Game "not clear" mechanics/interactions compilation
Morphis
Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
Hi guys
Recently, and other times during my game experience, there were times when I would not be sure what to expect as a result of an action.
I think it could be useful to write here all mechanics/interactions where you think the result was different than what you expects or simply not totally clear in the first place.
This does not include stuff that is the result of something widely known as a bug.
I'll try to update this first post based on comments.
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Ok here goes the list:
GENERAL/UNCATALOGUED
Feel free to point out any interaction that felt "strange" to you.
Edit: reorganized with spoiler tags for better layout since it is becoming too big.
Recently, and other times during my game experience, there were times when I would not be sure what to expect as a result of an action.
I think it could be useful to write here all mechanics/interactions where you think the result was different than what you expects or simply not totally clear in the first place.
This does not include stuff that is the result of something widely known as a bug.
I'll try to update this first post based on comments.
————————————————————
Ok here goes the list:
GENERAL/UNCATALOGUED
- during deck building you choose 10 cards. A deck is generated with 4 copies of each one and you draw cards from this deck(even the starting cards in hand).
When the deck is empty a new 40 deck is generated with the same logic.
This is also done when a fetch effect cannot fetch the required card.
Sylvan messenger is the only exception so far where it can fail to fetch(probably a bug).
- tokens can't go to hand, graveyard or library. When they should they simply "die" instead, triggering any effect related to creature death/destruction.
For istance, a bounce scion gives mana to the owner.
REINFORCING/REPLACING
When the deck is empty a new 40 deck is generated with the same logic.
This is also done when a fetch effect cannot fetch the required card.
Sylvan messenger is the only exception so far where it can fail to fetch(probably a bug).
- tokens can't go to hand, graveyard or library. When they should they simply "die" instead, triggering any effect related to creature death/destruction.
For istance, a bounce scion gives mana to the owner.
- when a creature is reinforced and dies a number of copies is put in the graveyard equal to the times you reinforced +1.
Basically an amount of copies equal to the total you did cast in that slot befor it died. So I you cast 3 caustic caterpillar, it gets reinforced 2 times. Upon death 3 copies go in the graveyard.
- when a reinforced creature returns to hand or library, the additional copies go into the graveyard.
- when a creature is replaced by another one, the copies are put in the graveyard
(need confirmation that more than one copy in this case is put in graveyard if it was reinforced)
- when a creature is replaced it does not trigger any effect that is based on the creature death. Technically it does not die.
DISABLE/HEXPROOF/FIRST CREATURE AS TARGET
Basically an amount of copies equal to the total you did cast in that slot befor it died. So I you cast 3 caustic caterpillar, it gets reinforced 2 times. Upon death 3 copies go in the graveyard.
- when a reinforced creature returns to hand or library, the additional copies go into the graveyard.
- when a creature is replaced by another one, the copies are put in the graveyard
(need confirmation that more than one copy in this case is put in graveyard if it was reinforced)
- when a creature is replaced it does not trigger any effect that is based on the creature death. Technically it does not die.
- hixus. The following rules seem to apply when opponent has hixus in play
- effects that work on opponent's first creature do work on hexproof creatures as of patch 1.7
- if a disabled creature gains hexproof(like from Sphinx is the final word effect) it does not get enabled.
The disable does affect it normally until normal expiration.
Suppression bond for istance will last till support gets destroyed.
- when you reinforce a disabled creature, any effect that trigger when that creature enters the battlefield do not trigger
- if there is suppression bond or claustrophobia on field and opponent plays a creature that gets disabled by it, that creature will not trigger effect that happen when it enters the battlefield.
CONTROLLING CREATURES
- if a creature with lifelink deals damage when opponent has hixus in play the lifelink does not trigger.
- If a creature with renown deals damage renown still triggers and the creature is disabled afterwards.
- A creature with hexproof that deals damage to opponent will be disabled by hixus
- effects that work on opponent's first creature do work on hexproof creatures as of patch 1.7
- if a disabled creature gains hexproof(like from Sphinx is the final word effect) it does not get enabled.
