Answers to Undergrowth Champion?

Omega Red

Morphis wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

Just wanted to say this is a **** autowin card. Nerf it. Nerf it hard ASAP. Thank you, have a nice day!

Not at all, I found a secret technique to use when I face undergrowth champion, inspired by martial arts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlit8q5viCI&t=12m00s

Very Zen approach! I've used it a couple of times myself!

span_argoman

I propose that Undergrowth Champion should get -2/-2 per hit/burn/removal instead of -1/-1 while still only get +1/+1 per landfall. With Retreat with Kazandu, Undergrowth Champion more or less gets +2/+2 per landfall at the moment anyway.

Thoughts?

Jazzpha

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

span_argoman

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

Yes and no. Undergrowth Champion is usually played with a large number of supports to boost its power, namely Sword of the Animist, Sigil of Valor and Retreat from Kazandu. So it usually shows up from the start at least as a 6/6 which at -1/-1 per hit usually means all your creatures will be dead long before Undergrowth Champion. Not to mention the subsequent boosts that landfalls will give to the card. Or the opponent summoning a second Undergrowth Champion to reinforce the first.

An alternative as earlier mentioned is to make it -2/-1 per hit/damage/removal. This means it still fulfils it's role as a defender blocking multiple hits but it becomes less efficient at clearing your board with each additional reduction it takes.

An issue I have with just making it vulnerable to hard removal is that you pretty much mandate Scour from Existence to be in every Red and Green deck to combat this menace which is going to reduce deck diversity. I don't think that's a good thing but for sure it will be better than them leaving things as is.

khurram

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

UC has such a unique ability. Its a shame that sometimes its so hard to remove.


I suggest -1/-1 for damage and -2/-2 for hard removal/destroy spells

span_argoman

khurram wrote:

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

UC has such a unique ability. Its a shame that sometimes its so hard to remove.


I suggest -1/-1 for damage and -2/-2 for hard removal/destroy spells

How about -2/-1 for all?

khurram

span_argoman wrote:

khurram wrote:

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

UC has such a unique ability. Its a shame that sometimes its so hard to remove.


I suggest -1/-1 for damage and -2/-2 for hard removal/destroy spells

How about -2/-1 for all?

That could work... but it may leave it handicapped? UC is not always hard to remove, a lone UC can be dealt with in just a couple of turns..... hard when it is reinforced, buffed and impossible when given first strike and reach too.

I dont know, maybe -2/-1 is not a bad idea afterall

Jazzpha

khurram wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

khurram wrote:

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

UC has such a unique ability. Its a shame that sometimes its so hard to remove.


I suggest -1/-1 for damage and -2/-2 for hard removal/destroy spells

How about -2/-1 for all?

That could work... but it may leave it handicapped? UC is not always hard to remove, a lone UC can be dealt with in just a couple of turns..... hard when it is reinforced, buffed and impossible when given first strike and reach too.

I dont know, maybe -2/-1 is not a bad idea afterall

Agreed with the above. -2/-1 would be a solid balancer, so that (as mentioned) it could still block damage without necessarily continually decimating the other player's board. And it would eventually hit 0 health and die, not to mention Trample would pass through it with no problem.

ShawnP1

So I finally faced a UC deck, it was I presume a whale too (it had like 5 mythic), anyhow it wasn't too bad with a good claustrophobia, I kept it locked down and turned the other creatures like the Zendikar roil elementals and Zendikar Incarnate into frogs. Facing a 9/9 frog sucks though, at least its not Gitrog lol. I almost won when it force closed on me...... I almost never play QB because of force closing.

nyaa

Jazzpha wrote:

Giving it -2/-2 would make it much harder to play and keep alive if your opponent already has a board established and you have no hard removal in hand, though. Two hits and it's dead. Or one exchange from an Iroas' Champion/anything else with double strike.

I feel like keeping the -1/-1 in place per hit, but making it vulnerable to destroy or transformation effects would be good enough. So Scour From Existence is a universal answer, along with stuff like Turn to Frog.

I don't think giving it -2/-2 per hit is a bad idea. If you are playing it, the most likely way you are going to do it is to use it with tandem of support and spells. I think it is fine for cards to be designed in such a way that it needs a combo to be good.

As it is, the card is just huge oppressive on its own (and I doubt that the nerf is going to do much to weaken it) -- true, disable gets around it but many colours don't actually have access to that.