Malcrof's take on the exploit and forum reaction

lukewin

Hmmm, makes you wonder about those 17 4* from a 40 pack Malcrof pulled....

Just kidding, since I don't think you can re-roll a 40pk. This was my attempt to troll.

TLCstormz

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....the mods, admins, etcs CANNOT just "say whatever we want to say, because we are real people, too". It does not work like that, when you are "representing" a brand. And no, it matters not that they are not paid anything, either.

That would be like someone volunteering for a charity, then acting like a fool in public or having verbal diarrhea, while they are "on the job".

It is simply unprofessional and NOT the proper light that one would want the public to see their company / group / organization in. Period.

Lystrata

Malcrof wrote:

Ok, reading through this, and other than the joy of trolling Dr Strange i got from editing his post..

Here is my take on this exploit... 99% of the people i see are posting because:

<snip>Insert incredibly offensive and pro-cheating post here<snip>

I haven't posted in these forums in months. Kudos on being such a troll, and so offensive, as to have brought me back. Beyond the blatant offense in your post, I also don't see where you got 99% of people want to cheat from, out of this thread.

Most of what I'm seeing is actually:

A) Outrage that the developers knew about this and didn't do anything
Concern re: the possibility that these cheaters adversely affected the pulls of others (whether this is the case or not, it was still a note of concern)

and

C) (Which is where you might be getting yourself terribly confused) People defending cheaters to an extent, given the bug/glitch/whatever was known about and never actually fixed.

I do not see 99% of people lamenting the fact they weren't quick enough to cheat the system. You're entitled to your opinion, but this went beyond opinion to basically accusing the forum player base of being wannabe cheaters.

Repulsive.

lymang

Malcrof wrote:

Say what you want publicly as loud and angry as you want, but if you have ever seen someone win the lottery, or a jackpot at a casino.. and not wished there was an easy way for it to be you.. you are either already where you want to be.. or 99% lying.

.

I can't disagree with you more. This is a ridiculous generalization. There are plenty of people (myself included) who are not where we want to be and we are not lying when we say we have not considered trying an exploit (cheating).
I want nothing to do with cheating/using an exploit, here, or in Diablo 3 (which I play a good deal). I have not thought about using one. I resent the people who do use them, and I resent your implication that I'm lying when i say I would not want to try it.

The level of cynicism you express is sad to me.

Der_Lex

TLCstormz wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....the mods, admins, etcs CANNOT just "say whatever we want to say, because we are real people, too". It does not work like that, when you are "representing" a brand. And no, it matters not that they are not paid anything, either.

That would be like someone volunteering for a charity, then acting like a fool in public or having verbal diarrhea, while they are "on the job".

It is simply unprofessional and NOT the proper light that one would want the public to see their company / group / organization in. Period.

And you're still as wrong as the previous times you've said it.

Volunteer mods do not 'represent' a brand in any way. PR is not their responsibility, just like it isn't their job to make announcements or provide official information about the game.

Mods are there to keep the forum running smoothly, by enforcing forum rules, by helping users navigate and use the forum, and by doing 'janitorial' jobs like merging threads with the same subject, moving threads to appropriate (sub-forums), etc. The only thing that they are more accountable for than an average forum user is that their own moderation actions should not break forum rules or show unreasonable bias. Otherwise, what they can and can't say is exactly the same as for any other user, ie: as long as it doesn't break forum rules, it's absolutely fine. To imply that people who volunteer their time to keep the forum readable for other users should have fewer posting privileges themselves is ridiculously unfair and utter nonsense.

That being said, I do feel that Malcrofs posts, both personal and moderation-based, seem to have become a lot more cynical towards the playerbase in the past few months, occasionally (like with his initial reaction in here, which I strongly disagree with as well) bordering on hostile. And in that case, I think it's a fair question to ask if this is still a community that he actually wants to help moderate anymore... but that's something for him and/or the devs to decide.

