MMR at 450 (and lack of diversity)
Comments
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laughingMAN wrote:There's a weird tangential issue on the other side of the spectrum too. As more and more of the older player base transitions into the all 5* MMR, they are being removed from the lower MMR. Hitting 1300 used to be pretty easy for me, but more and more these days the climb to 1300 pts is becoming a desert of low point targets. I mean, I can see unshielded people at the top of my bracket, but they're all running 450 OML / Phoenix combos so I can't target them. It seems to matter less and less what time slice I choose now too (which was my old solution to this issue).
This is a really weird problem to have. Basically, the game is becoming more difficult for every reason other than the actual gameplay.
It's because (as Aes always says) they keep insisting that everyone play in the same pool, for the same prizes. It's NEVER going to work. The game needed to be tiered off before 5*s were even conceived, let alone implemented. At this point, I really don't see how anything else can reverse the spiral.0 -
tanis3303 wrote:laughingMAN wrote:There's a weird tangential issue on the other side of the spectrum too. As more and more of the older player base transitions into the all 5* MMR, they are being removed from the lower MMR. Hitting 1300 used to be pretty easy for me, but more and more these days the climb to 1300 pts is becoming a desert of low point targets. I mean, I can see unshielded people at the top of my bracket, but they're all running 450 OML / Phoenix combos so I can't target them. It seems to matter less and less what time slice I choose now too (which was my old solution to this issue).
This is a really weird problem to have. Basically, the game is becoming more difficult for every reason other than the actual gameplay.
It's because (as Aes always says) they keep insisting that everyone play in the same pool, for the same prizes. It's NEVER going to work. The game needed to be tiered off before 5*s were even conceived, let alone implemented. At this point, I really don't see how anything else can reverse the spiral.
To late to reverse it, but it's not too late for them to address it. Tiered event levels with higher prizes as you go up would fix most of the game issues but the devs really don't seem to have much interest in resolving the issue. If they do, they continue to fail at communicating with us. Heck, have they even acknowledged it's an issue?0 -
RWTDBurn wrote:tanis3303 wrote:laughingMAN wrote:There's a weird tangential issue on the other side of the spectrum too. As more and more of the older player base transitions into the all 5* MMR, they are being removed from the lower MMR. Hitting 1300 used to be pretty easy for me, but more and more these days the climb to 1300 pts is becoming a desert of low point targets. I mean, I can see unshielded people at the top of my bracket, but they're all running 450 OML / Phoenix combos so I can't target them. It seems to matter less and less what time slice I choose now too (which was my old solution to this issue).
This is a really weird problem to have. Basically, the game is becoming more difficult for every reason other than the actual gameplay.
It's because (as Aes always says) they keep insisting that everyone play in the same pool, for the same prizes. It's NEVER going to work. The game needed to be tiered off before 5*s were even conceived, let alone implemented. At this point, I really don't see how anything else can reverse the spiral.
To late to reverse it, but it's not too late for them to address it. Tiered event levels with higher prizes as you go up would fix most of the game issues but the devs really don't seem to have much interest in resolving the issue. If they do, they continue to fail at communicating with us. Heck, have they even acknowledged it's an issue?
While tiered events seem like an interesting idea. Do any of us here actually know how many people are playing right now in each slice?
If you divide that in half will that further diminish the available targets? And would that be the end of alliances?
Also, where is the dividing line. Between 3* and 4*? A 5* only bracket would likely have no takers since anyone with top 5* probably also has all of the 4* champed and will dominate there as well.0 -
A quick change would fix the MMR ...
You get matched to people according to the team you choose.
So if I pick a 3* team I only get matched against equivalent 3* teams.
Pick a 3 */3*/4* and you get equivalent teams.
Its not perfect but it certainly solves this issue. It also means your 3* roster isn't useless once you hit the 4* tier.0 -
How is competition like this resolved in real life? You don't see pro tennis players hanging out at the park sharking casual players very often.
The answer is that as you get more advanced at something, you start to play for higher stakes. A 5* player should be targeting teams that are better than his and defending against teams that are worse than his, but because the stakes never change as you progress, the opposite is true.
They don't need to artificially tier everybody by their roster or make people choose to hobble their potential. All they should do is just make it so teams you fight are worth points based on their quality instead of their placement.0 -
OneLastGambit wrote:A quick change would fix the MMR ...
You get matched to people according to the team you choose.
