis3303 Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
    Heh...I never said it was right...or fair...or fun icon_e_biggrin.gif ...But that 435 is why its happening. I'll chalk this up as reason #87 to NOT level my 5*s up
  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    My OML is currently lv 420. I'm excited/terrified for what happens in 5-10 months when I finally win an OML Yellow and am able to level it up to 435... It's very annoying that what should be an exciting achievement turns into a frustrating situation, as battles become harder to win.

    Good thing I've gone casual, so none of this matters! I rarely bother to hit 1300 any more. Oy.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    The current MMR rewards wide rosters much more than tall ones.

    Tall rosters presumably do get matched up together, but just by the nature of randomness they're more prone to variance at the top end, plus are more vulnerable to the consequences of a bad cascade or whatever. If someone wants a manageable MMR they should just avoid making tall rosters. They're just setting themselves up to have a harder time than they need to.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    tanis3303 wrote:
    What level is your undercovered 5*? This seems to be the key, as it sounds like you and I have similar rosters...barely usable 5*s, with primarily champed 4*s to carry us. My 5*s are capped at 360, and pretty much all I see are my peers. Never see a 5* champion, ever. Some say 375 is still a safe 5* level before it all goes to kitty, but if yours is higher than that, it could explain why you're always outmatched
    435, but that's kinda my point. At EVERY point in progression, I would mostly see teams with 2 or 3 more covers than I had. Now that I'm at 435, that equates to champed characters. I don't get why the default tuning seems to always be you vs. "slightly" better teams. "Slightly" in quotes, because at a certain point, 1 or 2 extra covers are a much bigger deal than they are at lower levels.
    Level 435 isn't "undercovered", it's "almost finished". Fivestars were meant to be playable with just a few covers, so it's not strange a high-level fivestar affects your matchmaking.
  • amusingfoo1
    amusingfoo1 Posts: 597 Critical Contributor
    The single-biggest factor in determining up with whom you are matched is score. So what should happen is that you see very similar matches starting, and as your score goes up, you find tougher and tougher matches. I remember when I was first getting to 14-1500 (barely championed 4* roster at the time), I was finding my match-ups to largely be championed 5*s. "Squashed like a bug" came to mind, in envisioning how those matches would go. And yes, it's very annoying.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Quebbster wrote:
    Level 435 isn't "undercovered", it's "almost finished". Fivestars were meant to be playable with just a few covers, so it's not strange a high-level fivestar affects your matchmaking.
    None of that addresses the gist of my question, and your last comment mischaracterizes what I'm saying. Obviously is should affect it; but why is my average opponent lv 452 and not lv435?
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2016
    carrion pigeons wrote:
    The current MMR rewards wide rosters much more than tall ones.

    Tall rosters presumably do get matched up together, but just by the nature of randomness they're more prone to variance at the top end, plus are more vulnerable to the consequences of a bad cascade or whatever. If someone wants a manageable MMR they should just avoid making tall rosters. They're just setting themselves up to have a harder time than they need to.

    I agree completely with your first statement, and with your analysis, but winning 5s is VERY hard, so trying to level 5s as we did with 4s and 3s is super-mega slow. Getting to the point where you have 5 or 6 5s that can be champed is maybe a one year and a half or two year time work, so why bother, why play if I can level my fives now? I know I have just one or two 5s I can champ, but I want to use them now, not in a year!

    And power in 5s is very dependant on level, so a 435 level OML is two times better than a 350 level OML. That is another reason that pushes you to level your 5s.

    But yeah I agree, the 'clever' thing to do is level all your 5s to the 360 level. At that level they are usable and they don't destroy your MMR. This is something I hate from this game...

    simonsez wrote:
    Quebbster wrote:
    Level 435 isn't "undercovered", it's "almost finished". Fivestars were meant to be playable with just a few covers, so it's not strange a high-level fivestar affects your matchmaking.
    None of that addresses the gist of my question, and your last comment mischaracterizes what I'm saying. Obviously is should affect it; but why is my average opponent lv 452 and not lv435?

