Nerf OML

LordXberk

I wasn't around for the 4* Wolvie or Thoress nerfs, but I can guess the boards went nuts. I can only image how crazy people would get if they nerfed OML. Especially players that have spent $1,000s or $10,000s to acquire them. That's a ton more money than anyone could've possibly spent on XFW or Thora since you could buy them outright for ~$100 (10 covers for 2,500 HP each), so it's hard for me to see them nerfing them w/o pissing off the largest of the whales.

SnowcaTT

LordXberk wrote:

I wasn't around for the 4* Wolvie or Thoress nerfs, but I can guess the boards went nuts. I can only image how crazy people would get if they nerfed OML. Especially players that have spent $1,000s or $10,000s to acquire them. That's a ton more money than anyone could've possibly spent on XFW or Thora since you could buy them outright for ~$100 (10 covers for 2,500 HP each), so it's hard for me to see them nerfing them w/o pissing off the largest of the whales.

That's the biggest problem - they've made the payment system super-whales only (fine, mostly) - and they can't ever upset them.

Which is why they need to segregate them. 5*'s shouldn't be able to ever see/hit 3*'s, quite honestly. And I don't mean segregate people through bracketing/scaling - segregate events. Want to not see 5*? Play the current PVP, earn your 4*'s. Want to use your 5*'s? Play a new PVP type - the one you transition to to get your 4* end-game on and actually transition into 5*.

SnowcaTT

Attacked six times in DP so far.

Would you care to guess how many of those -weren't- 375+ OML?

One (had a maxed Rhulk instead). Only one of those had a different/(another) 5*. OML is all you need to dominate, and it's all you see out there at high levels. Or low levels. Or any time in any format.

fight4thedream

If I may *clears throat*

One of the great ironies of this game is OML's healing; both in terms of character history and in terms of game design. For those unfamiliar with Grandpa Logan, it has been clearly stated on more than one occasion that OML's healing factor isn't what it used to be.

Exhibit A:

(From Wolverine: Old Man Logan issue 1 2008)

Exhibit B:

(From Secret Wars: Old Man Logan issue 3 2015, the same issue they use for his cover in the game incidentally)

In fact, the development team even acknowledges this in the power description:
Die Hard - Passive
(PASSIVE) Logan's healing factor keeps him standing, but ain't quite what it used to be. At the start of the turn, Wolverine restores 219 health for each team member still in the fight.

And yet in MPQ, he has the best healing factor, not just among all versions of Wolverine, but in the game. Arguably his current healing power should actually belong to X-Force Wolverine since that version is a team leader which would justify his healing being tied to his team mates, and OML should have X-Force's healing since it is not certain you will actually heal and he attacks when the tile is matched.

In terms of game design, the development team apparently forgot that a "glass cannon" is supposed to be made of "glass". At max level, OML is healing at 1586 a turn. Good luck with that 4* characters and even 5* characters are lucky if they can whittle his health down with just match damage.

Just for comparison, Silver Surfer gets 1758 for matching his strongest color (blue) - OML's healing next turn at 1586 = 172 damage.

And that's just talking about his OP healing. Don't get me started on Living Legend where his "reputation" magically causes more damage than a strike from Thor's mighty hammer.

OML represents that once again the development team is willing to forgo character history and ability to meet its own design goals. OML in his "Pacifist" state still causes a ton more damage than Silver Surfer in his "perfect" state (not to mention all the characters in the lower tiers).

Which can only mean that the development team intentionally designed him to be OP. It would not be difficult to actually have some form of balance in the 5* tier; all the development team would really have to do is raise the damage level of Silver Surfer's Cosmic Beam (which currently does less damage than HulkBuster Iron Man's punch when buffed btw) and increase his heal (at 5 covers he really should be able to fully heal himself).

As it currently stands, even if you were to collect 30 red AP Silver Surfer still does not have enough fire power to take down a maxed OML. (It would leave OML with 9,692 HP plus 1,586 heal if he hasn't popped his claws). [For a full analysis of why Silver Surfer needs a buff check out: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32590&start=280#p489895]

I have come to the (cynical) conclusion that the development team willingly sacrificed game balance in order to spurn sales. I suppose their thinking was that if the 5* tier were balanced from the get-go, a player would stop chasing after CP and LTs after maxing one 5* character. In order to continue having people spending time and/or money, they created a character that was clearly better than the rest to keep people playing (and paying).

