** Storm (Classic) ** [PRE 2013-12]

Unknown

Mommson wrote:

Mommson wrote:

Stormheart wrote:

How exactly is Storm's Classic green power level 5 working? Does it overwrite previous levels, so I get only 1 tile for one AP, no more 6 additional tiles?

Sorry guys (and girls) but all the answers given in this thread to this question are wrong. Before yesterday I thought you know what you're doing but now I have a classic storm with 5 points in Green and the answer is, the 6 additional tiles vanish at level 5. So if you use the skill with exactly 12 Green available, the skill does not change. It destroys 12 tiles at level 4 and 12 tiles at level 5. The maximum you can get is therefore 21 tiles at level 4 and 30 tiles at level 5 with 30 Green present. So if you factor this in, here some thoughts about classic and modern in comparison:

12 Green AP: modern storm better because 12 vs 16 tiles with 2 AP to spare

20 Green AP: modern storm gets 32 tiles. If classic gets 4 or more Green AP with the first use of her skill , then she can use him again and gets 32 + tiles (but already used 4 of them)

30 Green AP: modern gets 48 tiles. Classic gets 48 tiles as well but has 6 Green AP at the end to spare.


At the end of the day, although they sound much different the skills are generally the same at level 5. In my opinion (since 10 minutes ago when i started thinking about it) modern storm Green skill is even slightly ahead

Here a quote about the same question

Classic Storm gets 48 minimum off 30 AP (2 casts) with potential for more. Modern gets exactly 48 (3 casts). They both get a chance at another cast, but Classic has a better chance (cost is lower and potentially breaks more tiles).

There's also timing. Modern, it doesn't really matter when you use them as much. Classic you can save 30 AP, use it once. Get maybe 4 or 5 back from the cast, then match another green or two and your back to 30. You don't have to use 2 casts back-to-back.

That being said, they're both good cards, IMO. Modern Storm is underated, especially considering black is less common. All I see is Iron Man, Iron Man, Iron Man, and I don't know why.

Unknown

I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere but I haven't seen a topic dedicated to this so...
Here's my reasoning why I think classic storm is bad for the game:
1) First and foremost, it cuts down on the diversity of gameplay and depth of strategy that one desires in puzzle games like this. The core to any good strategy/puzzle game, in my opinion, is variety of game play. That is, you should have to think on your feet and adapt to different game states. The core mechanic of this game that gives variety of game play is the random nature of what color gems pop up. You may have a team whose strategy revolves around being able to use one or two certain abilities to start implementing your strategies, but if that color gem is not showing up (or your opponent smartly denies you access to that color), you have to come up with an alternate plan based on what is available. You can mitigate this randomness through other means (using boosts, or a character that generates certain color tiles), but Storm makes this random element almost irrelevant. It exploits the system to pretty much guarantee that you will always have an abundant supply of red AP, so as long as you pair her with a character with a nice damaging red ability, nearly all your games play out exactly the same. Any dummy can churn out wins with Storm paired with a Thor or Ragnarok with very little thought or strategy. Which brings me to my next point...

2) Storm creates a design restraint on the game designer. That is, when developing a new mission, I believe that if the designers want to create something meant to be challenging, they have to create that mission with Storm's ability in mind. For example, if the designers created a mission where the enemy attacks very often for a few hundred damage at a time, this would be a cakewalk for a Storm team. So, as a result, any time the designers want to make a challenging mission, they HAVE to make it one where damage comes in gigantic bursts, that's literally the only way to make a mission challenging em with Storm in mind. It also hinders the ability to make certain types of character abilities, as any ability that damages the whole opposing team is worthless until Storm is dead or stunned.

3) Finally, Storm's biggest flaw is that she plays drastically different when attacking as compared to defending. When using Storm, you can exploit the AI targeting system to get the AI to trigger her ability with no problem. On defense, every player knows to just attack Storm first to avoid having her ever trigger. This creates the unfortunate situation where it's often the best strategy to use Storm on your team (as we know a HUGE majority of tournament teams use Storm), but then all you have is a meat shield on the defense. It goes back to my earlier point on variety of game play... Most tournament matches are "Kill the Storm first, then deal with the rest". The lack of diversity of teams is even more pronounced in tournaments like the Venom Tournament, where one of the slots is already predetermined. How many teams in that tournament are Venom + Storm + Thor/Ragnarok (or other good red ability char)? I venture to guess that WELL over 50% have that exact lineup... And I'm guessing that a majority of ppl not running such a team are doing so just for lack of access to a high enough level Storm, god knows I'd run that team if I could. This creates a very repetitive and eventually unfun tournament.

