*** Black Panther (T'Challa) ***

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

This is really my main beef with the skill. Hulk and Rags lose favourable spots as tanks when characters like Patch and Panther get the best of both worlds.

Right now, I think Patch+Panther is the best team. I feel they are very reminiscent of Thor+Wolvie. And we all know how that turned out.

The only thing that is preventing me from calling them OP is that SpideyMags exists. But with their upcoming balance change...

That's the team I would use. Berserker Rage followed by Panther Rage and then clean up with Best There Is or just match damage with all the strike dmg added. Game over in 90 secs.

over_clocked

mechgouki wrote:

I am in total agreement.

Here is what I have to say to people who are crying out for a nerf.

STFU.

Some whiners QQ about every character that is actually usable, and won't be satisfied until that character gets a kick in the balls and becomes impotent.

Some characters are just simply OP.

DEAL WITH IT!

I concur.
Clearly oBW is an overpowered 2**, what's with the game-breaking AP steal and healing, while Black Panther is a solid 3*** and not overpowered in any way!

Unknown

MTGOFerret wrote:

Eh well there is where i disagree and say that a 141 SHOULD be able to annihilate a 85 (80%+ win rate) also but keep in mind you're comparing a tank vs dps in your comparison. It might be more appropriate to compare Hulk to Thor, or Punisher to wolvie and with that in mind things seem about right.

And yeah i understand where you're coming from on that end but honestly it's also a drawback in that you don't get any 3rd active ability and truthfully not the hardest thing in the world to spike him down.

The minor boosts are about 40 levels of buff and a 2* is generally stronger than a 3* if both are of roughly the same power/classification (neither are particularly over or underpowered) after the minor boost. Just looking at the tile strength you'll see that it's not intended for 3* to be that much stronger than a 2*. At any rate BP would also annihilate a team of 3* quite easily. It's 4000 damage to team, so you got to deal 5400 damage to a team of non tank 3* that has 5800 HP. If it takes 15 turns to collect 12 black AP (reasonable when there's no AP acceleration) and you do 150 damage on average from match 3 each turn, that's 1800 damage so you got another 3600 damage left. 15 turns gets you 45 AP, subtract 12 for Rage, you have 33 AP to do 3600 damage. That's very easy to do given red/green readily converts to damage at about 1 AP per 200. This is pretty modest consider it assumes you made 15 moves that are all just match 3 and never anything better.

As a player I think Patch is fine. But if I'm a designer, his ability is just asking for problems because you've to be really sure you thought of all the scenarios to both leverage it, and all the ways to actually counter it. I think the two are fairly balanced right now, but that can also change depending on new abilities/characters. It's one of those thing that permanently increases the complexity of any balancing effort so if I'm a dev, I'd just get rid of it rather than hoping I can always think of every possible scenario that involves regen and make sure they're all balanced.

nihilium

...
I dont get it why these last days as soon as a character gets a somehow "new" ability everyone just screams nerf o.o
(without actually seeing said char in action atleast once...)

Imho we dont need nerfs, we need more diverse new characters with diverse abilitys.
Whats makes many of the so called OP chars so OP (like OBW, hood, sqishy lil thingys...) is that compared to a team with 3 dmg dealers anything that does somethings BUT pure dmg seems automatically OP.

Imagine we had a char with a 3* version of storms yellow ability or a 3* version of daken/bullseyes everymatch=tile ability (just imagine a match = teamheal ability! xD). Ppl would kick OBW and start using those.
But we dont get them, so the AP generating & healing chars stay unique and thus overused.

Nerfing everything that doesnt fit the 8AP = 1k dmg quota and every char gets the same red/green/? atk skills so isnt the way too go >.>

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

At any rate BP would also annihilate a team of 3* quite easily. It's 4000 damage to team, so you got to deal 5400 damage to a team of non tank 3* that has 5800 HP.

This highlights one issue with BP. Unlike GSBW who has moderate health, BP has high health. Basically, to (minmax) counter BP you need your own high health character, which the best choice is BP. So the game turns into BP vs BP.

over_clocked

nihilium wrote:

...
Nerfing everything that doesnt fit the 8AP = 1k dmg quota and every char gets the same red/green/? atk skills so isnt the way too go >.>

Are you typing with a touchscreen?
Anyway I get what you're trying to say, but in his current implementation BP is worse than Devil Dino. I don't mind him staying as he is, but then clearly the entire game will shift around BP, like it used to with Ragnarok. And then you know the inevitable outcome.

