Game "not clear" mechanics/interactions compilation

2

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  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Reaganstorme wrote:
    You need a "Clues do not count as supports" section also.

    As per our discussions previously.
    I thought I could just list all working so the rest would be not working by exclusion.
    Anyways this could lead to some cards I did not test working for any strange reason even if they shouldn't.

    Well since the guide is progressing well I will list at foot of the clue support section all cards that I tested and do not work with clues.

    If a card cant be catalogued as working with clues based on what I wrote and not listed in the not working section it will most likely do not work with clues.
    I'll try to keep the list up to date.

    As always any help is appreciated.
  • Reaganstorme
    Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Yeah, that works too. Thanks for this.

    icon_e_smile.gif
  • jimilinho_
    jimilinho_ Posts: 292
    Morphis wrote:
    Reaganstorme wrote:
    You need a "Clues do not count as supports" section also.

    As per our discussions previously.
    Well I could include in the current one(making it to CLUES ARE SUPPORTS....?)

    At this very moment I was trying to see if I can just list all the cases where they do count so I can say at the end "for any other interaction clues do not count as support".

    So clues do get buffed by tezz's first ability, just tested it myself
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    jimilinho_ wrote:
    Morphis wrote:
    Reaganstorme wrote:
    You need a "Clues do not count as supports" section also.

    As per our discussions previously.
    Well I could include in the current one(making it to CLUES ARE SUPPORTS....?)

    At this very moment I was trying to see if I can just list all the cases where they do count so I can say at the end "for any other interaction clues do not count as support".

    So clues do get buffed by tezz's first ability, just tested it myself
    Not going to be that useful in itself but worth mentioning.
    Thanks
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you hit your opponent with a lifelinking creature and Hixus is in play, you don't gain life.

    Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    shteev wrote:
    If you hit your opponent with a lifelinking creature and Hixus is in play, you don't gain life.

    Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
    Oh well...
    That's totally unexpected.
    So basically the order is damage -> hixus -> heal(not hearing cause hixus already kicked).

    Will add to disabled section, thanks.
  • Monk
    Monk Posts: 23
    Yeah I guess it's related to the fact you don't recover any HP on a game final hit. When you achieve the opponent planeswalker with life link attack ,you won't recover.
    I suppose this event and Hixus' prevent all other events from being triggered... Which is strange because in case the creature with life link is dies at fight, you'll recover...
  • Irgy
    Irgy Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
    alextfish wrote:
    Oh, you might also mention that the game does have a graveyard, it's just invisible; and it does have a library, which is also invisible. The library is initially created containing 4 of each card in your deck. When the library is emptied, or something (Gather the Pack, Seek the Wilds) searches deeper than the bottom of the library, another 4 of each card are shuffled and added to the bottom of it. This clears up several confusing things.

    Are you sure of this? I'm almost certain I've seen 5 copies of a card before seeing 4 copies of everything else (and this is just drawing cards normally no deep searching/fetching in the deck).
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Irgy wrote:
    alextfish wrote:
    Oh, you might also mention that the game does have a graveyard, it's just invisible; and it does have a library, which is also invisible. The library is initially created containing 4 of each card in your deck. When the library is emptied, or something (Gather the Pack, Seek the Wilds) searches deeper than the bottom of the library, another 4 of each card are shuffled and added to the bottom of it. This clears up several confusing things.

    Are you sure of this? I'm almost certain I've seen 5 copies of a card before seeing 4 copies of everything else (and this is just drawing cards normally no deep searching/fetching in the deck).
    As wrote in the first post there are 4 copies.

    Assuming your memory is correct(no fetch, more than 4 copies) there are still explanations for it:

    - you did not see it played cause of discard.
    - the card was held in hand by ai.
    - card was bounced somewhere along the lines or got back in hand through recur effects or special card skill.

    To be honest though we are talking about FORTY cards here.
    I would doubt my memory about it unless I was playing specifically testing for that.
  • Irgy
    Irgy Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
    Morphis wrote:
    Irgy wrote:
    alextfish wrote:
    Oh, you might also mention that the game does have a graveyard, it's just invisible; and it does have a library, which is also invisible. The library is initially created containing 4 of each card in your deck. When the library is emptied, or something (Gather the Pack, Seek the Wilds) searches deeper than the bottom of the library, another 4 of each card are shuffled and added to the bottom of it. This clears up several confusing things.

    Are you sure of this? I'm almost certain I've seen 5 copies of a card before seeing 4 copies of everything else (and this is just drawing cards normally no deep searching/fetching in the deck).
    As wrote in the first post there are 4 copies.

    Assuming your memory is correct(no fetch, more than 4 copies) there are still explanations for it:

    - you did not see it played cause of discard.
    - the card was held in hand by ai.
    - card was bounced somewhere along the lines or got back in hand through recur effects or special card skill.

    To be honest though we are talking about FORTY cards here.
    I would doubt my memory about it unless I was playing specifically testing for that.

    Still not sure how you know yourself, which was the main reason I was asking, but...