So if I pick a 3* team I only get matched against equivalent 3* teams.
Pick a 3 */3*/4* and you get equivalent teams.
Its not perfect but it certainly solves this issue. It also means your 3* roster isn't useless once you hit the 4* tier.
Interesting idea, but as you choose your team after you choose your opposition, they'd have to change that whole mechanic.
I'd like to be able to choose a "no 5* allowed" or maybe "no 5* with more than n covers" bracket, leave the whales isolated to fight amongst themselves with their line coordination for their 5000+ points per event, but I guess any such splitting would have to be multiplied by 5 for slices, so it would get unwieldy.0 -
Whelp, here's an update on the last event of the season (Moon Knight, so almost everyone has a loaner).
Using: 450 Phoenix (PH), 352 (Champ/Buffed) DPXF, Loaner Moon Knight. Ran to 300 at start, floated.
First 36 hours hit by (some multi-taps, couldn't tell which):Champ OML, 435 PH
435 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, CHamp PH
....those were just initial retals cleared, all different rosters (not repeats!)
Rest of event hit by:Champ OML, Champ/buffed Carnage
Champ OML, 435 PH
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ OML, Champ GG
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
Champ OML, Champ PH
...here come the late runners in the last 8/3 hours, all different again
Champ OML, Champ Ghost Rider
390 OML, 390 PH
Other nodes found (in order throughout the event):405 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 PH, Champ HB
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
390 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ PH, Champ Ice
420 OML, 250 (!) Cyc
390 OML, Champ/Buffed IF (3*!)
375 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
435 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
422 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 OML, 435 PH
420 PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ SS, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 SS, Champ JG
390 PH, Champ/buffed IM (3*!)
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
405 OML, Champ JG
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
420 PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 SS, Champ JG
375 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
360 OML, 390 PH
420 PH, Champ/Buffed Carnage
390 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
435 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
375 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
390 OML, 405 PH
375 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
420 PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
435 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
345 OML, 375 PH
435 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
410 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
420 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
405 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
435 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
375 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
375 OML, Champ PH
390 OML, Champ HB
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
375 OML, Champ/buffed Carnage
360 OML, 376 PH
405 OML, 420 PH
375 OML, Champ/buffed DPXF
435 OML, Champ/buffed DPX
390 OML, 390 PH
390 OML, 405 PH
420 PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
420 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
390 OML, Champ HB
420 PH, 405 SS
390 OML, 405 PH
Champ PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ PH, Champ/Buffed Carnage
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
435 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ PH, Champ/Buffed DPXF
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ PH, Champ/Buffed Carnage
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
375 OML, Champ PH
420 PH, 405 SS
390 OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
390 OML, 390 PH
405 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
390 OML, Champ HB
405 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
420 OML, Champ/Buffed IF (3*!)
375 OML, Champ PH
375 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed DPXF
360 PH, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage
Champ OML, 420 PH
Hit 21+ times - every single time the team contained OML (19+ times OML champed)
Saw 83 other nodes - 18 contained Phoenix or SS and no OML (never saw a non 5* team after initial climb).
104 nodes seen - 86 contained OML - 83% of the time OML observed.
Truly, this is MPQ: OML as Dauthi commented about as a reason to quit (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46423)
Something needs to be done about this. (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=46510)
Some other observations from a season of play with a max 5*:
1) Sorry to those rosters that are the weakest of the MMR folks I can see. You can see the "375 OML, Champ/Buffed Carnage" and "390 OML, Champ HB" several times at the bottom of that list - climbing while I was climbing, and I probably triple-tapped them. I apologize - and you can see from this list you were by far the easiest matchups I was finding - worth a fair bit and less likely to retal. I really wish the MMR was wider, so I could find more options.
2) Hits from 420's or less very often stopped in the last 8 hours - they were climbing then, and didn't want to risk retals.
3) It's really easy to run from 300/500 straight up to 1300 with a max 5* + buffed 4* in the last eight (easier if just last three!) hours. It takes me almost all the health packs to do that - and that's why OML is so prolific, folks are running to that 1300 from zero and not needing the health packs.
4) Because folks -can- start late they -do- start late, and max teams running over me all event but especially at end is very common. I have no idea why they can see me when I'm at 800+ and they are at 300-, the retals being worth one is ridiculous.