The disable does affect it normally until normal expiration.
Suppression bond for istance will last till support gets destroyed.
- when you reinforce a disabled creature, any effect that trigger when that creature enters the battlefield do not trigger
- if there is suppression bond or claustrophobia on field and opponent plays a creature that gets disabled by it, that creature will not trigger effect that happen when it enters the battlefield.
- you cannot cast spells to gain control of creatures you already control.
In some cases you would like to be able to and some cards description do not clearly state "opponent creature", but for ALL control effects, you can only target creatures your opponent controls.
- if a creature gets permanently controlled and dies/returns to hand/returns lo library it goes to controller's graveyard/hand/library.
The controller is the player on which side the creature is currently.
A creature permanently controlled does also trigger any effect that happens when it enters the battlefield for the new owner.
- if a creature is temporarily controlled and it dies, any benefit the death grants is given to the original controller.
It is also put in the original controller's graveyard.
Unlike permanent control, a creature temporarily controlled does not trigger enter the battlefield effects for the new owner but it does trigger(again) those effects when it goes back to the field the original owner when the control ends.
- if a creature is permanently controlled after it generated "activate" gems, matching those gem will benefit(or damage) the original owner.
- temporary creature control allows to have more than 3 creature on the same side of the field.
ENTER THE BATTLEFIELD EFFECT TRIGGERING ORDER
In some cases you would like to be able to and some cards description do not clearly state "opponent creature", but for ALL control effects, you can only target creatures your opponent controls.
- if a creature gets permanently controlled and dies/returns to hand/returns lo library it goes to controller's graveyard/hand/library.
The controller is the player on which side the creature is currently.
A creature permanently controlled does also trigger any effect that happens when it enters the battlefield for the new owner.
- if a creature is temporarily controlled and it dies, any benefit the death grants is given to the original controller.
It is also put in the original controller's graveyard.
Unlike permanent control, a creature temporarily controlled does not trigger enter the battlefield effects for the new owner but it does trigger(again) those effects when it goes back to the field the original owner when the control ends.
- if a creature is permanently controlled after it generated "activate" gems, matching those gem will benefit(or damage) the original owner.
- temporary creature control allows to have more than 3 creature on the same side of the field.
- most(all? Not sure) effect that happen when a creature enters the battlefield work like it happen before the creature actually come into play.
This lead to the two following cases.
- creatures that gain benefit when another creature get in the battlefield, give benefit to themselves.
Veteran warleader is an example. When it gets in play he buffs himself.
- creature that give benefit to other creatures when they come in play, give benefit also to themselves.
Lieutenant Thalia is an example of this. When she gets into play she Gains +4/4.
2/2 is for the point before this one(because a human entered the field)
2/2 is because she gives 2/2 to all humans in play(she is human).
CLUES ARE SUPPORTS OR NOT?(featuring kaladesh servos)
This lead to the two following cases.
- if mirrorpool is in play and a creature that spawns other creatures is played, the creature spawned is the one reinforced, not the creature you played from hand.
- if you play a fleshbag marauder and with it you sacrifice an amalgam, the amalgam comes back in play even if there is not already an amalgam in the graveyard, meaning the amalgam that resurrects is basically the one sacrificed(order goes like sacrifice first then fleshbag comes into play triggering the amalgam reanimation skill)
- similarly if you play a forgotten creation and it causes you to discard an amalgam, the amalgam will come back in play even if there was no amalgam in the graveyard when you played the forgotten creation.
- creatures that gain benefit when another creature get in the battlefield, give benefit to themselves.
Veteran warleader is an example. When it gets in play he buffs himself.
- creature that give benefit to other creatures when they come in play, give benefit also to themselves.
Lieutenant Thalia is an example of this. When she gets into play she Gains +4/4.
2/2 is for the point before this one(because a human entered the field)
2/2 is because she gives 2/2 to all humans in play(she is human).
