Funbalancing - Mags & Spidey

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Vector Mangler wrote:

Bottom line is he's a 4* character and should be, at level 230, unquestionably better than 3* Wolverine.

Except that's not that how this game works. Invisible Woman is not unquestionably stronger than any 3* and she has far more leeway to work with because being overpowered on defensive skills is perfectly fine since that doesn't help you win any faster.

If we disagree on that, I think our fundamental disagreement is over how the game should be. I'm apparently classifying some things as flaws that you consider features and vice versa. If you think character utility shouldn't be strongly coupled with * rating then I don't agree, but can respect that you have a different viewpoint.

Phantron wrote:

Unquestionably stronger is the very definition of P2W. Even 3* aren't necessarily unquestionably stronger than their 2* counterparts, not to mention 3* is quite readily available to everyone without a prohibitive cost.

That's not the definition of pay to win. Pay to win gives a decisive advantage to someone paying vs someone playing their way up. Since a 4* character is not for sale (though the upgrades are) and the only way to get one is to play competitively enough to win a bracket or three in order to get the requisite covers, there's no P2W scenario. James T MoneyBags Esquire can't walk in as a n00b, plonk down $2000 in up-front cash, and start with a fully geared with 230 Wolverine X-Force. For that kind of money a maxed 3* character or two isn't out of the question, but not an X-Force. James T MoneyBags could play for awhile, get a 1/1/1 lvl 1 X-Force Wolverine and then spent big $$$ on ISO/HP to jump to max, but Joe Poor-as-Dirt who is playing for free can grind out enough ISO to do that as well. Money in this game doesn't give one a decisive advantage in any particular event, it just accelerates the grind curve.

I'm not saying the game doesn't have P2W concerns, because I think shields are a bit troubling in that direction, but strong 4* characters would contribute nothing to a P2W scenario.

Phantron wrote:

Wolverine currently has 9000 HP at level 230. If he simply has The Punisher's offensive stats at level 141, he'd still be 50% better than the Punisher just due to his superior HPs, and that's way too powerful.

Again, you and I apparently have different views on what * rating sould represent in terms of character power.

Unknown

Vector Mangler wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Vector Mangler wrote:

Bottom line is he's a 4* character and should be, at level 230, unquestionably better than 3* Wolverine.

Except that's not that how this game works. Invisible Woman is not unquestionably stronger than any 3* and she has far more leeway to work with because being overpowered on defensive skills is perfectly fine since that doesn't help you win any faster.

If we disagree on that, I think our fundamental disagreement is over how the game should be. I'm apparently classifying some things as flaws that you consider features and vice versa. If you think character utility shouldn't be strongly coupled with * rating then I don't agree, but can respect that you have a different viewpoint.

Phantron wrote:

Unquestionably stronger is the very definition of P2W. Even 3* aren't necessarily unquestionably stronger than their 2* counterparts, not to mention 3* is quite readily available to everyone without a prohibitive cost.

That's not the definition of pay to win. Pay to win gives a decisive advantage to someone paying vs someone playing their way up. Since a 4* character is not for sale (though the upgrades are) and the only way to get one is to play competitively enough to win a bracket or three in order to get the requisite covers, there's no P2W scenario. James T MoneyBags Esquire can't walk in as a n00b, plonk down $2000 in up-front cash, and start with a fully geared with 230 Wolverine X-Force. For that kind of money a maxed 3* character or two isn't out of the question, but not an X-Force. James T MoneyBags could play for awhile, get a 1/1/1 lvl 1 X-Force Wolverine and then spent big $$$ on ISO/HP to jump to max, but Joe Poor-as-Dirt who is playing for free can grind out enough ISO to do that as well. Money in this game doesn't give one a decisive advantage in any particular event, it just accelerates the grind curve.

I'm not saying the game doesn't have P2W concerns, because I think shields are a bit troubling in that direction, but strong 4* characters would contribute nothing to a P2W scenario.

Phantron wrote:

Wolverine currently has 9000 HP at level 230. If he simply has The Punisher's offensive stats at level 141, he'd still be 50% better than the Punisher just due to his superior HPs, and that's way too powerful.

Again, you and I apparently have different views on what * rating sould represent in terms of character power.

It's not what I think that matters. We have Invisible Woman to use as a reference, who has far more room to be overpowered due to her rather exotic skill set, and yet she is not unquestionably stronger than any 3*. It'd take nerf to several of the major 3* powerhouses for her to even be considered a viable member. And while I think people underestimate her, I can see no scenario where she'd ever be unquestionably picked over any 3* in any standard scenario.

