A 5* players frustrations with MPQ's matchmaking.

babinro

I'd like to start by acknowledging that this is about as '1st world problems' as it gets in the world of MPQ. No one should feel bad for my current problems but I feel that they are worthy of discussion.

My climb to 5* tier:
I'm among a select few whose been ridiculously lucky when it comes to Legendary token pulls. While I've spent plenty of money on MPQ in the past, I've not spent a dime since the announcement of 5* tier. My current roster is a direct result of reaching the LT rewards in pvps/pve's/ddq's combined with having a megawhale in my alliance which led to a good 20-30 'free' legendary token pulls. Statistically speaking I should be ahead of the curve but in reality I'm WAY ahead of the curve.

http://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/babinro/

Phoenix: 3/3/2 level 375
Old Man Logan: 1/5/1 level 360
Silver Surfer: 2/2/2 level 345

The "Problem"
So you completely luck out on this RNG system and get several five stars. Life is great, right?
Yes.

I've unquestionably received a HUGE competitive advantage in PvP as a result of my luck. I'm actually able to sit unshielded at scores of 1300+ sometimes without taking a single hit for hours at a time. It's pretty much exactly what you'd expect from the current state of 5* tier. Amazing!

So what's the problem?

D3 has clearly factored in the advent of 5* players and have made decisions that REALLY suck the fun out of the experience for us. To illustrate allow me to present the first 3 battles I'm faced with after clearing Lightning Round seed teams:

1) Mags (249) / Jean Grey (270) / OML (330)
2) Mags (249) / Red Hulk (270) / Silver Surfer (360)
3) Mags (249) / Silver Surfer (375) / OML (380)

Keep in mind I didn't rush my way through these seeds to only face off against the remaining top ranked players. This is the typical result I'll see whether starting immediately or 60 minutes into the Lightning Round.

The same is true in pvp.

Practically every match is against someone with a 5* character whose decently covered. This wouldn't be so bad if you could simply skip by them but the game makes that process challenging. Without embellishment I will FREQUENTLY cycle through the same 3 names every 5 or so skips. The skip costs of finding unique viable targets in pvp have SKYROCKETED for me because of my great luck. It's either that or I simply wage war with the same small handful of people repeatedly sniping each other the entire event. When you finally stumble across unique names they are often worth around 20 points to you. This is true as early as 200 points into a pvp by as well. There should be a TON of viable maxed 4* targets worth 40+ points to choose from but the MMR refuses to give them in a timely matter (if it ever does at all).

Do you know how PvE players have been complaining about yet another event featuring the same 5 Dark Alliance characters on repeat forever?

That's 5* tier right now in all non-PvE modes of play.

D3 has taken a precious reward that should be insanely fun and turned it into something that's quickly becoming dull and frustrating due to severe ISO skip taxes in pvp. As if ISO pressures weren't already high enough with the cost of leveling characters now.

Keep in mind I haven't brought up PvE scaling because quite frankly I consider it a minor problem compared to this one. I accept that 10,000 damage from Juggernaught's red is the norm for me after just a couple clears. That's fine. PvE was never particularly easy before 5* tier and it still isn't now. I simply have fewer viable 4*'s to use in PvE than I had before. The PvE side of things seems to be far more of an issue for lower end transitioning rosters than someone like me.

Solution
I want more variety in my team selection even if that means I'm picking on 4* rosters. Stop cycling the same names repeatedly forcing me to spend 1000's of ISO per pvp in skip costs alone. Something as simple as removing the ISO skip cost on the 3rd time a name comes up before your next fight would be WONDERFUL!

Discussion
I'm eager to see what others have to say about this.

Are fellow 5*'s experiencing the same things?
Do you find it frustrating or are you in MPQ heaven still?

Do players outside of 5* tier feel this is a problem?
Do you think my desire for change would ruin the game for you?

DrLemniscate

The weirdest thing about this is that if I do a late climb, I will almost only get matched against other players with 5* rosters. But then if I climb to 1st, I will see tons of varied names worth 1-4 points, all the way down to 1* rosters and even seed teams.