Unknown

nihilium wrote:

...
I dont get it why these last days as soon as a character gets a somehow "new" ability everyone just screams nerf o.o
(without actually seeing said char in action atleast once...)

Imho we dont need nerfs, we need more diverse new characters with diverse abilitys.
Whats makes many of the so called OP chars so OP (like OBW, hood, sqishy lil thingys...) is that compared to a team with 3 dmg dealers anything that does somethings BUT pure dmg seems automatically OP.

Imagine we had a char with a 3* version of storms yellow ability or a 3* version of daken/bullseyes everymatch=tile ability (just imagine a match = teamheal ability! xD). Ppl would kick OBW and start using those.
But we dont get them, so the AP generating & healing chars stay unique and thus overused.

Nerfing everything that doesnt fit the 8AP = 1k dmg quota and every char gets the same red/green/? atk skills so isnt the way too go >.>

This post is strange to me because you seem to be describing basically the opposite of what people wanting a BP nerf are saying.

BP's black isn't interestingly "new". It costs AP and deals damage. What's novel about it is just that it does much, much more damage than other skills. This isn't some weird new mechanic that's hard to sort out on paper - if you've tried to save up for Spiderman's yellow or Patch's red or Magneto's purple you're going to have a pretty good feel for how hard it is to collect the AP you need, and the damage works just like every other skill that does damage, just with higher numbers. People aren't saying that BP's yellow and blue are way too strong. The claim is that he's OP as a damage-dealer, so it's really weird that you seem to think you're arguing with these people by saying that characters that aren't damage-dealers are going to appear to be more powerful than they really are, in some sense.

Unknown

Some abilities are subtle and takes time to see how they impact the game. There's nothing subtle about an ability that basically kills anyone who isn't a tank.

If Devil Dino was released as a character you wouldn't need very long to realize a character with insane HP that kills anybody with 6g is going to cause problems. And Black Pantehr is arguably worse.

over_clocked

Phantron wrote:

Some abilities are subtle and takes time to see how they impact the game. There's nothing subtle about an ability that basically kills anyone who isn't a tank.

If Devil Dino was released as a character you wouldn't need very long to realize a character with insane HP that kills anybody with 6g is going to cause problems. And Black Pantehr is arguably worse.

BP is worse than Dino for exactly that reason, players have access to him. I already said that I don't mind people having access to good stuff, but BP just leaves no reason to get and level any other guy. le sad.

nihilium

Gotchaye wrote:

nihilium wrote:

...
I dont get it why these last days as soon as a character gets a somehow "new" ability everyone just screams nerf o.o
(without actually seeing said char in action atleast once...)

Imho we dont need nerfs, we need more diverse new characters with diverse abilitys.
Whats makes many of the so called OP chars so OP (like OBW, hood, sqishy lil thingys...) is that compared to a team with 3 dmg dealers anything that does somethings BUT pure dmg seems automatically OP.

Imagine we had a char with a 3* version of storms yellow ability or a 3* version of daken/bullseyes everymatch=tile ability (just imagine a match = teamheal ability! xD). Ppl would kick OBW and start using those.
But we dont get them, so the AP generating & healing chars stay unique and thus overused.

Nerfing everything that doesnt fit the 8AP = 1k dmg quota and every char gets the same red/green/? atk skills so isnt the way too go >.>

This post is strange to me because you seem to be describing basically the opposite of what people wanting a BP nerf are saying.

BP's black isn't interestingly "new". It costs AP and deals damage. What's novel about it is just that it does much, much more damage than other skills. This isn't some weird new mechanic that's hard to sort out on paper - if you've tried to save up for Spiderman's yellow or Patch's red or Magneto's purple you're going to have a pretty good feel for how hard it is to collect the AP you need, and the damage works just like every other skill that does damage, just with higher numbers. People aren't saying that BP's yellow and blue are way too strong. The claim is that he's OP as a damage-dealer, so it's really weird that you seem to think you're arguing with these people by saying that characters that aren't damage-dealers are going to appear to be more powerful than they really are, in some sense.

This wasnt actually to BP, this was to someonce screaming for a OBW nerf 2-3 posts ago, and to ppl calling Hoods blue "broken"
(How do u nerf a char that doesnt even have an offensive dmg dealing ability? Make her completely useless? o.o)

PorkBelly

Seems silly to be predicting a nerf for a character less than 24 hours after he was released.

