Polarity's Guide on Going From 1* to 3* (Updated: 1/22/15)

NorthernPolarity

evanbernstein wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The maxing out 2 guys strategy was ideal back in the day, but PvE scaling has ruined this as well.

Yeah, based on this piece of advice in the guide I upped Captain America 3* to 114 and then 127 as soon as I got the covers to do so. My only other 3* is a 102 Falcon. PVE got a *lot* harder when I upped Captain, which sucks.

If you can quickly update your post to include that PVE scaling that would be great so others don't fall into the same trap.

Glad to know that the consensus seems to be highest character level so I'll work on moving other characters up to 127 and no higher until I have enough of them to risk PVE getting even worse.

Granted, that will be a *long* time from now given that I can't compete in PVP too well and PVE just got harder. Oh well, MPQ does hate the 2* > 3* transitioner right now.

Thanks for the guide, it is great!

Done. Sorry about the bad advice, I should have updated the guide sooner.

Quebbster

Trisul wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

I use Inferno a lot, but then I mostly run Torch with Captain Marvel and Daken, which means I don't need to worry about the AP drain and I have plenty of strike tiles boosting the damage. Also, my Torch happens to be 5/5/3 as that is how the covers fell, but I wouldn't mind making him at least 5/4/4 instead.

Wouldn't you just use Captain Marvel's black? It seems much better than Torch's. Also, Torch is your only green outlet in that team.

It depends a lot. Each Inferno tile does 224 damage and Hypersonic Punch deals 2500 damage, so once 12 attack tiles have gone off Inferno deals more damage than Hypersonic Punch. I like attack tiles a lot, the damage adds up very fast.
And yes, Torch is the only green user, which means I avoid matching green to not expose Torch.

Trisul

Quebbster wrote:

It depends a lot. Each Inferno tile does 224 damage and Hypersonic Punch deals 2500 damage, so once 12 attack tiles have gone off Inferno deals more damage than Hypersonic Punch. I like attack tiles a lot, the damage adds up very fast.
And yes, Torch is the only green user, which means I avoid matching green to not expose Torch.

This makes sense for the most part. But against strong green users (and there are a lot of them), it can potentially backfire.

yogi_

Very interesting still re: 2* HT.

Are we any closer to a recommendation? I have enough covers to change green or black to 5... but I still can't quite work out which way to go.

NorthernPolarity

yogi_ wrote:

Very interesting still re: 2* HT.

Are we any closer to a recommendation? I have enough covers to change green or black to 5... but I still can't quite work out which way to go.

Torch / Marvel / Daken is a team that is way beyond my limited view of the 2* metagame. My recommendation for 5 black was under the assumption that every single 2* team is running either Thor or Ares, which was the case before because they basically defined the 2* meta, and how back then Torch was the only real black user in 2* land. Now that Ms. Marvel has shaken that up and teams are being used that don't include Thor or Ares anymore, I'm not really sure what to say. Honestly, you should probably just go with whatever team you play Torch more on. In any Ares/Thor composition, a 3 green Torch is clearly the right way to go. Otherwise, mixing it up and going 4 green 5 black if you want Torch to be flexible, or 5 green if Torch is really the sole green user on your team is fine as well.

Vhailorx

With respect to pve scaling, I leveled up a few 3*s last month and so far I can report a modest but not outrageous increase in my pve scaling.

I had a level 130 cap with everyone else at 94 for several weeks and that didn't seem much different than having a max 2* roster.

A few weeks ago I brought patch up to 153 and bumped cap up to 140. And during the most recent Hulk event I bumped punisher up to 114 after getting a 10th and 11th cover for him,

In all subsequent pves (ie those that I joined AFTER leveling), my base difficulty has gone up a bit. But not too much. the hard nodes that used to start around 100 are now starting around 106. (fwiw, I tend to place fairly well (top 10) in pve, so any "past performance" element of my pve scaling would be high too)

I have avoided bringing any 3*s to max level just to be safe in terms of scaling. but overall, I don't think this change is insurmountable. And it has made a difference in the ease with which I can get top 100 pvp (still working on top 25 in pvp). I don't yet regret the decision, but I am very happy that I don't have 1 character at 166 and everyone else at 94. That might make things very difficult when my one heavy hitter was unavailable.

Unknown

In the next update Doctor Doom needs to move up the list significantly. With the third color he's actually quite good, his ability to generate black tiles also plays well with Luke Cage for damage. I haven't max covered him, but I'm thinking 3-5-5.

NorthernPolarity

Updated Doom, Daredevil, Patch descriptions. Lazily copied mm's decription for Ms Marvel and added that as well.

amarrero

FAQs:

What level should I level character X to?
It might seem obvious to just level all your characters to 166, but leveling takes an intense amount of iso, and it turns out that you can still reap most of the benefits out of a character while spending a fraction of the iso, as leveling someone to 135 takes 60% of the iso needed to max someone out, and makes that character 80% as effective as its maxed counterpart, which is generally good enough for PvE and when the character is boosted for PvP. Here are some numbers that I recommend leveling 3* characters to (4*s are more complicated and I'll add that later maybe).