    I did in fact play specifically testing for it, and not just did I fail to disprove it but I'm fairly sure* I saw the full 40 with exactly 4 of each card one of those times, and the odds of that happening are actually very low (even though it's technically the most likely single outcome under my model as well). So at this point I'd believe it, even if you told me you actually just made the whole thing up (which I don't imagine you would have)!

    So yes, I think I actually just remembered drawing a whole lot of copies of the same card (myself) many times, where "a whole lot of copies" was only actually 4.

    * I say fairly sure because by my written count there were two cards still on 3-copies when I started seeing the second deck, but I also knew I'd missed a couple of cards.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    Irgy, no need for the testing. Here's how we knew about it.
    Re: Sylvan Messenger
  • sunprincess
    sunprincess Posts: 22 Just Dropped In
    Monk wrote:
    Yeah I guess it's related to the fact you don't recover any HP on a game final hit. When you achieve the opponent planeswalker with life link attack ,you won't recover.
    I suppose this event and Hixus' prevent all other events from being triggered... Which is strange because in case the creature with life link is dies at fight, you'll recover...

    Well, for one, Hixus would only trigger if a card deals damage to a player.

    To determine exactly how ordering works in that scenario, for a card to die while attacking, and also deal damage, we would need a trample lifelink creature to attack a defending creature, deal damage greater than the defender's toughness, and also take enough damage to die to that creature, while hixus was on the field.

    Until then, I would say that it means that there are at least two possible instances for effects after which all creatures deal combat damage, before a creature dies.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Also about the copies reported, i forgot that it could also be due to effect that put card back in the library like gone missing and especially days undoing.

    To be honest, most of other possible explanation would be bug and thus not concerning this guide.
  • Reaganstorme
    Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Received some clarification from JC in this thread that Clues are not meant to trigger cards such as Sigil of the Empty Throne as they are summoned rather than cast.
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    Reaganstorme wrote:
    Received some clarification from JC in this thread that Clues are not meant to trigger cards such as Sigil of the Empty Throne as they are summoned rather than cast.

    This is highly similar to the original magic the gathering's game difference between "cast" and "create" (a token). Because tokens are simply created instead of being cast from hand, it's normal that no effects related to casting support spells will trigger (though the game visually presents the two actions highly similar).
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Been a long time I updated this thread.

    At this very moment looks like clues no longer trigger effects that occur "when a support is casted".
    Servos(fabricate buffs) instead do.

    Based on JC words servos should not and its most likely a bug.
    They patched the clues instead of making a change that would effectively distinguish between "cast" and "put into play".

    As always they go for the fast shortsighted fix instead of good forward-looking solution.

    Anyways not going to add servos to the list to remove it when fixed.... Take in mind at this moment they count as support being cast.

    Of course both count as support being destroyed when they get destroyed.

    Edit: blightcaster still working with clues(and servos).
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Morphis wrote:
    jimilinho_ wrote:
    Morphis wrote:
    Rootbreaker wrote:
    When you steal a creature with a spell, it triggers enter play effects and cast a spell effects of the creature you stole.

    If you steal a creature until end of turn, and it dies before you give it back, your opponent will still be the one to benefit from its die trigger, and unlike permanent stealing, it goes to their graveyard.
    Thanks for this, updating

    I found this out when I cast Exert Influence on a forgotten Creation and got to watch my loaded hand hit the bin!
    To me the enter the battlefield triggering on steal creature has always been a bug.
    Since is a thing likely to occur and most could not know about it I will add it even if I think it is a bug after all(but has been reported ages ago so... Could even be left as mechanic....?)

    Related to this, I find that if you steal a creature until the end of turn, when it returns to its owner's control it will trigger any enter the battlefield effects again. For example, Abbot of Keral Keep will destroy a block of 5x5 gems, and Olivia will discard a card to become even bigger. The creatures will not have that trigger, however, when they move to your control, only when they're returned at the end of turn. Possibly another bug in the game, but worth noting.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    @wereotter: what you described was already in the guide.
    You probably missed it icon_e_wink.gif

    Thanks anyways
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Morphis wrote:
    @wereotter: what you described was already in the guide.
    You probably missed it icon_e_wink.gif

    Thanks anyways

    I caught that they trigger with a permanent steal effect like Exert Influence, but not that they don't trigger for you and do trigger a second time for your opponent with an effect like Turn Against, but long as it's in the guide, that's all that matters icon_e_smile.gif
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    wereotter wrote:
    Morphis wrote:
    @wereotter: what you described was already in the guide.
    You probably missed it icon_e_wink.gif

    Thanks anyways

    I caught that they trigger with a permanent steal effect like Exert Influence, but not that they don't trigger for you and do trigger a second time for your opponent with an effect like Turn Against, but long as it's in the guide, that's all that matters icon_e_smile.gif
    Honestly I think my layout was clear enough.
    In the permanent control creature point I say it triggers effect for you(the caster of control spell)
    After that in the temporary control creature I stay that it trigger again for new owner. That would assume it does not the same effect of permanent control.
    Anyways it's never bad to point it out more clearly so I update it now.

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