5) Any time I saw a 3* I basically immediately attacked - not expecting any retals there. Any time I saw a un-boosted 4* it was the same thing - retals much less likely. I learned that if I find a 405 or less 5* they are not to be feared.
6) And this made me fear for a week where I -don't- have a good boosted 4*, I had one each week this season. But to do that I pushed hard to max Ice-Man two weeks ago and harder to max DPXF for the final event.
7) Obviously this is pretty incredibly boring - always playing the same character, almost always playing against the same character.
8) ISO drought and RNG-only progression is a total bummer.
...D3, want a suggestion to make money? I would totally pay to select a slate of characters [five?] that were dramatically reduced in level [-100?] for a season or something. In fact, at this point I might pay if I could choose ONE (non-essential) character per week (possibly per event!) that I both can't play and can't play against. The OML players would probably pay as well! Of those 104 nodes I saw, 43 contained Phoenix (although admittedly the bulk of them contained both PH and OML). If she had True Healing, I bet I'd see a bunch more copies of her out there under level 400, just like OML under level 400 is out there everywhere.0 -
SnowcaTT wrote:
4) Because folks -can- start late they -do- start late, and max teams running over me all event but especially at end is very common. I have no idea why they can see me when I'm at 800+ and they are at 300-, the retals being worth one is ridiculous.
This is something I don't understand myself too, how someone can hit me for a -1 retaliation! This guy probably had 800-1000 points less than me. It is not normal but it happens a lot. And it makes people with champed 5s lazy. They just stomp over anyone.
Then on a general note, we all use OML for two reasons, first self-heal, second he has been out for almost longer than anybody else (just SS is older, but he is really bad). I can level my SS to 450, but mine is still 255, why raise my scaling in PvE to max a really bad char? And then my PH can be levelled to 435 but I just have 2 purples, so I am waiting until I get another purple and then I will max her so I can respec.
What I mean with all this is that I dont think OML is OP, it is just that he is more convenient (less health packs) to use and more people have him maxed (also helps this separation of classic/latest LTs). I think this situation is very different than when others like CMagneto, Sentry or even XForce were nerfed which were clearly better than the other chars, OML is on par with GG and IM46 (even though heal helps a lot). If 5s were easier to get we would be seeing a lot more GGs and IM46s, but I guess until GG goes to classic LTs things are going to stay the same, people will use OML and some OML+PH.
I think that in the long run it was a very bad decision to split 5s into classic and Latest LTs.0 -
Couldn't you keep the 5* characters at the max boosted level of a 4* and keep MMR down? I see no reason to max champ a 5*, even with a non optimal spec, it just isn't worth the hassle. Call it twinking MPQ style.0
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We_are_Venom wrote:Couldn't you keep the 5* characters at the max boosted level of a 4* and keep MMR down? I see no reason to max champ a 5*, even with a non optimal spec, it just isn't worth the hassle. Call it twinking MPQ style.
Yes. I messed up and should have listened to folks when I ran results of running from 300 -> 400:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44648
Almost everyone there seems to think that staying at 375 is the sweet spot. And that itself is a problem.0 -
I agree. I wish I could go back and stop at 375 or 390. whatever puts me under getting seen continually by champed 5s. that's where I'd want to be. 405 is enough where most see me except for the very top. and if I have some good boosteds, I get seen by most anyways, even double 5* champs.SnowcaTT wrote:Almost everyone there seems to think that staying at 375 is the sweet spot. And that itself is a problem.0 -
Is the 5* situation still this bad?
I have a 13 cover OML and am saving up the ISO and the CP to get him and Phoenix to 450 together (Phoenix is 5/2/5, so spending 720 CP on a purple cover seems reasonable...). Can't quite decide if this would be a good idea or not though... From my alliance I got the advice to just raise OML at first and save Phoenix for later, might be a workable plan I guess...
So anyway, I'd like to hear more about what it's like to play with maxed fivestars, both PvP och PvE.0 -
Yes. I meant to track it this season again, there were a bunch of featured characters that really helped OML (either further giving him strike tile boosts or fast AP characters that put those strikes out there).
I'm seeing primarily max DPXF along with 435+ OML so far in Cat-5, soooo glad we don't have a full week of DPXF boosts. I still never see a non 360+ 5* team (Actually I saw a couple of these mythological teams when folks could use max/buffed Ice + HB). I'm easily seeing 85% OML still and I always have to use Phoenix and these matches often are a giant, boring slog...the game is draining on me more than ever.