The initial skip loops can be broken out of eventually, not just hitting 1st. This was most annoying in shield sim where I was only seeing people with 5* rosters as low as 350 points. Finally climbed over 2k by hitting the same person 10 times because they were a known tiny kitty.

babinro

aesthetocyst wrote:

Hey, don't worry, Babs!

Just as soon as more people have more 5*s, the problem will correct itself and it'll be like you never had an advantage at all!

Hyuk, hyuk!

I wish I was joking.

In the meantime, congrats on the pulls!

Thanks.

You make a fair point for what it's worth. This is a problem simply because there's only three 5* characters to choose from AND there are so few players to pit you against.

The MMR seems to work the same as it does for 4* tier players who can no longer queue up 3*'s. In the long run this should mostly correct itself but for the time being it's unsatisfying to say the least.

fmftint

They don't give 4* players 2/3* opponents to beat up on. Don't hold your breath expecting them to give you below level matches either

mohio

Just to add another point of observation from another angle. My 4* aren't maxed, I have kept them at 240 on purpose for now. Anyhow, I will often run either 4*/buffed 3* or 4*/4* in PvP, and despite using mainly 4* these days, I cannot queue anyone running double 5*. I can queue 4*/5*, but not double 5*. So that guy could just keep on going up as high as he'd like and no matter the points, I still cannot find him.

rawfsu

Don't have any 5*'s to speak of, but I have noticed the same thing on my level. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and it needs to be addressed. There are literally hundreds of people in a PVP event at once. Stop putting up an invisible shield and give me access to every team. I hate double and triple tapping players, but what choice do I have? Waste more ISO, stop playing and get torn apart by attacks, or keeping picking on the same team? It's getting old very fast. I'm sure other players feel the same way.

lukewin

Sorry to hear all the trouble you've encountered because of your good luck. After reading through this thread and people's experiences with 5*/max 4*/max 3* rosters, I am glad I have underleveled my roster. I've got an OML red in my roster, and a Phoenix green to roster in the next 7 days. My 4*, I level to 200 and my 3*, I level to 140. Boosted 3* go to 200, so when I am playing PVP, I have a deep roster of level 200 characters to pull from, my 4* and my boosted 3*. In PVP, I get matched against all levels of teams. I still occasionally encounter a team with 2*, non-maxed 3*s, maxed 3*s, maxed boosted 3*s, non-maxed 4*s and maxed 4* teams. Since taking my 4* to 200, I am more confident in hitting 1k before shielding, since I have more characters to cycle through. When I only had my buffed 3*, I always shielded 1 match away from 1k. I think I am in the sweet spot of matchmaking, because other people have posted threads that PVP has become more difficult, while I seem to be having an easier go at it.

Do players outside of 5* tier feel this is a problem?

I do think this is a problem, and surprised, but not really, that MMR problems are present in the 5* tier. If my luck does change and I get usable 5*, I'd want to use them to beat up on the same teams I see now, not get bumped out of the sweet spot I'm in and have the game become less fun.

Do you think my desire for change would ruin the game for you?

I don't think your desire for change would ruin the game for me. I'd want you to continue playing since I do like your insights. I'm hoping that the upcoming changes will help out everyone, but outside of retooling Galactus 2nd run, there hasn't been too many positive changes since 5* have been introduced. Most things that have been introduced haven't lived up to the hype, but maybe that's because people are expecting too much.

Monged4life

I can kind of understand from the other perspective why they would want to block someone with 2/3 maxed out 5*s from just beating on the rest of the pool, as similar to maxed 4*s beating on maxed 2* teams... there's not really anything the 2* guy can do about it.

It wouldn't be so bad if once you got to that situation you had the option to temporarily turn off your 5*s so you could get to play with some of the other 80 characters on your roster. As soon as I saw how high 5*'s could potentially get to the obvious problem for me would be, do I want to play the game with my only viable option being to use those 5*s. Id miss the little guys...

dr tinykittylove

OJSP wrote:

It's times like this that makes me glad that my roster is not as advanced as some people.

lukewin wrote:

Do players outside of 5* tier feel this is a problem?