Compared to IW, Wolverine has far less room to work with. We'll assume Wolverine's HP won't change (IW did not), and that his skill set isn't going to become something fundamentally different, so it'd be 2 offensive skill + self heal still. There's nothing subtle about his abilities, and if they are even equal to a 3* he is then a 3* with 60% more HP (5800 versus 9328). This is not a small advantage. You might as well not bother fighting the guys with level 230 Wolverine if his skills are even comparable to a 3* just because he has 60% more HP. This game isn't good enough to warrant anyone wasting their time to grind out 4* to fight "Punisher with 60% more HP". If you start seeing one of those characters you'd just conclude this game is P2W and quit wasting your time. To make matters worse, I see a lot of people talk about how they've the 4* ready to put a lot of iso in case they're buffed. Well, these guys probably didn't pay money for the 4* because it's hard to imagine why you'd want to do that when he was so weak. So you introduced a P2W character, except the guys with his cover didn't actually paid for his covers. So D3 makes no real money off buffing Wolverine (because the guys who have his cover never paid for them in the first place) but they sure will lose a lot of customers will decides it's pointless to fight a 4* that has 60% more HP than their 3* while still having the same offensive power. It's financial suicide because they must know the guys who actually have him never paid any money for him, so it's P2W except D3 isn't making any money out of it, so they're killing their own game without even getting any money to show for it. At least pre nerf Ragnarok probably did pull them in a lot of money. There's no way people had been secretly buying up Wolverine 4* covers just in case he's buffed.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

It's not what I think that matters.

Err, Yes it is. In order to make any critical assessment of how anything in the game *should* be, then one must have a mental model or vision in their head that gives one a view of how everything ought to work if everything was funbalanced up perfectly. The only argument that you can base on the current status quo is that the game is perfect as is and no funbalancing is needed at all.

Since Wolverine and other characters are slated for funbalancing, that argument would be irrelevant to this thread and this would be the point where we can debate our various theories of how he ought to be. I'm certainly respectful of anyone who disagrees or has a different vision for how the game should be, but don't feel that there's some holy truth implicit in the game's current state that lets anyone make statements like "4* shouldn't be more powerful than 3*'s and that's the way it is, always has been, and always will be" as absolute fact. That's an opinion, and one I happen to disagree with. I think that 4* characters should be more powerful than 3* characters in both abilities and hit points, similarly to how 3* characters are better in both departments than 2* characters. I respect the fact that until the devs make a definitive statement one way or another we are just debating opinions, so I certainly could be wrong.

Unknown

Vector Mangler wrote:

Phantron wrote:

It's not what I think that matters.

Err, Yes it is. In order to make any critical assessment of how anything in the game *should* be, then one must have a mental model or vision in their head that gives one a view of how everything ought to work if everything was funbalanced up perfectly. The only argument that you can base on the current status quo is that the game is perfect as is and no funbalancing is needed at all.

Since Wolverine and other characters are slated for funbalancing, that argument would be irrelevant to this thread and this would be the point where we can debate our various theories of how he ought to be. I'm certainly respectful of anyone who disagrees or has a different vision for how the game should be, but don't feel that there's some holy truth implicit in the game's current state that lets anyone make statements like "4* shouldn't be more powerful than 3*'s and that's the way it is, always has been, and always will be" as absolute fact. That's an opinion, and one I happen to disagree with. I think that 4* characters should be more powerful than 3* characters in both abilities and hit points, similarly to how 3* characters are better in both departments than 2* characters. I respect the fact that until the devs make a definitive statement one way or another we are just debating opinions, so I certainly could be wrong.

This was the notes posted during Invisible Woman's balancing:

Invisible Woman!

4-star heroes are intended to be formidable, end-game caliber opponents. Prior to this revision, Invisible Woman (one of the most powerful heroes in Marvel canon) wasn't fulfilling her role, or rating, as intended. Did somebody call her bag-lady ?

This tuneup should help establish her as a legendary team-mate.

For context, there's some brief analysis after each ability. It isn't intended to be bulletproof!

Note:
• Damage/strength stats might not be 100% accurate given algorithmic complexity in the game
• Damage/strength/upgrade stats are all based on a Level 1 (Effective Level 30) Invisible Woman.
• Legendary heroes are intended to separate themselves at higher levels, they aren't necessarily more powerful vs. heroes of the same Effective Level. Stats scale considerably as Invisible Woman levels/skills up.

