I'm not buying shields. Ever.

JeffCascadian

I recognize the need for shields to place highly in PVP but since I'm not a strong PVP player that doesn't apply to me. I'll keep saving my Hero Points for slots.

revskip

Finally hit my first 1k progression reward. Took 3 shields but totally worth it since ultimately if my top 25 holds it will really only have cost 125 HP after the HP I got from the event.

I don't usually shield for PVP and rarely shoot for higher than the 650 token or at most the 3* cover at 800 with one shield but now that I see it is possible I might start trying more often when I have the essential and two featured 3* champed.

We_are_Venom

VA5 wrote:

Funny you reply keep whales in whales bracket. As a player with champed 5's I think it is **** that for the first 700 puts of pvp every team I encounter is at that level. Unfortunately most are friends. This is the only game that "punishes" players for scaling up. And what do I get for beating these teams, yes the same rewards you get. And yes I do shield.

My post is not anti whale, but I do think they should do a better job of segmenting the players based on roster composition. I'm sure it's not worth the devs time and money to create a better system, that's the problem.
I agree with you that you shouldn't be punished for having a crazy good roster, but I don't think the answer is allowing you to demolish people that have no chance to win.
If it were my game I would create a system that matches based on what team is fielded. No picking and choosing opponents, either, it would all be setup automatically. Create a team, and get matched to another team based on level/* type that is the most similar that can be found. Someone that wants to use all 5* gets matched with other teams of near level 5*'s, same goes for any other level/combination. Yes I'm sure it's difficult to do, but it's what I would do.

morph3us

I think most people in here are in agreement with you about there being a need for a league or tiered PvP system, albeit for varying reasons. For me, it's about the rewards being commensurate with the amount of effort being put in, and being commensurate with the roster.

I don't think you'll ever avoid the necessity to buy shields, however. Waaaay back, when 4*s sucked (XFW and IW were it, and they were terrible trophies), and it was all about 2*s and 3*s, there was a time when you couldn't buy shields. If anyone managed to get anywhere near even 600 points, the pack behind would bring them back down to the mean. PvP basically became all about who could play in the final hour of an event, and scrape the highest point total possible, because everyone could beat anyone else. Even if you were paired with equivalent rosters only, this is the reality without shields.

The shielding structure is arranged such that the devs are giving you free shields in each event via progression rewards. If you're in a T250 alliance, you're getting a free 8 hour shield via HP rewards up to 725 points.

The other thing to bear in mind is that people who are shielding are generating points in the slice via shield bounces. You wouldn't even be able to reach 900-1000 point progressions without people shielding earlier in the event so people can bounce off them.

Alsmir

Average level of my top 3 characters is around 100. I have a total of 4 2* champs.

In PvP every now and then I will see someone with similar characters, but most of the time I'm against guys with 3* champs or better. I'm quite used to seeing enemies with 5* characters.

That is some extraordinary matchmaking, good job.

atomzed

We_are_Venom wrote:

If it were my game I would create a system that matches based on what team is fielded. No picking and choosing opponents, either, it would all be setup automatically. Create a team, and get matched to another team based on level/* type that is the most similar that can be found. Someone that wants to use all 5* gets matched with other teams of near level 5*'s, same goes for any other level/combination. Yes I'm sure it's difficult to do, but it's what I would do.

If you do not already know, something like this is already in place. If a player is using high level 5*, they will not be seen by other players without the 5*. This is most obvious when they are unshielded, and players in the same leaderboard will not be able to target them at all.

Similarly, for very low level players (2* team), they cannot be targeted by higher players at all, until they reach a high point threshold level of 800-1000. That is when they are visible to all, and will be hit very hard.

Alsmir

atomzed wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

If it were my game I would create a system that matches based on what team is fielded. No picking and choosing opponents, either, it would all be setup automatically. Create a team, and get matched to another team based on level/* type that is the most similar that can be found. Someone that wants to use all 5* gets matched with other teams of near level 5*'s, same goes for any other level/combination. Yes I'm sure it's difficult to do, but it's what I would do.

If you do not already know, something like this is already in place. If a player is using high level 5*, they will not be seen by other players without the 5*. This is most obvious when they are unshielded, and players in the same leaderboard will not be able to target them at all.