- clues are counted as support when they enter the field in these cases so far(other cases could exist):
- clues count in all iteration I tried so far, as "destroyed support" when destroyed/expire.
Some examples are:
- clues do count as support for any effect that is based on the number of supports in play.
This includes until now:
- for any other interaction clues do not seem to count as support.
Here is a list I will update with all card that I know do not work with clues:
- they grant mana reduction to tyrant
- they drain mana if oath of Jace is in play
- they deal damage if oath of Chandra is in play
- they trigger the -2/-2 malus if blightcaster is in play
- clues count in all iteration I tried so far, as "destroyed support" when destroyed/expire.
Some examples are:
- being brought back by seasons past.
- spawning humans with ulvenwald in play.
- they trigger daring sleuth's transformation.
- clues do count as support for any effect that is based on the number of supports in play.
This includes until now:
- helm of gods.
- tezzeret's third skill buff.
- tezzeret's first skill buffs clues.
- jace unraveler first skill mana gain
- for any other interaction clues do not seem to count as support.
Here is a list I will update with all card that I know do not work with clues:
- Jessian thief
- Thing in the ice
- Sigil of empty throne
- Blessed spirits
Feel free to point out any interaction that felt "strange" to you.
Edit: reorganized with spoiler tags for better layout since it is becoming too big.
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Comments
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Tokens and non-destroy removal have a whole set of weird interactions. You can attempt to "bounce" a token (return it to hand). This destroys it instead and triggers "dies" effects. But most bounce spells will still only let you target a token if the opponent has 5 or fewer cards in hand.
Top-of-library effects are even more confusing. Roil Spout can't target a token at all, but apparently Gone Missing can?
Many spells that you might like to use on your own Zada, Hedron Grinder actually secretly have hidden "an opponent controls" conditions. This includes Turn Against (which doesn't say "opponent controls" like Act of Treason does). You can't even cast Processor Assault unless there's a void gem on the board. You can't even cast Cruel Revival unless there's a Zombie in your graveyard.
Creatures that have summoning sickness don't actually count as disabled, though they have the exact same animation effect on them as disabled creatures do. So you can't use Roil's Retribution, Swift Reckoning etc on freshly-summoned creatures.
When Runaway Carriage is blocked by a first striker, it only loses prevent damage after the first strike damage step! This might be a bug though.0 -
Oh, you might also mention that the game does have a graveyard, it's just invisible; and it does have a library, which is also invisible. The library is initially created containing 4 of each card in your deck. When the library is emptied, or something (Gather the Pack, Seek the Wilds) searches deeper than the bottom of the library, another 4 of each card are shuffled and added to the bottom of it. This clears up several confusing things.0
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The graveyard is a "bad documented and badly implemented" but I don't think it belongs in this topic.alextfish wrote:Oh, you might also mention that the game does have a graveyard, it's just invisible; and it does have a library, which is also invisible. The library is initially created containing 4 of each card in your deck. When the library is emptied, or something (Gather the Pack, Seek the Wilds) searches deeper than the bottom of the library, another 4 of each card are shuffled and added to the bottom of it. This clears up several confusing things.
It's working bad, but it's working as one would expect
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Some good points made here:alextfish wrote:Tokens and non-destroy removal have a whole set of weird interactions. You can attempt to "bounce" a token (return it to hand). This destroys it instead and triggers "dies" effects. But most bounce spells will still only let you target a token if the opponent has 5 or fewer cards in hand.
Top-of-library effects are even more confusing. Roil Spout can't target a token at all, but apparently Gone Missing can?
Many spells that you might like to use on your own Zada, Hedron Grinder actually secretly have hidden "an opponent controls" conditions. This includes Turn Against (which doesn't say "opponent controls" like Act of Treason does). You can't even cast Processor Assault unless there's a void gem on the board. You can't even cast Cruel Revival unless there's a Zombie in your graveyard.
Creatures that have summoning sickness don't actually count as disabled, though they have the exact same animation effect on them as disabled creatures do. So you can't use Roil's Retribution, Swift Reckoning etc on freshly-summoned creatures.