Now I don't know what's the intended effective level of the characters but it's not a 1 to 1 deal. Now that the buffs show the character boosted effective levels let's take a look at some of the stats we know. The highest match damage for a 3* is 67 at level 141. OBW matches purple for 73 at level 125, and Thor matches red at 64 at level 109. Extrapolating these stats we get a match of 67 should be around level 114-115, so we can just say a 3* is equal to stat of a 2* that's 30 levels higher.

So assuming the difference in effective level is another 30 levels between 3* and 4* we'd expect a 4* to be equivalent of a level 171 3*. Now it should be rather obvious that the standard 5800 HP 3* guys won't have 9000 HP at level 171. That's basically IM40/BP range (BP has 8500 HP after level 166). Ignoring Black Panther's black, which is really out of line with a character with so much HP, you actually have a rather poor skillset to work from, which we'd expect to be the price you pay for having considerably more HP than the average character. A level 171 IM40 wouldn't be all that impressive, but that's about all he can be. He can't even a be level 171 Punisher, because the Punisher sure isn't supposed to have 9000 HP at level 171.

Edit: Note that the existing 4*'s highest match strength is 70, which is lower than a level 125 OBW.

Unknown

I just busted out my 4* heroes in the LR, but oddly enough the pair of them and Rag have not been scaring opponents away...

They can change Spidey all that they want as long as the words "ends the turn" do not come up.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

I just busted out my 4* heroes in the LR, but oddly enough the pair of them and Rag have not been scaring opponents away...

They can change Spidey all that they want as long as the words "ends the turn" do not come up.

Honestly more ability should have 'ends the turn' tacked onto it. It's obviously not very fun but it's a good way to ensure you can't get too abusive. Heck, even the old Thunderclap might be barely balanced if it ended your turn when you used it.

Unknown

magickdonut wrote:

Why is everyone so fixated on nerfs? Icex has stated that they are trying to stay away from nerfs (as it causes players who invested iso into a nerfed character a lot of distress). He said that instead the focus will be to buff underused characters to make them viable for play. If you were to take away spideys stunlocking, what else is he good for? Low hp, and very low damage output - the character would be broken. The point of funbalancing now should be to make other characters playable.

I agree in spirit with you but not in practice. A stun that costs 2ap is too good to pass up, so why bother with another other blue power in the game? It makes Spidey mandatory not optional at high level play. He still should heal, as that is a good mechanic, just not stun for 2ap, and maybe the stun ends the turn.

Eddiemon

klingsor wrote:

I agree in spirit with you but not in practice. A stun that costs 2ap is too good to pass up, so why bother with another other blue power in the game? It makes Spidey mandatory not optional at high level play. He still should heal, as that is a good mechanic, just not stun for 2ap, and maybe the stun ends the turn.

Doesn't a stun ending the turn kind of defeat the purpose?

Dayv

Eddiemon wrote:

klingsor wrote:

I agree in spirit with you but not in practice. A stun that costs 2ap is too good to pass up, so why bother with another other blue power in the game? It makes Spidey mandatory not optional at high level play. He still should heal, as that is a good mechanic, just not stun for 2ap, and maybe the stun ends the turn.

Doesn't a stun ending the turn kind of defeat the purpose?

Shh, we've entered a logic-free zone.

OzarkBoatswain

Here's my attempt to figure out a way to change them without nerfing them too hard.

Classic Spider-Man
Blue AP cost +1
Yellow AP cost -1

Classic Magneto
Blue ability: stronger protection tiles but you can't choose the tiles.
Red ability: one of the levels changed to doubling the base damage.
Purple can stay the same the same or have an insignificant damage decrease (-10%, say).

Unknown

Is spiderman really that powerful? You still can lose if the board do not give you blue.

Unknown

wuming79 wrote:

Is spiderman really that powerful? You still can lose if the board do not give you blue.

Spiderman is a pain in the tinykitty. Classic Magneto is a force beyond nature. I will miss my Cmags dearly when he is gone, but anyone that thinks Spiderman is more in need of balancing than Cmags is missing something.

Unknown

I think the point is that c.Mags can take a pretty strong nerf and still be strong and useful. people who have him leveled can still use him effectively and life goes on.

The worry and hence long discussion about spidey is that to nerf him even slightly from his current form could easily relegate him to the trash heap and make everyone who put in the work to max him out be justifiably tinykitty upset

Unknown

wuming79 wrote:

Is spiderman really that powerful? You still can lose if the board do not give you blue.

He's not, he's just a super-utility character. No different than the Hood or OBW.


I think the issue is that stun itself is overpowered. It should not be able to stop existing countdown tiles from triggering. That would be the best way to balance Spidey.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

wuming79 wrote:

Is spiderman really that powerful? You still can lose if the board do not give you blue.