Do I think they should nerf OML? Yes and No.

Yes: But not simply because he is OP'd out the whazoo. I just feel character-wise, this is another failed project where the in-game character does not reflect the comic character well. Once again abilities have been shoe-horned on a character to meet design goals. I mean "Living Legend" really? Honestly, the Apocalypse version of Wolverine is a better fit for these powers.

No: I would rather they buff the other 5* characters, Silver Surfer in particular, than nerf. A lot of people have invested a lot of time and money in getting their OML, they shouldn't be punished for the development team's design decisions.

And once again I have said too much.

Crowl

LordXberk wrote:

I wasn't around for the 4* Wolvie or Thoress nerfs, but I can guess the boards went nuts. I can only image how crazy people would get if they nerfed OML. Especially players that have spent $1,000s or $10,000s to acquire them. That's a ton more money than anyone could've possibly spent on XFW or Thora since you could buy them outright for ~$100 (10 covers for 2,500 HP each), so it's hard for me to see them nerfing them w/o pissing off the largest of the whales.

Regardless of the amount that has been spent, they should treat SS as the baseline for 5* and the others should be nerfed down to that level, they would still already be a major upgrade over 4*'s, just marginally less ludicrously so.

Dayv

fight4thedream wrote:

Yes: But not simply because he is OP'd out the whazoo. I just feel character-wise, this is another failed project where the in-game character does not reflect the comic character well. Once again abilities have been shoe-horned on a character to meet design goals. I mean "Living Legend" really? Honestly, the Apocalypse version of Wolverine is a better fit for these powers.

No: I would rather they buff the other 5* characters, Silver Surfer in particular, than nerf. A lot of people have invested a lot of time and money in getting their OML, they shouldn't be punished for the development team's design decisions.

And once again I have said too much.

I think it might be better to nerf OML, maybe buff Silver Surfer just a little, and leave the other 5* where they are. But otherwise I agree.

IamTheDanger

As for nerfing him..... well, let's look back.

Everyone was using Rags and Spidey. They got nerfed.
Everyone was using Sentry, Hood and Daken. They got nerfed.
Everyone was using X-Force and Goddess Thor. They got nerfed.
Everyone is using OML.......

See a pattern there?

I really, really, really hope Demiurge does NOT nerf OML. But history tends to repeat itself.

Personally, I love OML. Not because he is powerful, but because Wolverine is, was, and always will be, one of my favorite comic characters. Which is why I really want Sabertooth added to the game. Logan and Victor just go so well together. We have 4 Wolverines, X-23 and 2 Dakens, but no Sabertooth.



JJ.

fight4thedream

aesthetocyst wrote:

fight4thedream wrote:

...in MPQ, he has the best healing factor, not just among all versions of Wolverine, but in the game. Arguably his current healing power should actually belong to X-Force Wolverine since that version is a team leader which would justify his healing being tied to his team mates, and OML should have X-Force's healing since it is not certain you will actually heal and he attacks when the tile is matched.

Disagree on mechanics and on lore.

He has the best healing in the game because he is a . Recall the old saw, rarity does not indicate power level. If they release a 5* Aunt May, syhe will pound 2* Wolvie.

XFW, Patch, 2wolvie all heal regardless of allies because Logan in his prime was a loner. OML keeps only going because he has family, and because his allies are threatened.

If there were a 5* Young Wolvie, presumably he would heal at least as well, and again, regardless of allies.


Lastly .. OML is at heart a tough old tinykitty.

Alas my dear aesthetocyst it seems we are destined to always disagree when it comes to character interpretation! OML kills for his family and friends (after they die btw), but he heals regardless of whether they are dead or alive.

And it's funny if rarity does not indicate power level, then your conclusion is logically false.

IamTheDanger

aesthetocyst wrote:

Recall the old saw, rarity does not indicate power level. If they release a 5* Aunt May, syhe will pound 2* Wolvie.
:

I was recently told by one of the devs, that that was the original intention. Star level didn't mean better, just how rare a character was. Think back to the original Invisible Woman and X-Force Wolverine. XFW just flat out tinykittyed tinykitty. He was then buffed into a savage beast of mythical proportions. A one man army. Then he was nerfed back down again.

According to the devs, the number of stars was supposed to mean rarity. At first. But basically, since the game has grown so much in the last 2.5 years, the number of stars pretty much equals power.