When Runaway Carriage is blocked by a first striker, it only loses prevent damage after the first strike damage step! This might be a bug though.
- tokens. For paper players it is clear that tokens can't go to library, GY or hand. Since we cannot expect all people having paper experience I will add it.
For the "some require non token, some require 5 or less in hand" and similar, if the description states it(and i don't recall any working against the description) there is not problem.
- control creature is indeed to be added. If the card do not state opponent, it should be allowed on your creatures too.
- the sickness is more of a UI problem but I do not think that belongs in this topic.
Thanks all for sharing, updating.0 -
This is rather inconsistent. Diregraf Colossus (which works exactly the same way for Zombies) *used* to count himself (so he'd end up 5/5 if cast on an empty board), but that's just been changed and now he's 2/2 on an empty board. Has Thalia been changed, or is she just inconsistent?Morphis wrote:- creature that give benefit to other creatures when they come in play, give benefit also to themselves.
Lieutenant Thalia is an example of this. When she gets into play she Gains +4/4.
2/2 is for the point before this one(because a human entered the field)
2/2 is because she gives 2/2 to all humans in play(she is human).0 -
She works like always, diregraf is the only one different and has been stated to be a bug(I was told so in coalition chat).alextfish wrote:
This is rather inconsistent. Diregraf Colossus (which works exactly the same way for Zombies) *used* to count himself (so he'd end up 5/5 if cast on an empty board), but that's just been changed and now he's 2/2 on an empty board. Has Thalia been changed, or is she just inconsistent?Morphis wrote:- creature that give benefit to other creatures when they come in play, give benefit also to themselves.
Lieutenant Thalia is an example of this. When she gets into play she Gains +4/4.
2/2 is for the point before this one(because a human entered the field)
2/2 is because she gives 2/2 to all humans in play(she is human).0 -
It's not quite as simple as that. In paper MtG, tokens can be bounced, exiled, put into library etc; they just immediately cease to exist after they're bounced or whatever. If I bounce your token Squirrel, this will trigger "Whenever a creature is returned to its owner's hand" but *not* trigger "Whenever a creature dies".Morphis wrote:- tokens. For paper players it is clear that tokens can't go to library, GY or hand. Since we cannot expect all people having paper experience I will add it.
For the "some require non token, some require 5 or less in hand" and similar, if the description states it(and i don't recall any working against the description) there is not problem.
In Hearthstone, tokens become full cards; if I bounce your token Totem then it goes into your hand and you can play it like anything else.
MTGPQ isn't like either of these. If I target your token Squirrel with a bounce spell, instead of being bounced it will die, and trigger "Whenever a creature dies".
And then there's Roil Spout not being able to target tokens, which is either a flat-out bug, or an extremely "not clear mechanic".0 -
Yes I didn't want to go too much in details cause this is puzzle quest not paperalextfish wrote:
It's not quite as simple as that. In paper MtG, tokens can be bounced, exiled, put into library etc; they just immediately cease to exist after they're bounced or whatever. If I bounce your token Squirrel, this will trigger "Whenever a creature is returned to its owner's hand" but *not* trigger "Whenever a creature dies".Morphis wrote:- tokens. For paper players it is clear that tokens can't go to library, GY or hand. Since we cannot expect all people having paper experience I will add it.
For the "some require non token, some require 5 or less in hand" and similar, if the description states it(and i don't recall any working against the description) there is not problem.
In Hearthstone, tokens become full cards; if I bounce your token Totem then it goes into your hand and you can play it like anything else.
MTGPQ isn't like either of these. If I target your token Squirrel with a bounce spell, instead of being bounced it will die, and trigger "Whenever a creature dies".
And then there's Roil Spout not being able to target tokens, which is either a flat-out bug, or an extremely "not clear mechanic".
Roil spout I did not remember well the description.
So it should bounce tokens.