Cypr3ss

Der_Lex wrote:

Volunteer mods do not 'represent' a brand in any way. PR is not their responsibility, just like it isn't their job to make announcements or provide official information about the game.

Ok just stop right there, because you are wrong. Moderators of any forum, paid or not, do represent the owner of said forum. That's why they're there, the owner of said forum would like things on their message boards to be conducted in a certain way, the moderators job is to uphold those standards. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Its not their job to make announcements, like "Everyone else is just jealous they didn't get to cheat too", but of course that doesn't always stop them.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

morph3us

Cypr3ss wrote:

Ok just stop right there, because you are wrong. Moderators of any forum, paid or not, do represent the owner of said forum. That's why they're there, the owner of said forum would like things on their message boards to be conducted in a certain way, the moderators job is to uphold those standards. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Agree to disagree there. That's why they have a moderator voice, and a non-moderator voice. The only other option would be for them to have two separate accounts, but for transparency's sake, it's better if it's the same account.

We're also thoroughly derailing the discussion here. Let's keep to discussing the exploit, not a moderator's role in the forums. If you have a problem with a moderator, take it up with Hi-Fi, or another mod. Malcrof's made a statement, people have rightfully made responses to that statement, so let's move on.

Der_Lex

Cypr3ss wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

Volunteer mods do not 'represent' a brand in any way. PR is not their responsibility, just like it isn't their job to make announcements or provide official information about the game.

Ok just stop right there, because you are wrong. Moderators of any forum, paid or not, do represent the owner of said forum.

Interesting. I've been a volunteer moderator for another video game company for almost 8 years now, and the first thing in our original forum rules regarding volunteer moderators was "Volunteer moderators do not represent this company in any way, shape or form.". Guess we've been doing it wrong all those years.

Cypr3ss wrote:

That's why they're there, the owner of said forum would like things on their message boards to be conducted in a certain way, the moderators job is to uphold those standards.

Mods are here to enforce forum rules, and to keep the forum running smoothly housekeeping-wise. They do so on behalf of the owners of the forum and/or the community, but that is absolutely not the same as representing either of those two parties. Don't put stuff in their job description that isn't there.

Cypr3ss wrote:

Its not their job to make announcements, like "Everyone else is just jealous they didn't get to cheat too", but of course that doesn't always stop them.

You seem to be confusing a personal opinion with an announcement here.

It's fine to disagree with Malcrof's opinions. I too think he's far too dismissive of legitimate concerns of other users. It's fine to call him out on that, user to user. It's fine to have the opinion that his attitude might not be a healthy one for a moderator to have (although if that's truly a concern, it's something you're better off contacting the devs about directly rather than turning it into a public debate, but that's the nature of outrage, I guess). But it's perfectly possible to disagree with his opinions without trying to apply **** double standards about mods not being allowed to have/post personal opinions that you and/or even the majority of the forum userbase might not like, because that is not and never has been part of the requirements of being a volunteer moderator.

wuweird

Der_Lex wrote:

But it's perfectly possible to disagree with his opinions without trying to apply tinykitty double standards about mods not being allowed to have/post personal opinions that you and/or even the majority of the forum userbase might not like, because that is not and never has been part of the requirements of being a volunteer moderator.

What about a moderator engaging in behaviour that would have seen anyone else get a warning? Sure, he can have his opinion, but he shouldn't be allowed to express it in a way that non-mods cannot. That is the double-standard that I think most are upset about.

Preeeeetty sure calling so many people cheats-in-waiting would classify as a non-constructive attack post if it had been anyone else.

mouser

TLCstormz wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....the mods, admins, etcs CANNOT just "say whatever we want to say, because we are real people, too". It does not work like that, when you are "representing" a brand. And no, it matters not that they are not paid anything, either.

That would be like someone volunteering for a charity, then acting like a fool in public or having verbal diarrhea, while they are "on the job".

It is simply unprofessional and NOT the proper light that one would want the public to see their company / group / organization in. Period.