166 - The obvious one, level all your guys that you will constantly use in PvP / PvE.

For when you want your character to be a strong PvP defensive deterrent and usable in a PvE B team even when not boosted -
137 - This gets your character above level 200 when major boosted in a PvP (which is a big defensive deterrent), and allows that character to tank for your 166 characters when it is minor boosted in a PvE. Level your guys that you use only when boosted that you DO want tanking for other characters (She-Hulk, etc) when they are featured.
135 - This gets your character above level 200 when major boosted in a PvP (which is a big defensive deterrent), and allows OTHER 166 characters to tank for your character when it is minor boosted in a PvE. Level your guys that you use only when boosted that you do NOT want tanking for other characters (squishies like Mohawk, etc) when they are featured.

For when you want your character to be an okay defensive deterrent in PvP.
118 - This gets your character to 178 when featured in a PvP, which is when they tank for a level 270 4*. This is important for say the Daredevil tournament, as it makes opposing X-Forces surgical strike hit purple, which is a terrible color to use.
114 - Doesn't tank for a 270 4*.
112 - This gets your character to 168 when featured in a PvP, which allows them to tank for your other 166 3*s.
110 - 165 boosted, so doesn't tank for your other 3*s.

Any word how this part is affected by the R69 update? If I recall, D3 modified the scaling a bit just that the scaling when buffed scales more like a 4* character.

Unknown

I would HEAVILY suggest new players go for Patch Loki Hood as their first 3* to cover. I had to buy most of the covers but do not regret it. I have gone from hitting ~400 in pvp and getting nothing to actually being able to get T50/T100 reliably and Top 8 in LR since the villains (Hood & Loki) are boosted. I can now take on ~ 230 lvl Xforce/4Thor with my highest 3* only being 127 atm. The ISO from LR is helping tremendously.

The 2-->3 transition is absolutely horrendous, but this has made me actually enjoy the game. Night & day difference.

There is no way to max cover FTP a single 3* even with 6 months of day in day out gameplay imho.

NorthernPolarity

Updated guide with Squirrel Girl (top of low tier), modified Hulk's description slightly to mention Hulk/Patch combo.

Separated the tiers more cleanly: instead of it being mostly arbitrary, it's now separated based off of whether or not it's worth leveling the character and messing up your PvE scaling for. Also moved around some characters:
Daken - demoted to mid tier. True healing rocks, but he can't carry a team with his damage and so doesn't belong in top tier.
Colossus - Now the gateway between low and mid tier - he's almost there, but mediocre enough that he can't carry a team.
Deadpool / Loki - Promoted to above Colossus, because I previously overrated Colossus, and these two are actually good enough to invest iso into.

amarrero wrote:

FAQs:

What level should I level character X to?
It might seem obvious to just level all your characters to 166, but leveling takes an intense amount of iso, and it turns out that you can still reap most of the benefits out of a character while spending a fraction of the iso, as leveling someone to 135 takes 60% of the iso needed to max someone out, and makes that character 80% as effective as its maxed counterpart, which is generally good enough for PvE and when the character is boosted for PvP. Here are some numbers that I recommend leveling 3* characters to (4*s are more complicated and I'll add that later maybe).

166 - The obvious one, level all your guys that you will constantly use in PvP / PvE.

For when you want your character to be a strong PvP defensive deterrent and usable in a PvE B team even when not boosted -
137 - This gets your character above level 200 when major boosted in a PvP (which is a big defensive deterrent), and allows that character to tank for your 166 characters when it is minor boosted in a PvE. Level your guys that you use only when boosted that you DO want tanking for other characters (She-Hulk, etc) when they are featured.
135 - This gets your character above level 200 when major boosted in a PvP (which is a big defensive deterrent), and allows OTHER 166 characters to tank for your character when it is minor boosted in a PvE. Level your guys that you use only when boosted that you do NOT want tanking for other characters (squishies like Mohawk, etc) when they are featured.

For when you want your character to be an okay defensive deterrent in PvP.
118 - This gets your character to 178 when featured in a PvP, which is when they tank for a level 270 4*. This is important for say the Daredevil tournament, as it makes opposing X-Forces surgical strike hit purple, which is a terrible color to use.
114 - Doesn't tank for a 270 4*.
112 - This gets your character to 168 when featured in a PvP, which allows them to tank for your other 166 3*s.
110 - 165 boosted, so doesn't tank for your other 3*s.

Any word how this part is affected by the R69 update? If I recall, D3 modified the scaling a bit just that the scaling when buffed scales more like a 4* character.

Yeah, I need to modify this part of the guide soon.

Unknown

Thanks for updating the guide again. Invaluable! Daken dropped from top tier to middle of mid-tier. What happened? He hasn't changed recently.

amarrero

joecoolmd wrote:

Thanks for updating the guide again. Invaluable! Daken dropped from top tier to middle of mid-tier. What happened? He hasn't changed recently.