JJ

rbdragon

My 5* luck was pretty good really early - so much so that I had a 5 or 6 cover Surfer before I got my first OML (before Phoenix was out). I now have a 5/5/2 level 435 Surfer, and my OML is 0/2/0.

Guess which character I see the most in PVP? You guessed it - OML.

So I'm all for nerfing him because he's ridiculous....except I'm not.

For whatever reason, and perhaps it's because I'm a bit crazy, but I've never minded going toe-to-toe with OML. Ever since I started using my Surfer in PVP (I think he was at level 345 3/3/0), I would fight OML as long as he wasn't too far above my level. Just save him for last, save up your powers as best you can, and then go all out on him when he stands alone.

My biggest complaint that everyone uses him is that it gets boring only fighting him.

Now, if you're lacking a 5* that is competitive, then I can see why you'd want him nerfed - but in a perfect world, you shouldn't have to deal with high powered 5*s anyway. That's the bigger issue.

babinro

Why does OML need a nerf exactly?

I'm typically on board with character balance threads including nerfs but I don't see it with OML. Yes he's considered the best 5* and thus best character in the game but he's not actually a broken character.

Phoenix kills things quicker than OML and her revival skill is pretty reliable making her a wonderful true healer as well. Green Goblin can spike damage a character to death from full health very quickly. If you get an OML enemy team down to just OML and he's easy to take out with other 5*'s.

On offense OML needs a LOT of time to setup. Beyond the 9 black and 12 yellow you need to prep him to transform. Doing so right away can easily lead to match loss because he no longer has true healing and his yellow AoE damage is WEAK for 5* tier play. As a 5* tier player fighting against others of the same tier I typically won't transform OML until 16 yellow, 8+ red and 16 black. Because of that AP investment I typically don't transform him at all. He's just a damage sponge that produces strikes.

OML stands out because he's super powerful with very few covers against 4* enemies. Something that's not true with any other 5*. His true healing is amazing against 4* teams as well. These are NOT reasons to nerf a character though.

Polares

babinro wrote:

Why does OML need a nerf exactly?

I'm typically on board with character balance threads including nerfs but I don't see it with OML. Yes he's considered the best 5* and thus best character in the game but he's not actually a broken character.

Phoenix kills things quicker than OML and her revival skill is pretty reliable making her a wonderful true healer as well. Green Goblin can spike damage a character to death from full health very quickly. If you get an OML enemy team down to just OML and he's easy to take out with other 5*'s.

On offense OML needs a LOT of time to setup. Beyond the 9 black and 12 yellow you need to prep him to transform. Doing so right away can easily lead to match loss because he no longer has true healing and his yellow AoE damage is WEAK for 5* tier play. As a 5* tier player fighting against others of the same tier I typically won't transform OML until 16 yellow, 8+ red and 16 black. Because of that AP investment I typically don't transform him at all. He's just a damage sponge that produces strikes.

OML stands out because he's super powerful with very few covers against 4* enemies. Something that's not true with any other 5*. His true healing is amazing against 4* teams as well. These are NOT reasons to nerf a character though.

Completely agree with you.

OML is the most used 5 because he is very good but there are also a lot of other reasons, not because he is OP, it is more because SS is super lame (worst of all 5s by fair margin) and then OML has been around for more time than the rest of the 5s. Another very important reason is because he heals, so you can use him for longer periods of time without using health packs.

GG is arguably much powerful for PvP than OML, but he has been around for very little time. Spidey can also easily kill OML using his green/blue doing damage and stunning him. OML almost never transform, as you said you need to gather a lot of AP before you do it, so when it transforms is just to end the fight. And in defense other chars like Spidey or GG can easily kill him without suffering that much damage (again, SS needs a buff).

So yeah, everybody uses OML, FOR NOW, because it is the best of the first batch of 5s. If I had 7-9+ GG covers I would use OML just to climb, and then GG for the rest of the fights. Truth to be told, I think GG is far much more OP than OML.

mpqr7

OML is not that hard to beat. Like any Wolverine, you can't simply try to beat him with match damage. You need to stack up a bunch of power moves and wipe him out all at once.

Or else deny black and yellow (particularly black) while you beat his teammates, so that his heal nerfs itself. Suddenly a massive 1500+ heal becomes a 500+ heal, which isn't any better than patch's heal. Presumably by the time you've beaten his two pals, you have gathered enough ap and dmg bonuses to take him down quickly.