I disagree. The mods are posters just like the rest of us. They're entitled to their own opinions outside of the role of modding, and don't have any obligation to represent D3 or Demiurge.

The admins and developers that post on the forums, yes they have an obligation to represent the company.

puppychow

lukewin wrote:

Hmmm, makes you wonder about those 17 4* from a 40 pack Malcrof pulled....

Just kidding, since I don't think you can re-roll a 40pk. This was my attempt to troll.

You better watch out! Malcrof might start using yellow color text to mod your post.

lukewin

I think the Malcrof issue is parallel to the LT exploit issue, in the following way. People are frustrated and resentment has built up over time about the actions of both, and when an opportunity presented itself (Malcrof's post / LT exploit announcement), people let loose everything that has built up. Just my opinion, that each issue might not have warranted the reactions we've seen, but the post/announcement was the crack that bust the dam wide open and the flood waters are flowing. Kinda what happens with the snowball effect / not addressing/resolving issues as they arise, you get a reaction to the other side based on the other side, not the single issue that is being discussed.

Pylgrim

Malcrof,

As someone whose job description is basically using their judgement to separate the right from the wrong in order to maintain a peaceful, happy and productive community, you have failed at one of the most important tasks given to you: to moderate yourself. Especially since there is no one else who can moderate you.

Yes, you are just another normal player, entitled to having your personal views, even if they are as jaded, pessimistic and borderline offensive as evidenced. However, as a mod with given authority and responsibilities, it is not your place to express them if they are going to bring controversy and hurt feelings to the a significant majority of the userbase. Such is the fate of those standing under the public's eye. It comes with the job, even if you are a volunteer.

As right as you may be that cheating is an almost unavoidable element of gaming, it is incredibly tone-deaf to try to belittle how monstrously unfair it is in a competitive F2P/P2W environment (I'm guessing it is a side-effect of your well-documented extraordinarily good luck; from your perspective, cheaters didn't get that much of an advantage). Think about it: people have invested hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars trying to be competitive in this game. How can you possibly not expect outrage when learning that some people have gotten much farther ahead for a fraction of the effort/money? Luck already has a deleterious effect on the highest levels of play and that alone is hard to stomach. The fact that some people maliciously give themselves an edge is intolerable. And so it is your blaming people of jealousy and impotence where sympathy is called.

A moderator's job is to keep the community in order. Casting aspersions and belittlement when people are reasonably outcrying a real issue with big implications is very definitely doing the opposite of what you should be doing, again, even if it is your actual personal opinion.

liminal_lad

I think it's worth saying that even if the mods do not technically represent d3, they're seen as unofficial representatives given the fact that this is the official forum for the game. Damage has already been done by the commentary here.

Some people don't cheat because they have ethics. Some people don't cheat because they're scared of getting caught. And some people, like myself, don't cheat partly because they have ethics and partly because they're far too lazy to jump through the hoops required to do it. Painting everyone with the same broad brush of "cheaters who just haven't cheated yet" will enrage people with ethics and encourage future cheating in everyone else, since you assume we/they are cheating anyways.

Even though you guys are unofficial mods, your words here have more authority and many people see you as unofficial mouthpieces for d3. Think about that when you post. You may be doing serious damage to the relationship between the hardcore fans and the MPQ team with these statements. I know this has all left a very bad taste in my mouth.

Der_Lex

liminal_lad wrote:

Even though you guys are unofficial mods, your words here have more authority and many people see you as unofficial mouthpieces for d3.

Then that's on those people, not on the mods. There are a lot of people out there that believe that vaccines cause autism too, but that doesn't make them right, nor does it mean the world needs to cater to their false opinions.

liminal_lad

You made my point for me. Even if vaccines don't cause autism, damage has been done because people believe they do. Although I see what you were going for, damage to d3's reputation and the potential death of innocent children and the resurgence of near-eradicated diseases are KIND OF on different scales. [edited for clarity]

Der_Lex wrote:

liminal_lad wrote:

Even though you guys are unofficial mods, your words here have more authority and many people see you as unofficial mouthpieces for d3.