Similarly, for very low level players (2* team), they cannot be targeted by higher players at all, until they reach a high point threshold level of 800-1000. That is when they are visible to all, and will be hit very hard.

That's funny, because yesterday I've reached amazing 300 points and then I was beaten by 3 players with 5* characters. I didn't loose many points (37 total) because they also had low progression.
(My top 3 characters are 2*)

atomzed

Alsmir wrote:

atomzed wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

If it were my game I would create a system that matches based on what team is fielded. No picking and choosing opponents, either, it would all be setup automatically. Create a team, and get matched to another team based on level/* type that is the most similar that can be found. Someone that wants to use all 5* gets matched with other teams of near level 5*'s, same goes for any other level/combination. Yes I'm sure it's difficult to do, but it's what I would do.

If you do not already know, something like this is already in place. If a player is using high level 5*, they will not be seen by other players without the 5*. This is most obvious when they are unshielded, and players in the same leaderboard will not be able to target them at all.

Similarly, for very low level players (2* team), they cannot be targeted by higher players at all, until they reach a high point threshold level of 800-1000. That is when they are visible to all, and will be hit very hard.

That's funny, because yesterday I've reached amazing 300 points and then I was beaten by 3 players with 5* characters. I didn't loose many points (37 total) because they also had low progression.
(My top 3 characters are 2*)

If you start too early, when there are not a lot of points in the shard, then you will have cross the points threshold, and you can be seen by everyone.

For example if the leaderboard number 1 has 200 points (say during the first hour of the pvp), if you even have 120 poings, you will be "seen by everyone". Which means that even 5* can target you.

A similar situation occurs when a 2* climbs too high. Say a 2* player plays hard and cross the 1000 points threshold. Prior to that, A player with 5* like me won't be able to see the 2* player at all. But when they cross the threshold I will see them in my queue, and because he is such easy prey, he will be stomped hard.

Note, the numbers I mentioned are just estimate, it seems to be dynamic in nature and is derived from the total points in the system and the leaders board.

A good pvp player will have to navigate around these "points threshold" gates to maximise their point gains. If you push too much beyond your natural gates, you often end up getting hit very quickly.

h4n1s

atomzed wrote:

A similar situation occurs when a 2* climbs too high. Say a 2* player plays hard and cross the 1000 points threshold. Prior to that, A player with 5* like me won't be able to see the 2* player at all. But when they cross the threshold I will see them in my queue, and because he is such easy prey, he will be stomped hard.

and that suggests how the game is broken, especially when you are queued by many... I am still wondering why there are no more seed teams (AI) with higher points (and higher lvled rosters), to avoid this particularly 'unfair' MMR behavior.

Alsmir

atomzed wrote:

Alsmir wrote:

atomzed wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

If it were my game I would create a system that matches based on what team is fielded. No picking and choosing opponents, either, it would all be setup automatically. Create a team, and get matched to another team based on level/* type that is the most similar that can be found. Someone that wants to use all 5* gets matched with other teams of near level 5*'s, same goes for any other level/combination. Yes I'm sure it's difficult to do, but it's what I would do.

If you do not already know, something like this is already in place. If a player is using high level 5*, they will not be seen by other players without the 5*. This is most obvious when they are unshielded, and players in the same leaderboard will not be able to target them at all.

Similarly, for very low level players (2* team), they cannot be targeted by higher players at all, until they reach a high point threshold level of 800-1000. That is when they are visible to all, and will be hit very hard.

That's funny, because yesterday I've reached amazing 300 points and then I was beaten by 3 players with 5* characters. I didn't loose many points (37 total) because they also had low progression.
(My top 3 characters are 2*)

If you start too early, when there are not a lot of points in the shard, then you will have cross the points threshold, and you can be seen by everyone.

For example if the leaderboard number 1 has 200 points (say during the first hour of the pvp), if you even have 120 poings, you will be "seen by everyone". Which means that even 5* can target you.

A similar situation occurs when a 2* climbs too high. Say a 2* player plays hard and cross the 1000 points threshold. Prior to that, A player with 5* like me won't be able to see the 2* player at all. But when they cross the threshold I will see them in my queue, and because he is such easy prey, he will be stomped hard.

Note, the numbers I mentioned are just estimate, it seems to be dynamic in nature and is derived from the total points in the system and the leaders board.