Those are my reasons why I feel that Storm needs to be dealt with in some way. Some suggestions:
A) Lower the AP output, or have it create red tiles instead of AP. The access to free AP is the biggest problem, as it eliminates the randomness factor and gives you a game plan that can be executed without being susceptible to any randomness.
Have it trigger only if there are a certain number of green tiles on the board, or only if Storm's controller has a certain amount of green AP. This would cut down on the "mindlessness" of the ability and also create interesting choices for the opponent. Much in the same way you can proactively eliminate Yellow tiles to mitigate an opponents Daken or Wolverine, you could seek to eliminate green tiles to "turn off" Storm's ability. This would create strategic situations where you can save up abilities and once you eliminate enough green to disable Storm, you can unload on the other characters that were otherwise off-limits.

Sorry for the long post.. Just some thoughts. I'm interested to hear what others think! I look forward to this game improving and becoming even better than it is now!

Unknown

I agree with you, but I would just like to add on some points. The problem with Raging tempest isn't the damage, but how frequent it can be exploited to trigger. I posted the recommendations in the discussion forum, but I hope the Devs can pick it up:

1. Having a max of 1 tempest trigger per team, per turn.
2. Changing the trigger such that it isn't 20% of allies health. I cannot say for now what the best solution is, but I will recommend it to be "Any time a teammate takes direct damage >50% of Storm's health". For a max level Storm with 2670 health, it comes up to 1335. That's a reasonable number. If you think that is high, just lower the percentage in trigger. I'm working with first principles here, not the actual damage figure. Also, a low leveled Storm may trigger more often due to her low health, but the damage done from it is likely to be smaller as well. This also eliminates the phenomenon of needing low health allies in the group.

I'm keeping the damage per trigger per level the same, just reducing the frequency of triggering, which is the problem.

Unknown

Bombul wrote:

I agree with you, but I would just like to add on some points. The problem with Raging tempest isn't the damage, but how frequent it can be exploited to trigger. I posted the recommendations in the discussion forum, but I hope the Devs can pick it up:

1. Having a max of 1 tempest trigger per team, per turn.
2. Changing the trigger such that it isn't 20% of allies health. I cannot say for now what the best solution is, but I will recommend it to be "Any time a teammate takes direct damage >50% of Storm's health". For a max level Storm with 2670 health, it comes up to 1335. That's a reasonable number. If you think that is high, just lower the percentage in trigger. I'm working with first principles here, not the actual damage figure. Also, a low leveled Storm may trigger more often due to her low health, but the damage done from it is likely to be smaller as well. This also eliminates the phenomenon of needing low health allies in the group.

I'm keeping the damage per trigger per level the same, just reducing the frequency of triggering, which is the problem.

The problem with your suggestion is that you've created a situation where now there's an incentive to keep Storm as low level as possible. With your change, a low level Storm plus two big allies pretty much can't lose on the attack. Since your storm is low level, she'll pretty much never be put up front, and since her HP is low, pretty much every opponent attack will trigger tempest, creating a huge amount of free red AP for your big allies to smash face with.

I insist that the main problem with the ability is generating large amounts of free AP, which eliminates any need for a variety in strategy (you don't have to adjust based on what color gems populate, you can always be guaranteed to have plenty of Red AP)

Unknown

Twanbon wrote:

The problem with your suggestion is that you've created a situation where now there's an incentive to keep Storm as low level as possible. With your change, a low level Storm plus two big allies pretty much can't lose on the attack. Since your storm is low level, she'll pretty much never be put up front, and since her HP is low, pretty much every opponent attack will trigger tempest, creating a huge amount of free red AP for your big allies to smash face with.

I insist that the main problem with the ability is generating large amounts of free AP, which eliminates any need for a variety in strategy (you don't have to adjust based on what color gems populate, you can always be guaranteed to have plenty of Red AP)

I see your point. Your suggestion on X number of green tiles on board as a requirement might be worth looking into. Since the skill is essentially a yellow one, why not make it a yellow tiles requirement? As for the green AP in stock as a requirement, it contradicts on the use of Lightning Storm which utilizes green AP, so it might not be so desirable.

As for the issue with red AP gain, it was not something I gave too much thought about, admittedly. I will go along with the red tiles on board change as you said.

Unknown

I agree that it's OP but not necessarily bad for the game. It's one of the only ways for low levels to compete. Nerf her sure, but then give us alternatives.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

I agree that it's OP but not necessarily bad for the game. It's one of the only ways for low levels to compete. Nerf her sure, but then give us alternatives.