My guess is that Luke Cage and Dr. Doom pushed him down. Laken is still great for sustained play but he won't carry a team by itself.

NorthernPolarity

amarrero wrote:

joecoolmd wrote:

Thanks for updating the guide again. Invaluable! Daken dropped from top tier to middle of mid-tier. What happened? He hasn't changed recently.

My guess is that Luke Cage and Dr. Doom pushed him down. Laken is still great for sustained play but he won't carry a team by itself.

Daken's still near the top of mid-tier. The main reason why I chose to do this is power creep. Instead of facing the LazyThor / CMags wall (which was the leading team back when Daken was placed), players now have to deal with the XF / LadyThor wall. Daken's true healing was good enough to merit him a top tier slot for a long time, but as amarrero said, he now can't deal enough damage to take down the new top tier of 10k hp+ characters. His inability to carry a team has reduced him now to mid tier.

loroku

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Updated guide with Squirrel Girl (top of low tier),

Completely agreed. Very disappointed in her, overall. One thing that might be worth mentioning is that she has great synergy with Patch green, if you already have a good Patch (which you don't, because he's been vaulted so long the only way you have one worth playing is if you're past the 2*->3* transition). But still too niche for transitioners.

NorthernPolarity

So I've been in contact with IceIX, and he linked me to this post on the forums regarding PvE scaling: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5451. It turns out that leveling your guys does NOT matter, and that the main factor that affects scaling is how much damage you take during a match. Specifically, it's the HP % differential from when you start the match to when you end the match, with the node difficulty taken into account (the game won't lower your levels if you deliberately wipe to a trivial node that you shouldn't be wiping in). Leveling characters indirectly affects it because your guys start off with more HP and take less damage, but there isn't anything explicitly programmed that says "if your highest guy is level 270, +70 levels). I'm going to revise my guide at some point to reflect this, but my original advice of leveling two guys to max is still the optimal way to go then. The only thing that deliberately underleveling your guys will do is make it easier for you to lose more % HP (since your guys are lower HP to begin with). Leveling 3*s therefore can only hurt you, since you can get the same effect as having a 2* roster by just taking more damage during fights.

Trisul

NorthernPolarity wrote:

So I've been in contact with IceIX, and he linked me to this post on the forums regarding PvE scaling: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5451. It turns out that leveling your guys does NOT matter, and that the main factor that affects scaling is how much damage you take during a match. Specifically, it's the HP % differential from when you start the match to when you end the match, with the node difficulty taken into account (the game won't lower your levels if you deliberately wipe to a trivial node that you shouldn't be wiping in). Leveling characters indirectly affects it because your guys start off with more HP and take less damage, but there isn't anything explicitly programmed that says "if your highest guy is level 270, +70 levels). I'm going to revise my guide at some point to reflect this, but my original advice of leveling two guys to max is still the optimal way to go then. The only thing that deliberately underleveling your guys will do is make it easier for you to lose more % HP (since your guys are lower HP to begin with). Leveling 3*s therefore can only hurt you, since you can get the same effect as having a 2* roster by just taking more damage during fights.

I almost wish you didn't post this. I was fine in my blissfully ignorant softcap leveling phase. Now I have to optimize for taking damage!

Quebbster

NorthernPolarity wrote:

So I've been in contact with IceIX, and he linked me to this post on the forums regarding PvE scaling: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5451. It turns out that leveling your guys does NOT matter, and that the main factor that affects scaling is how much damage you take during a match. Specifically, it's the HP % differential from when you start the match to when you end the match, with the node difficulty taken into account (the game won't lower your levels if you deliberately wipe to a trivial node that you shouldn't be wiping in). Leveling characters indirectly affects it because your guys start off with more HP and take less damage, but there isn't anything explicitly programmed that says "if your highest guy is level 270, +70 levels). I'm going to revise my guide at some point to reflect this, but my original advice of leveling two guys to max is still the optimal way to go then. The only thing that deliberately underleveling your guys will do is make it easier for you to lose more % HP (since your guys are lower HP to begin with). Leveling 3*s therefore can only hurt you, since you can get the same effect as having a 2* roster by just taking more damage during fights.

Guess I should cut back my Patch/Daken abuse then.

Trisul

Two things are bothering me about IceIX's clarification:

1. The game actually punishes you for playing well. This includes using true healers to regen through fights, includes taking less damage via shielders/tanks like Colossus and Luke Cage, and rewards PvE tanking (which is a mechanic that should not be rewarded on principle). I don't think that's good design philosophy, especially when PvE is competitive. Gauntlet scaling seems counter-intuitive to this too.
2. There's so many anecdotes about people leveling one guy and their PvE scaling going up _immediately_. Is he 100% sure that the dev team hasn't tweaked it since that post? His later post in that thread seems to also talk about the possibilities of regular behind-the-scenes tweaks happening to their scaling formulas....

Unknown

So can you tank harder nodes then? I know it says you can't tank trivial...but what about throwing a "C" team at a hard/deadly node?

I'll test it next clear.