Another thing I see is further confirmation that OML is the only character that matters - I've seen players bench 420 Phoenix in favor of running boosted 4*'s. I don't think I've ever seen a 350 OML benched.
MMR is still terrible, I can't believe the haven't widened it. I was going to track who is hitting me vs. who I can't see and post it here - the other day I was hit by a HUGE double-maxed 5* team...I'm running 450/369/325 - 1144 levels. I was hit by a team with more than 250 levels on mine....mind you, that means 250 CHAMPED 5* LEVELS, which are hardly a one-to-one equivalent!
Meanwhile, I see these 3* teams all around my ranking that I cannot see, I wanted to track how many rosters that are 250 levels less than mine I see after the first hour an event opens (if any!)
All of that said - without Line (the only/easiest way to hit 1300) I'm hitting 1300 progression over half the time. Yes I have to use Phoenix all the time but I easily hit PVE progression every time now. The scaling is rough but not impossible with the one 5*, it became much better with the last adjustment.
There is no reason not to max OML - both of these events will be much easier for you since you'll never need health packs. To run to 1300 for me costs almost all the health packs - I ask team-mates with OML and it costs them 3-4, it's simply ridiculous.
And while I see a fair amount of 450/450 I see primarily 450/4* like my own roster or 420/435 (so MMR "works"....), I don't typically see the mega-whales (470/470 or worse) - but I'd guess you'd start seeing them if you have 450/450 instead of 450/360. If you want to see 3* teams or any variety in 4* teams I'd still stay under 375. If you're willing to live with OML/Max-buffed 4* as almost every team you see, I'd go 450/375.0 -
I have a champed OML and some champed 4*s but no other leveled 5*.
What I see is mostly OML + buffed 4* in pvp. Yes it's boring, but it's also pretty easy. I can find enough level 360-420 OMLs worth high points that the climb is fast. I can now go from 300-1300+ in a single go, using maybe 2 health packs.
Sure I get shot down by double maxed 5* rosters but this is pvp...
PVE is super easy. No/little health packs and fast clears. Also boring since it's once again OML + 2 others.
I don't think I would level a second 5*, since if my understanding is correct, I would be unable to use my champed 4*s as the scaling would be too tough. Seeing as the only diversity comes from the 4*s I don't want to lose them!
Maybe this helps. Either way, good luck!0 -
Thanks! Out of curiousity, what level are your PvE opponents?Minox wrote:I have a champed OML and some champed 4*s but no other leveled 5*.
What I see is mostly OML + buffed 4* in pvp. Yes it's boring, but it's also pretty easy. I can find enough level 360-420 OMLs worth high points that the climb is fast. I can now go from 300-1300+ in a single go, using maybe 2 health packs.
Sure I get shot down by double maxed 5* rosters but this is pvp...
PVE is super easy. No/little health packs and fast clears. Also boring since it's once again OML + 2 others.
I don't think I would level a second 5*, since if my understanding is correct, I would be unable to use my champed 4*s as the scaling would be too tough. Seeing as the only diversity comes from the 4*s I don't want to lose them!
Maybe this helps. Either way, good luck!0 -
If I remember correctly, for the hard nodes, the opponents start at around level 250 and end up at 350?-375? They end up with 25-30k health.
Sounds high, but if you can take out the AOE and stun guys then OML just heals through anything and his black makes short work of the rest.0 -
With 450 Phoneix + (usually a buffed 4*) the PVE hardest opponents now mostly scale to around that buffed 4* level (something like 360/360/360)0
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Cool, my hardest node in The Simulator (War Machine/Quicksilver/Kamala) has scaled to level 333, so maxing OML only shouldn't have too much impact on my scaling. Seems like a good path to take then, I'll make sure to have enough ISO and CP in reserve to max Phoenix if needed though.0
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Minox wrote:then OML just heals through anything and his black makes short work of the rest.
This is really one of the main things to take from this though. One of the main reasons for lack of diversity is OML is just incredibly powerful (read: broken) compared to the rest of the older 4*'s, and until the other 5*'s are brought up to his power or (more easily) he is brought down, you'll continue to see nothing but the same teams.
450 certainly makes the game very boring - hopefully their upcoming changes do something to help diversity. But I have no faith that OML won't be in 85% of matches a year from now unless that character itself is dramatically changed.0
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