Especially in light of the history with Ragnarok and the recent situation with Thor and Wolverine.

When the developers release a new character in that context, it would seem borderline incompetent on their part to nerf said character in a short time frame.

Unknown

PorkBelly wrote:

Seems silly to be predicting a nerf for a character less than 24 hours after he was released.

Especially in light of the history with Ragnarok and the recent situation with Thor and Wolverine.

When the developers release a new character in that context, it would seem borderline incompetent on their part to nerf said character in a short time frame.

Psylocke's blue was nerfed within one day. Take that into consideration.

Unknown

The issue with this attack is a basic game design problem that you can find all the time in trading card games. The people that made MtG have fallen into this pit again and again.

If you make an ability that does something that is far stronger than its costs, in exchange for a disadvantage, you have to make sure the disadvantage actually happens! If the enemy team dies because you played the ability, then you better have a cost that happens way before the ability happens, or that at least downs a character on your team.

You could get into trouble even with things less obvious than handing people damage. Imagine an ability that cost 8, and said: Get 20 of every color, your opponent gets 40. You could instead write it as '8: you win the game', because you will never give up a turn after getting 20 on all colors. The ability would probably still be broken if you gained 10.

So in a Puzzle Quest world, there are very few safe ways of providing disadvantages to characters in exchange for undercosted abilities, because the design space is pretty limited. You could give the ability to someone that does more damage than usual, and has less hp than usual, as to make that person vulnerable. You could have the ability say 'this ends your turn', but that's not a fun mechanic. You could also attach a negative passive to the ability, but that's already expanding the current design space, unless you want to count 'Avoid' as negative.

Unknown

PorkBelly wrote:

Seems silly to be predicting a nerf for a character less than 24 hours after he was released.

Especially in light of the history with Ragnarok and the recent situation with Thor and Wolverine.

When the developers release a new character in that context, it would seem borderline incompetent on their part to nerf said character in a short time frame.

They did it with Psylocke and her blue ability. It's incompetent to release a character like Black Panther with the experience they've had with Rags and Thorverine. To give a tank a better attack than a full skilled out sniper rifle is a serious lack of competence. At least with sniper rifle it's on a character with half the hit points and cost 7 more ap.

over_clocked

nihilium wrote:

This wasnt actually to BP, this was to someonce screaming for a OBW nerf 2-3 posts ago, and to ppl calling Hoods blue "broken"
(How do u nerf a char that doesnt even have an offensive dmg dealing ability? Make her completely useless? o.o)

Uh, that was my post.

Moral

The average standard health of a 3 star is 5800. For 2 stars it is around 3500.

IM40 blue comes in at 2669 to all at 20 + 2 per color.

GSBW green is 3336 to all at 19 AP.

I suppose that MMR should keep anyone with a 141 BP team from farming 2 star / sub 100 3 star teams, but I think everyone knows that won't happen in reality. My highest character is 96 and I still run across level 141 Punishers.

It's like looking through your PVP nodes and seeing a player with a level 230 venom. Sure you can grind them down, but retaliation takes them all of 90 seconds.

Unknown

They are completely aware of how much damage he does, and rolled him out that way. Unless of course they have a monkey doing the testing for them.

This is bait and switch. Get people excited about a new cover. Spend more time in the game trying to obtain it, more money on purchases, etc. Then a few months down the line, the oh so "fun" balance will hit.

nihilium

locked wrote:

nihilium wrote:

This wasnt actually to BP, this was to someonce screaming for a OBW nerf 2-3 posts ago, and to ppl calling Hoods blue "broken"
(How do u nerf a char that doesnt even have an offensive dmg dealing ability? Make her completely useless? o.o)

Uh, that was my post.

I luv u right now, that pic so made my day <333

Unknown

Kalem45 wrote:

They are completely aware of how much damage he does, and rolled him out that way. Unless of course they have a monkey doing the testing for them.

This is bait and switch. Get people excited about a new cover. Spend more time in the game trying to obtain it, more money on purchases, etc. Then a few months down the line, the oh so "fun" balance will hit.

Actually I've found a lot of game you basically have like two camps of designers in the same company, and this ability is probably designed by the team that thought Devil Dino was a playable character.

Unknown

Kalem45 wrote:

Unless of course they have a monkey doing the testing for them.

You say this as if it's not a possibility.