A good pvp player will have to navigate around these "points threshold" gates to maximise their point gains. If you push too much beyond your natural gates, you often end up getting hit very quickly.

Number 1 was slightly over 800, then there were a bunch of people at 600+.

Any other advice?

ZootSax

Alsmir wrote:

Number 1 was slightly over 800, then there were a bunch of people at 600+.

Any other advice?

I've finally gotten to the point where I can champion 3*'s, but I spent much of the past 6 months on the 2-->3 transition. Most of the 5* characters I would face in PVP back then only had a single cover (my first 5* came from championing a 3*, so when I was a 2* player I never had any 5*'s of my own to affect my MMR). Quite a few players with 2* (or less) rosters could run two 1-cover 5*'s with the loaner in PVP, which is pretty brutal against a ~level 100 roster--especially if you have to use the loaner 3*.

My best advice to you is try fighting 5* characters as often as you can to learn how hard they hit and what their powers do (reading them on the forum is one thing; facing them is something else). Unfortunately, 5* opponents will be a stable part of the foreseeable future in PVP for everyone with 2*'s and above. There are double the 5* characters now than when I was in your position, but for me the hardest two single-cover 5*'s to face with a largely 2* roster were yellow Logan (regen) and blue Surfer (stun-proof) (I would imagine Iron Man's blue to be a tough one as well, potentially, due to its ability to case cascades and "free' red matches). You really need to hit hard and clear out the non-5*'s quickly. Stormneto is still one of the best 2* teams out there, but you need to make sure Storm tanks no more than 1 color against 5*'s, since her health is so low. If you have a usable Kamala Khan, she can help out quite a bit with her heal at the cost of having longer matches. Otherwise, stunning is always your friend. Even 2* Cap can pull you through once you get going. Because match damage is often a bigger threat than abilities for low-covered 5*'s, OBW is less of an asset as usual in my experience unless you can get her some big strike tiles to use. Even then, you probably don't want her tanking more than 1-2 colors, with one of those colors being purple or blue.

Who are your best 2*'s and do you have any decently-covered 3*'s? Having a decently covered Deadpool really helped me get my 2* & 3* characters to ~level 120 (his red was cheap and hard-hitting, plus his black protected lower health characters and limited my health pack needs to fewer characters). Once you have a good number of characters at ~level 120-130, the minimal cover 5*'s somehow seem more manageable.

Good luck and hope this helped a little.

jobob

Your roster, for the most part, dictates the point total that you can naturally reach without a shield. Then things like battle chat and the use of shields allow you to climb above that.

The highest I've ever hit without a shield is a little over 3k. I could've pushed higher with shields but didn't care to.

I don't see the issue with the shields... You can use them to punch above your weight class or you can score where your roster and skill naturally takes you. It seems like a fair enough choice to me.

atomzed

h4n1s wrote:

atomzed wrote:

A similar situation occurs when a 2* climbs too high. Say a 2* player plays hard and cross the 1000 points threshold. Prior to that, A player with 5* like me won't be able to see the 2* player at all. But when they cross the threshold I will see them in my queue, and because he is such easy prey, he will be stomped hard.

and that suggests how the game is broken, especially when you are queued by many... I am still wondering why there are no more seed teams (AI) with higher points (and higher lvled rosters), to avoid this particularly 'unfair' MMR behavior.

It depends on your definition of "fairness ". If you see fairness as "I should be able to rise high enough with *any* roster provided I play hard ", then yes the current pvp system is unfair.

But the current pvp system is not designed upon that definition.

The current pvp system is designed to play like a "King of the Hill". You climb as high as possible, when you reach beyond a certain level, you become an attractive target to everyone, and people starts ganging up on you. metaphorically, since there is usually no prior coordination between the people who hit you.

What naturally emerges is a survival of the fittest system. A natural order will arise, and people will get the points appropriate to their roster. Note that the "appropriate points level " differ with different pvp AND at different stages of the pvp. Example, try climbing to 2000 points in the sims on the first day, and it is very difficult even for someone with a 4* roster. But you try climbing on the 20th day, and it becomes much easier.

Shields is the "out" among the King of the Hill system. You can use it to punch beyond your weight class. If your natural points threshold is at 500 points, you can momentarily push to 700 or even 800 points. But the longer you stay beyond your weight class, the more likely you will experience the gang bang. Shields help you to prevent that.