Since other bounce effects can bounce token i think we can assume it is a bug with roil spout.0 -
Got another one: When someone steals a creature using Exert Influence, Welcome to the Fold etc, when it dies it goes to *their graveyard not yours*. So *they* can get it back with Liliana's ultimate, and you can't. Different to how most CCGs work.0
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Was already added(with return to hand and library case too).alextfish wrote:Got another one: When someone steals a creature using Exert Influence, Welcome to the Fold etc, when it dies it goes to *their graveyard not yours*. So *they* can get it back with Liliana's ultimate, and you can't. Different to how most CCGs work.
Thanks anyways
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When you steal a creature with a spell, it triggers enter play effects and cast a spell effects of the creature you stole.
If you steal a creature until end of turn, and it dies before you give it back, your opponent will still be the one to benefit from its die trigger, and unlike permanent stealing, it goes to their graveyard.0 -
Thanks for this, updatingRootbreaker wrote:When you steal a creature with a spell, it triggers enter play effects and cast a spell effects of the creature you stole.
If you steal a creature until end of turn, and it dies before you give it back, your opponent will still be the one to benefit from its die trigger, and unlike permanent stealing, it goes to their graveyard.0 -
Morphis wrote:
Thanks for this, updatingRootbreaker wrote:When you steal a creature with a spell, it triggers enter play effects and cast a spell effects of the creature you stole.
If you steal a creature until end of turn, and it dies before you give it back, your opponent will still be the one to benefit from its die trigger, and unlike permanent stealing, it goes to their graveyard.
I found this out when I cast Exert Influence on a forgotten Creation and got to watch my loaded hand hit the bin!0 -
To me the enter the battlefield triggering on steal creature has always been a bug.jimilinho_ wrote:Morphis wrote:
Thanks for this, updatingRootbreaker wrote:When you steal a creature with a spell, it triggers enter play effects and cast a spell effects of the creature you stole.
If you steal a creature until end of turn, and it dies before you give it back, your opponent will still be the one to benefit from its die trigger, and unlike permanent stealing, it goes to their graveyard.
I found this out when I cast Exert Influence on a forgotten Creation and got to watch my loaded hand hit the bin!
Since is a thing likely to occur and most could not know about it I will add it even if I think it is a bug after all(but has been reported ages ago so... Could even be left as mechanic....?)0 -
Morphis wrote:clues are counted as support when they enter the field only in these cases so far(other cases could exist):
• they grant mana reduction to tyrant
I think I've seen oath of gideon provide a reduction of 5 to tyrant, one for the support, and one for each of the 4 creature tokens.0 -
Yes and that's the expected behavior since you did cast one support and did put in play 4 creatures.knthrak wrote:Morphis wrote:clues are counted as support when they enter the field only in these cases so far(other cases could exist):
• they grant mana reduction to tyrant
I think I've seen oath of gideon provide a reduction of 5 to tyrant, one for the support, and one for each of the 4 creature tokens.
So in the end it does not belong in this topic.
The other 2 cards with similar effect(crush of tentacle and bushwacker) do not gain mana reduction from token creatures.
I reported it in the bug forum since based on the description those two are bugged(while tyrant is working as intended instead).0 -
Clues trigger the effect of Blightcaster which gives -2/-2 until end of turn to the opponent's first creature. A Tamiyo's Journal paired with Blightcaster can keep minor enemies off the field automatically.0
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K updating, thankssageofhalo451 wrote:Clues trigger the effect of Blightcaster which gives -2/-2 until end of turn to the opponent's first creature. A Tamiyo's Journal paired with Blightcaster can keep minor enemies off the field automatically.0 -
You need a "Clues do not count as supports" section also.
As per our discussions previously.0 -
Well I could include in the current one(making it to CLUES ARE SUPPORTS....?)Reaganstorme wrote:You need a "Clues do not count as supports" section also.
As per our discussions previously.
At this very moment I was trying to see if I can just list all the cases where they do count so I can say at the end "for any other interaction clues do not count as support".0
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