It's bad for the game both because it's basically become an exploit and also because it's killing team diversity(too many teams have classic storm on them). Both of those are bad for the game.

Unknown

one way to nerf it a little is to affect only the person being attacked, not the entire team.

Unknown

forgrim wrote:

one way to nerf it a little is to affect only the person being attacked, not the entire team.

I doubt that is the solution. We have to retain the core function of the skill, and reduce the frequency at which it triggers. The instant red AP gain is a bit excessive as well; at the very least make it such that you have to match them on the boards to get it.

I wished the Devs came out with a response on Classic Storm, like "We're working on it" or something. Otherwise it's just hanging in the air. This, plus a few other character balances, are needed before the game can be out of preview stage.

Unknown

Ranzera wrote:

It's bad for the game both because it's basically become an exploit and also because it's killing team diversity(too many teams have classic storm on them). Both of those are bad for the game.

Yeah, but for some people it's use c.Storm or lose. If they nerfed her, many missions would be deemed practically impossible. Like I said, they would need to give us alternatives rather than just nerfing c.Storm and calling it a day.

IMO, one of the main reasons you see c.Storm a lot is because of how easy she is to get. You see a ton of Iron Mans too, doesn't mean he is OP.

Unknown

Bombul wrote:

forgrim wrote:

one way to nerf it a little is to affect only the person being attacked, not the entire team.

I doubt that is the solution. We have to retain the core function of the skill, and reduce the frequency at which it triggers. The instant red AP gain is a bit excessive as well; at the very least make it such that you have to match them on the boards to get it.

I wished the Devs came out with a response on Classic Storm, like "We're working on it" or something. Otherwise it's just hanging in the air. This, plus a few other character balances, are needed before the game can be out of preview stage.

Dev should nerf your rag too

Unknown

derschlosss wrote:

Dev should nerf your rag too

I don't even have a Ragnarok, but I don't recommend nerfing him. He's a 3 star card, and isn't all that easy to obtain. The character balance I am referring to is tuning up the power of Wolverine X and Loki, if you must know. Now back to the Classic Storm balance, I mentioned in another thread:

Ragnarok: 2 AP for a single target ~500 damage at high levels
Classic Storm: 0 AP for 1225 damage to entire team, total 3675 damage, with the chance of it triggering multiple times per turn! And it is available from the first turn!

Yes, Ragnarok has low costs for good damage. But, it is a 3 star card that many have difficulty obtaining, and you really need to Iso level him a lot to be that monster (as with many other cards). There's some truth in him being better than other 3 star cards, but compared to 2 star Classic Storm (& two 1 star baits) which kicks every single **** out there (this is a different level of stratosphere altogether). I certainly don't see Ragnarok ending a battle in 3-5 turns no matter his level, which Classic Storm handily does.

I find it quite disconcerting that whenever the problem with Classic Storm is brought up, the first thing people do is to misdirect attention to another card. At the very most Ragnarok is considered overpowered for the damage/AP ratio, that's all. On the other hand, Classic Storm is plain and simple exploitation. Having a skill trigger multiple times per turn, at zero cost, and hitting the entire side with 1225 damage each, and generating 5-6 AP each time for free, is definitely game breaking. I have yet to see a reasonable argument why Classic Storm should be not changed. All anyone can muster is to point their fingers at Ragnarok, or to cry foul that players with weak cards have no way of challenging. I don't want to sound elitist, but if you want to have low leveled cards and constantly roflstomp tournaments, that's a bit too much to ask for.

Unknown

If it isn't proof enough why Classic Storm needs to be changed, take a look at this "strategy" recommended (2nd post on the page). Every single strategy here is how to exploit Classic Storm. All everyone needs to know is how to exploit this game; no need to learn counters for various cards, or to deliberate on team combinations in different scenarios.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=165&start=440

Unknown

Means i must have see wrong

If admin going to nerf or boost any hero please return them back to 15 and return whatever we had spend on them. Just to be fair so we can choose whether to play with it or move on to another character.