I personally feel that the pvp system is incredibly elegant. This is from someone who has rise through the ranks... And played thru the 2*,3* and 4* transition.

ScrubJay

My work schedule doesn't really permit the whole "push to 900 and shield hop the rest of the way". I could do that on the weekend events but not on the Tuesday/Wednesday event. So I just join events in the last hour and get some easy 3* covers.

I currently have 10K HP due to having nothing to spend it on.

Alsmir

ZootSax wrote:

Alsmir wrote:

Number 1 was slightly over 800, then there were a bunch of people at 600+.

Any other advice?

I've finally gotten to the point where I can champion 3*'s, but I spent much of the past 6 months on the 2-->3 transition. Most of the 5* characters I would face in PVP back then only had a single cover (my first 5* came from championing a 3*, so when I was a 2* player I never had any 5*'s of my own to affect my MMR). Quite a few players with 2* (or less) rosters could run two 1-cover 5*'s with the loaner in PVP, which is pretty brutal against a ~level 100 roster--especially if you have to use the loaner 3*.

My best advice to you is try fighting 5* characters as often as you can to learn how hard they hit and what their powers do (reading them on the forum is one thing; facing them is something else). Unfortunately, 5* opponents will be a stable part of the foreseeable future in PVP for everyone with 2*'s and above. There are double the 5* characters now than when I was in your position, but for me the hardest two single-cover 5*'s to face with a largely 2* roster were yellow Logan (regen) and blue Surfer (stun-proof) (I would imagine Iron Man's blue to be a tough one as well, potentially, due to its ability to case cascades and "free' red matches). You really need to hit hard and clear out the non-5*'s quickly. Stormneto is still one of the best 2* teams out there, but you need to make sure Storm tanks no more than 1 color against 5*'s, since her health is so low. If you have a usable Kamala Khan, she can help out quite a bit with her heal at the cost of having longer matches. Otherwise, stunning is always your friend. Even 2* Cap can pull you through once you get going. Because match damage is often a bigger threat than abilities for low-covered 5*'s, OBW is less of an asset as usual in my experience unless you can get her some big strike tiles to use. Even then, you probably don't want her tanking more than 1-2 colors, with one of those colors being purple or blue.

Who are your best 2*'s and do you have any decently-covered 3*'s? Having a decently covered Deadpool really helped me get my 2* & 3* characters to ~level 120 (his red was cheap and hard-hitting, plus his black protected lower health characters and limited my health pack needs to fewer characters). Once you have a good number of characters at ~level 120-130, the minimal cover 5*'s somehow seem more manageable.

Good luck and hope this helped a little.

I have a 2* Thor at lvl 104, OBW at 101, 2* Storm at 96 and 2* Hawkeye at 95, the only decently developed 3* I have are: Kamala Khan (4/3/1) and Dr Doom (2/1/4).

Yes, I can handle some 5* with one cover and survive the match damage thanks to KK, but the fight will easily cost me 2 or 3 health packs. Even climbing to 300 points is painfull because sometimes I don't get any seed teams. Unless one of my guys gets boosted I'm f***ed.

revskip

Alsmir wrote:

ZootSax wrote:

Alsmir wrote:

Number 1 was slightly over 800, then there were a bunch of people at 600+.

Any other advice?

I've finally gotten to the point where I can champion 3*'s, but I spent much of the past 6 months on the 2-->3 transition. Most of the 5* characters I would face in PVP back then only had a single cover (my first 5* came from championing a 3*, so when I was a 2* player I never had any 5*'s of my own to affect my MMR). Quite a few players with 2* (or less) rosters could run two 1-cover 5*'s with the loaner in PVP, which is pretty brutal against a ~level 100 roster--especially if you have to use the loaner 3*.