    I have to say, that one of the reasons now could be that there are many more players with 450 level 5s, than 435. A lot of players are soft capping their 5s in the 375 level, and when you pass that level is to champ your 5s, so now I think there is much little people transitioning from 375 to 450, than in the two extremes.

    The problem is again, that this game is much easier if you soft cap. Which is something that drives me crazy, and is completely stupid.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    amusingfoo1 wrote:
    The single-biggest factor in determining up with whom you are matched is score.
    Not in my experience. The matches I see after seeds (if I get any) are no different than what I see later.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    amusingfoo1 wrote:
    The single-biggest factor in determining up with whom you are matched is score.
    Not in my experience. The matches I see after seeds (if I get any) are no different than what I see later.

    I agree with simonsez. Score determines your particular sub (so the people you see on your leader-board), but not your opponents. The people you fight is only determined (or 90%) by the level of your 3 most levelled chars (and your time slice of course).
  • chamber44
    chamber44 Posts: 324 Mover and Shaker
    amusingfoo1 wrote:
    The single-biggest factor in determining up with whom you are matched is score. So what should happen is that you see very similar matches starting, and as your score goes up, you find tougher and tougher matches. I remember when I was first getting to 14-1500 (barely championed 4* roster at the time), I was finding my match-ups to largely be championed 5*s. "Squashed like a bug" came to mind, in envisioning how those matches would go. And yes, it's very annoying.
    maybe that's how it should be, but i have to skip unplayable matches starting at 300-500. And now that seed teams are no longer guaranteed based on when you join a slice, i might start at zero with teams that are my equal or even better (and this is with a mostly 3* champed, with 3 ususable 4*'s roster).
  • action711
    action711 Posts: 129 Tile Toppler
    You gotta sell your OML!

    I'm not gonna take my 5s up until I'm ready to enter 5* territory....
  • dsds
    dsds Posts: 526
    Well I am normally the one that would say yeah the MMR is broken. It is, don't get be wrong. But I'd have to disagree with you on fighting people who are the same as you. Maybe fighting people who are slightly better than you. This is because you are fighting an AI controlled defense team. So technically, you have an advantage so to make up for it, you should be fighting people slightly better, but probably not 100 levels above you though. Especially if the tier is also 1 tier higher.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    simonsez wrote:
    Not in my experience. The matches I see after seeds (if I get any) are no different than what I see later.

    I wonder if this is a function of when you play relative to your slice? People have said before that playing right out of the gate, or at times corresponding to T-minus-shield-times is a good way to only see really hard matches.

    I know in the past I've had events where it seemed like I couldn't get a good match to save my life at low points, while other events seem to have a much smoother progression, and I suspect it had to do with the times I played.
  • chamber44
    chamber44 Posts: 324 Mover and Shaker
    dsds wrote:
    Well I am normally the one that would say yeah the MMR is broken. It is, don't get be wrong. But I'd have to disagree with you on fighting people who are the same as you. Maybe fighting people who are slightly better than you. This is because you are fighting an AI controlled defense team. So technically, you have an advantage so to make up for it, you should be fighting people slightly better, but probably not 100 levels above you though. Especially if the tier is also 1 tier higher.
    yeah, but the name of the game is speed. Why play, why level, if it doesn't get me an advantage? why work and push into the 4* territory if it doesn't benefit me? (ignore for a moment the 4*vs5* meta)
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,487 Chairperson of the Boards
    OP situation is why I moved from 375 to 450...and let me tell you, it's even worse there.

    And I totally agree - I don't know why players with MUCH higher rosters can see my roster, but I can't see players with MUCH lower rosters! This is why I keep saying MMR needs to be widened - you should be able to see down and not just up!
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    I don't know why players with MUCH higher rosters can see my roster, but I can't see players with MUCH lower rosters!

    Presumably for two reasons: players with much better rosters than yours don't have many people to look up to in the first place, plus they probably skip a whole lot more.

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