Even when it's a oml/ph team, I hurt ph until she's almost dead, and then I take them both out.



I do agree that SS should get a buff. He's very weak now. The SS dmg should increase, and the SS cost should decrease, so that he causes more mayhem. Now, even when I fight him at around lv 400, he basically only gets off one attack before I've taken him down.

slidecage

they nerf OLd man then i demand they nerf every 5 star i dont own.

Jaedenkaal

aesthetocyst wrote:

So, again, if they trotted out a 5* Aunt May, you better believe that, in this game at least, she would pound a 2* Wolvie. With match damage alone. She could leave the rolling pin at home. Only needs that vs. 4*s or higher, haha.

So then... you're saying that she would be powerful because she's a 5*. IE she's powerful because she's rare.

SnowcaTT

slidecage wrote:

they nerf OLd man then i demand they nerf every 5 star i dont own.

They should nerf all the 5*'s, at least the match damage. You see tons of 1 cover 5*'s out there in early PVP's and throughout LR's because the 2*/3* rosters -have- to run that as their best scarecrow. Somewhat due to level, somewhat due to health - but mostly due to that match damage!

And also due to healing, which several of the 5*'s have. True healing should either go from OML, or be added back into every other character that had it. No more prologue healing anymore, why not? Would make some characters playable (Beast, Spiderman).

MPQ_Daywalker

aesthetocyst wrote:

Can't speak for everyone, but I don't run my fledgling 5s in LRs and early PVP as scarecrows. I run them because they are most efficient choice vs. seeds and trivials. Saves vets time and helps newer players with single-cover 5s quickly clear the lowhanging fruit while preserving their main roster.

Not to mention vets with single-cover 5s like me

Same here, and I would guess for many others. Trivial/seed nodes are the only time I ever feel safe to use a non-leveled 5*. And with trivial nodes seemingly on their way out, and the prologue locked... that really only leaves seed teams in early PVP and LRs to use your 5*s on. A team of any combination of 5* speeds up a seed match (on match damage alone) so considerably I don't see any reason not to use them on seeds. I know that my 2/0/0 OML isn't going to scare anybody but that is definitely not the reason I'm using him.

To bring things back to the OP: If OML is the only scary character on a team, I'm usually willing to take on that battle. Bring someone who stuns, leave him for last, and/or finish the battle quickly before the enemy team kicks off their powers (so OML's red doesn't fire) and you're good. He isn't impossible to beat, but he is (I assume) super fun to play on offense and a great way to not use health packs on a climb. I think the reason you see more of him than any other 5* is because, as others have pointed out in this thread, he is much more useable with fewer covers than the other 5*s, so people can bring him to level 345 (with a 2/2/2) and then actually use him in PVP against 4* and lower teams.

Calnexin

HaywireII wrote:

Passive: Prevents enemy team from regenerating health (20% to 100% at 1 to 5 covers).

I think it would be awesome if they introduced a 1* character as a counter. That old bald doctor with a syringe who's always menacing Wolverine in flashbacks. Put him in there with three powers directly geared toward countering the more powerful abilities. If you're attacking, he's going to be the last man standing in most cases, because anyone else would tank for him. On defense, he's useless - first one taken out because he's annoying with low health.

Jaedenkaal

Calnexin wrote:

HaywireII wrote:

Passive: Prevents enemy team from regenerating health (20% to 100% at 1 to 5 covers).

I think it would be awesome if they introduced a 1* character as a counter. That old bald doctor with a syringe who's always menacing Wolverine in flashbacks. Put him in there with three powers directly geared toward countering the more powerful abilities. If you're attacking, he's going to be the last man standing in most cases, because anyone else would tank for him. On defense, he's useless - first one taken out because he's annoying with low health.

And then he dies from an Anger AOE and you feel sad.

Calnexin

aesthetocyst wrote:

fight4thedream wrote:

If they release a 5* Aunt May, syhe will pound 2* Wolvie.

Idea time!

What if they released something like that - a 4 or 5* character that's basically a ****. Aunt May, Non-hammered Thor, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark sans-armor, baby Magneto, etc. They basically do nothing in the match, but if you keep them alive you get something out of the meta - extra Iso, boosts, health packs, etc. More covers translate to better rewards, rather than greater power.

It'd have to be done right, because that's really easy to abuse unless rewards are tied to threat level.