My best advice to you is try fighting 5* characters as often as you can to learn how hard they hit and what their powers do (reading them on the forum is one thing; facing them is something else). Unfortunately, 5* opponents will be a stable part of the foreseeable future in PVP for everyone with 2*'s and above. There are double the 5* characters now than when I was in your position, but for me the hardest two single-cover 5*'s to face with a largely 2* roster were yellow Logan (regen) and blue Surfer (stun-proof) (I would imagine Iron Man's blue to be a tough one as well, potentially, due to its ability to case cascades and "free' red matches). You really need to hit hard and clear out the non-5*'s quickly. Stormneto is still one of the best 2* teams out there, but you need to make sure Storm tanks no more than 1 color against 5*'s, since her health is so low. If you have a usable Kamala Khan, she can help out quite a bit with her heal at the cost of having longer matches. Otherwise, stunning is always your friend. Even 2* Cap can pull you through once you get going. Because match damage is often a bigger threat than abilities for low-covered 5*'s, OBW is less of an asset as usual in my experience unless you can get her some big strike tiles to use. Even then, you probably don't want her tanking more than 1-2 colors, with one of those colors being purple or blue.

Who are your best 2*'s and do you have any decently-covered 3*'s? Having a decently covered Deadpool really helped me get my 2* & 3* characters to ~level 120 (his red was cheap and hard-hitting, plus his black protected lower health characters and limited my health pack needs to fewer characters). Once you have a good number of characters at ~level 120-130, the minimal cover 5*'s somehow seem more manageable.

Good luck and hope this helped a little.

I have a 2* Thor at lvl 104, OBW at 101, 2* Storm at 96 and 2* Hawkeye at 95, the only decently developed 3* I have are: Kamala Khan (4/3/1) and Dr Doom (2/1/4).

Yes, I can handle some 5* with one cover and survive the match damage thanks to KK, but the fight will easily cost me 2 or 3 health packs. Even climbing to 300 points is painfull because sometimes I don't get any seed teams. Unless one of my guys gets boosted I'm f***ed.

The trick that always gets me seed teams is to be there exactly when the event opens. If the start time is 1pm I set a phone alarm for 12:58pm and then wait for the timer to hit 0 and immediately click on the event. I usually get a full group of seed teams that way but worst case get at least three.

We_are_Venom

Omega Red wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

For the skilled player, shields are a resource to score above his roster level and meet goals. For everyone else it's just a money grab.

Shirely you can't be serious. It's a match 3 game, not the Masters. Try whaling your way into the NFL, which requires actual skill, and see how far you get.

*It reads aggressive, not intended to be.

It doesn't matter how simple the rules or the gameplay are, if you want to succeed at high levels you need to know and understand the finer points of strategy. "Skills" can be intellectual, no just athletic feats.

A large factor of the game is "random". I understand your point, I just wouldn't go so far as to assign any high level of skill to it, anymore than I would roulette or ****.

atomzed

We_are_Venom wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

We_are_Venom wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

For the skilled player, shields are a resource to score above his roster level and meet goals. For everyone else it's just a money grab.

Shirely you can't be serious. It's a match 3 game, not the Masters. Try whaling your way into the NFL, which requires actual skill, and see how far you get.

*It reads aggressive, not intended to be.

It doesn't matter how simple the rules or the gameplay are, if you want to succeed at high levels you need to know and understand the finer points of strategy. "Skills" can be intellectual, no just athletic feats.

A large factor of the game is "random". I understand your point, I just wouldn't go so far as to assign any high level of skill to it, anymore than I would roulette or ****.

Players who consistently punch above their weight are able to make the game less random for them.

Since you don't want to learn the intricacies of the game, erm, well that's a shame.

We_are_Venom

Players who consistently punch above their weight are able to make the game less random for them.

Since you don't want to learn the intricacies of the game, erm, well that's a shame.

Actually the feedback in the thread has softened my stance quite a bit. Lots of people, on both sides really, have made really good arguments. I'm not wholly dead set against them as I was.

atomzed

We_are_Venom wrote:

Players who consistently punch above their weight are able to make the game less random for them.

Since you don't want to learn the intricacies of the game, erm, well that's a shame.

Actually the feedback in the thread has softened my stance quite a bit. Lots of people, on both sides really, have made really good arguments. I'm not wholly dead set against them as I was.

That's good to hear!

My suggestion is to get involved in a BC, or get into an alliance who is familiar with the intricacies, and learn from them. I know there are forum posts that give tips and advice, but for real time "consultation ", real time chat is still better.

My experience with shields is largely positive, as long as I have realistic expectations of my own threshold points. In fact some of the best experiences I have with the game, was when I shield hop successfully, and hitting the progression rewards that were beyond my threshold points.