Unknown

Bombul wrote:

If it isn't proof enough why Classic Storm needs to be changed, take a look at this "strategy" recommended (2nd post on the page). Every single strategy here is how to exploit Classic Storm. All everyone needs to know is how to exploit this game; no need to learn counters for various cards, or to deliberate on team combinations in different scenarios.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=165&start=440

erm its not really an exploit i would say. It has to depend on luck too whether you able to match, if not you are game over lol

Unknown

Bombul wrote:

If it isn't proof enough why Classic Storm needs to be changed, take a look at this "strategy" recommended (2nd post on the page). Every single strategy here is how to exploit Classic Storm. All everyone needs to know is how to exploit this game; no need to learn counters for various cards, or to deliberate on team combinations in different scenarios.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=165&start=440

Again, the dilemma isn't so much that this strat is OP, rather it is that it is the -only- strat for many players. Give us alternatives and I'd gladly welcome c.Storm taking a nerf bat to her face.

Also, as derschlosss said, it still requires a bit of luck. As a c.Storm user myself, I can say that it has allowed me to complete Unstable ISO-8 missions, but not really farm them reliably. I would love to hear the strats of top #10 players. I have a feeling that it's not all c.Storm.

I think one of the core questions to game balance is whether to nerf strong abilities or to buff weak abilities. Variety can be achieved through either/or. IMO, a little bit of both would be ideal but if I had to choose one over the other, I'd rather see buffing over nerfing. Too many times I've seen nerf nazis take the fun out of games.

Unknown

^ this. buff over nerf. every. time.

this is a game about superheroes not stuffed animal tea party. there should be a feeling of power when using abilities not "ho hum another 300 dmg, yawn"

when c.storm passive hits it's maelstorm of fun. when thor smashes his red hammer chaining a yellow you have a "hulk smash" moment. when magneto uses his blue spawn to chain into c.storm whirlwind stun it's great fun.

devs showed this balance nicely when they buffed modern hawkeye red ability to 10 energy, this was much needed and now makes me consider using him. i'd rather choose which awesome hero i want not which is the least bad.

we want more moments of this not a watered down version of favorites. buff!

Unknown

As someone whose played quite a few games competitively (mostly card and board games), there is a always a big problem with mechanics that allow you to "cheat" the resource system. In this game, the resource is AP. Every ability is balanced by an AP cost and the main way to gain AP is by matching gems. This allows the opponent to play a proactive defensive strategy by eliminating the gems your opponent needs, and conversely, you have to prioritize matching that color over others to make sure you have the requisite AP (for example, often it is the right move to make a single match of an important color than a 4-match or a 2-cascade of colors you don't need).
Storms ability to generate free AP reliably cheats the resource system in a way that's too easily exploitable.
To draw a parallel, if anyone's played Magic competitively before, Storm is the equivalent of having a bunch of Dark Rituals in your hand every game. It allows you to play a completely superior strategy than people generating resources the way the game is designed to. And there's a reason Magic stopped printing Dark Ritual, nowadays any mechanics that generate you additional resources, generally can't be played so quickly and require you to jump through some hoops first (ie, my suggestion for needing to have a certain number of yellow gems on the board to trigger).

Unknown

Ragnarok would honestly be fine if his green cost 1 or 2 more. That's a minor tweak compared to classic storm. It's not really a debate though. The devs are almost certainly already aware of the usage statistics and they are extremely likely to be changing her without our ****.

Unknown

Twanbon wrote:

As someone whose played quite a few games competitively (mostly card and board games), there is a always a big problem with mechanics that allow you to "cheat" the resource system. In this game, the resource is AP. Every ability is balanced by an AP cost and the main way to gain AP is by matching gems. This allows the opponent to play a proactive defensive strategy by eliminating the gems your opponent needs, and conversely, you have to prioritize matching that color over others to make sure you have the requisite AP (for example, often it is the right move to make a single match of an important color than a 4-match or a 2-cascade of colors you don't need).
Storms ability to generate free AP reliably cheats the resource system in a way that's too easily exploitable.
To draw a parallel, if anyone's played Magic competitively before, Storm is the equivalent of having a bunch of Dark Rituals in your hand every game. It allows you to play a completely superior strategy than people generating resources the way the game is designed to. And there's a reason Magic stopped printing Dark Ritual, nowadays any mechanics that generate you additional resources, generally can't be played so quickly and require you to jump through some hoops first (ie, my suggestion for needing to have a certain number of yellow gems on the board to trigger).

You talk about AP denial, but there are similar strats you can use against c.Storm, namely targetting her first. This is much easier to stop than Thor or Ragnarok's AP generating abilities, especially given the fact that she's somewhat a glass cannon. I don't think anyone here has trouble defeating a team with c.Storm.

Really c.Storm's "exploit" is one of player vs. AI. In a player vs. player setting, c.Storm's passive wouldn't actually be that great.