Spiderman is a pain in the tinykitty. Classic Magneto is a force beyond nature. I will miss my Cmags dearly when he is gone, but anyone that thinks Spiderman is more in need of balancing than Cmags is missing something.

I disagree. There is a substantial difference: the AI plays spidey quite well (especially compared to anything else), while can't do anything wot mags except to eventually shoot with purple. And to use mags well the player needs brains.

Also the 2AP spiderman looks like the cheat code to all those 230 fights, and a probable cause we have them in that quantity in the first place. With him gone the devs might give us the game back, something similar we had before the tinikitty scaling.

Phaserhawk

Funbalancing Mags will be fairly easy. Shift some raw power from Purple into blue and red, at the cost of AP increase for blue and red to stop spamming. Giving blue strong tiles, and red more damage.

Funbalacing Spidey is going to be problematic.

1.)Web-tiles. Spidey is currently built to rely on spamming his blue, to increase the effectiveness of his blue, yellow and purple.

2.)Any increase in AP cost to blue will destroy him completely

My solution to Spidey is simple for a game point but difficult probably for programming.

Keep the Webtile theme, it's cool and unique.
1.)Increase Blue, it's too much to have a progressive stun, I would do something similar to venom in terms of cost and stun duration, but add damage, like a web ball. You can then add, for every 3 web tiles, increase stun duration by 1 or damage.
2.) Yellow is fine if you reduce healing however, my thought is pick a solid AP cost say 12. For each level up you can consuming 1 more web tile, so at lvl 1, you consume 1 web tile for x health for everyone, at lvl 2, you consume 2, etc. etc. This controls the abuse of this power by not allowing for super heals but actually helps purple and blue because you won't destroy all of the web tiles he needs to keep blue and purple powered
3.)Purple, keep almost in the current interation, but....allow purple to create web tiles on matches with purple. You may have to decrease shield protection, but have when you match purple, create a purple defensive tile, and a random web tile. This allows Spidey to still use web tiles as cost reduction and keep a feature of his kit.

Doing this shifts power from blue into purple so you don't need to spam blue to create tiles and it reduces the number of tiles yellow takes to control healing as well as help one control web tiles taken.

Summary: Increase AP cost of Blue, but allow damage and stun duration would be full team like venom, but 1 turn, needing 2 tiles on board to stun 2 turns, 6 tiles to stun 3 turns. Yellow, flat AP cost, each level allows you to consume one more web tile for healing. Purple, reduce base protect strength, but allow matching of purple to also create a random webtile along with a purple defense tile.

Unknown

I think a lot of the problems with Spidey would be solved if we had an AI that actually prioritized making matches with webbed/strike tiles instead of just dumbly going after colors it needs or going after 4 way matches.

I always get a laugh when I am playing as Spidey or Doom and all my strike/web tiles are collected at the bottom of the screen and the AI is just happily making purple/blue 3-way matches at the top of the screen.

Unknown

The AI plays Spiderman well enough given its 'one ability per turn' restriction. Try to play Spiderman with the same restriction and he's suddenly not as powerful because it'd be almost impossible to keep 3 guys stunned even with a very large amount of blue AP because your web tiles will be exposed.

The whole point of the AI is that it doesn't assign any value to any tiles/abilities because otherwise you might as well just tell it how to play, and there's nothing hard to tell the AI to make a match 5 with Magnetic Field every single time. It doesn't do it because it doesn't know what Magnetic Field actually does, and that's by design. It's not supposed to have knowledge of how the game works because if it did, you'd just lose most of the time, especially if it has the 'one ability per turn' restriction lifted as well. It might as well pop up a box like 'I got the next 50 moves figured out already, you should hit retreat and save yourself the embarassment' if it actually was trying to win.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

I always get a laugh when I am playing as Spidey or Doom and all my strike/web tiles are collected at the bottom of the screen and the AI is just happily making purple/blue 3-way matches at the top of the screen.

I often leave an enemy off-color 4-match for the AI just cuz I'd rather soak that paltry damage and get a match I definitely need.

I would fear an AI that didn't dumbly make matches. If the AI could see "L" and "T" 5-matches, went after your positive tiles (and to some extent protected it's own tiles), and was more flexible about when to use which ability, my win/loss ratio would plummet hard.

Unknown

Well, if we are going to pretend like defense matters (and rewards players with points that make defenses), we need an AI that makes better choices than it currently does.

Putting precedent on a three match that will destroy 2-3 'special' tiles of the opponent over a simple 3 match that only collects a few AP for an ability isn't game-breaking. It's the way the game should already be.