Then that's on those people, not on the mods. There are a lot of people out there that believe that vaccines cause autism too, but that doesn't make them right, nor does it mean the world needs to cater to their false opinions.

liminal_lad

Just to beat a dead horse, it would be different if they were mods of a forum that was hosted elsewhere and wasn't on the official MPQ site. That creates the image of association with the game's creators even if the extent of that is really just "We saw you guys were frequent posters and super fans, want to mod this site for us for free?"

liminal_lad wrote:

You made my point for me. Even if vaccines don't cause autism, damage has been done because people believe they do. Although I see what you were going for, damage to d3's reputation and the potential death of innocent children and the resurgence of near-eradicated diseases are KIND OF on different scales. [edited for clarity]

Der_Lex wrote:

liminal_lad wrote:

Even though you guys are unofficial mods, your words here have more authority and many people see you as unofficial mouthpieces for d3.

Then that's on those people, not on the mods. There are a lot of people out there that believe that vaccines cause autism too, but that doesn't make them right, nor does it mean the world needs to cater to their false opinions.

thisone

Gothic, do you really think that starting of his post with the "joke", then going on an angry rant was NOT going to be misinterpreted?

The thing with the joke is the op didn't take offence because she knew what the pre-edit was. Now anyone after the fact wouldn't. Couple that with the rest of the subject matter and can you blame people for reacting the way they did?

I don't post on the forums much because in my opinion there is a lack of common sense amongst the modding team, which this incident highlights.

The Bob The

liminal_lad wrote:

Then that's on those people, not on the mods. There are a lot of people out there that believe that vaccines cause autism too, but that doesn't make them right, nor does it mean the world needs to cater to their false opinions.

Wait. Waitwaitwait. Vaccines DON'T cause autism? Way to bury the lede!

Der_Lex

liminal_lad wrote:

You made my point for me. Even if vaccines don't cause autism, damage has been done because people believe they do. Although I see what you were going for, damage to d3's reputation and the potential death of innocent children and the resurgence of near-eradicated diseases are KIND OF on different scales. [edited for clarity]

Der_Lex wrote:

liminal_lad wrote:

Even though you guys are unofficial mods, your words here have more authority and many people see you as unofficial mouthpieces for d3.

Then that's on those people, not on the mods. There are a lot of people out there that believe that vaccines cause autism too, but that doesn't make them right, nor does it mean the world needs to cater to their false opinions.

If you saw what I was going for, it's kind of disingenuous to still somehow imply that I was equating the two matters in terms of gravity, because then it becomes a strawman argument. Everybody knows that forum moderation is by far the more serious matter here.

There's also an important element here that's the crux of the point I was trying to make, though: the reputation of vaccines has only been damaged in the eyes of a group of uninformed and, frankly, stupid people... And I would use the same terms to describe the people who can't seem to grasp the concept that a volunteer moderator doesn't represent the devs in any way. I'm not a fan of allowing the (wilfully) ignorant and/or perpetually outraged to set the bar for the level of discourse.

I think it's also a bit of a double standard that everyone uses this forum to shoot the breeze and chat about the game in a casual manner, but when something like this happens (ie: a mod posts a controversial personal opinion on something), people go in outraged customer mode and it's official forums this and professionalism that. This place isn't D3 customer service, so we shouldn't treat it that way.

Either way, I realize that this is becoming a rather off-topic tangent to this thread, which is probably better off being separated into its own thread (and mea culpa for my contributions to the derail, but this is something I realize I do have rather strong opinions in).

As for the topic at hand: D3 is sloppy for not fixing this sooner, and everyone who used this method to cheat themselves into a better roster should be sandboxed, or at least have their roster rolled back to its pre-5* situation.