I do think this is a problem, and surprised, but not really, that MMR problems are present in the 5* tier. If my luck does change and I get usable 5*, I'd want to use them to beat up on the same teams I see now, not get bumped out of the sweet spot I'm in and have the game become less fun.

Maybe if we don't level our 5*s more than 270 (in fact, just leave them at 255), that's exactly what's going to happen.. which highlights the problem with the current matchmaking system in general. I think many people who wrote in the forum about having difficulty in reaching a certain amount of point target in PvPs (and to some extent being out scaled in PvEs).

It seems that the game has certain level thresholds that decides who we're being matched against. If we happen to fall into the sweet spot where our characters are powerful enough to beat maxed characters of that tier, but still being matched against characters lower than ours, we could perform really well in events. Especially because we could be theoretically invisible to players of higher tiers. (I mentioned this in one of the event threads.. One player with 1 5* and a 2* roster, managed to reach 1029 and stayed there unshielded. I couldn't queue this player despite being close to them in terms of points or ranking).

I think they did manage to cut off that angle of exploitation by tying 5* power to levels. So you could use your level 270 5*s but they might not even be as good as your buffed 3*s or maxed 4*s.

That 2+5 player probably falls in an intermediate mmr outside yours - during the ghost rider pvp I was seeing a lot more of them than I normally do.

SnowcaTT

Solution
I want more variety in my team selection even if that means I'm picking on 4* rosters. Stop cycling the same names repeatedly forcing me to spend 1000's of ISO per pvp in skip costs alone. Something as simple as removing the ISO skip cost on the 3rd time a name comes up before your next fight would be WONDERFUL!

When they changed MMR I had just started getting 3*'s maxed out, and transitioned out of 2* world. I came here and wondered - why was it that 3*'s had always been able to pick on my 2*'s, and now as a 3* -I- couldn't pick on the 2*'s?

I'm pretty well in 4* land now and there are about 30 options to choose? But I see primarily the same five characters over and over (HB/JG/Ice/Rhulk/Cyc).

So as someone that is picked on by 5*'s I have the same complaint - the MMR has been awful since they decided the tiers should no longer see each other.

Boommike

I don't jump into PVP discussion much since I don't participate frequently and feel I have less ground to stand on. But can someone explain why PVP matchmaking is determined by your whole roster? If I had a roster similar to yours babinro, as much as I'd love to play with the new shinies, I'd still love to play with my "old toys" (i.e. the 3*s and 4*s). Regardless of the lack of opponents, it sounds like you might be forced to use your 5*s even if you didn't want to due to opponent team makeup.
What I'm getting to is, why can't matchmaking be based on the three characters you've currently selected for your team? Why should babinro not be allowed (or even encouraged) to use the rest of his roster? If he wanted to PVP for a while with Stornmeto, just for ol' times' sake, he should absolutely be pitted against opponents with a similar team. But that probably wouldn't be feasible against the 5 teams he's seeing over and over.

Konman

The obvious solution, and its only obvious because its the only solution the devs have ever used, is to expand the tier in question by ever increasing numbers of characters while they nerf the over used characters.

So, we see where that will lead.

And getting all those covers from pulls? Consider me dubious.

GrumpySmurf1002

The one thing I've noticed with the matchmaking is that in the newer events (like Ghost Rider) where I only have 1-4 covers, I see considerably easier opponents during the climb to float.

In events like Thor's where I have the featured maxed, I saw at least 290-240-240 from about 200pts on, and start seeing the 325-350-ish 5* above 700-800, mixed among other 4* rosters.

I have a 2 cover, 285 Logan but nothing else above the 270s, I've often wondered if that's why I'm seeing them now, but I also can beat a 325 5*, so I hadn't worried much about it.

wymtime

Overall I don't think this is just a 5* player problem. I was in slice 2 of the Thor PVP and when I got above 850 points I skipped crookedknight 10 times. Everyother skip was him and at the time he was only worth 32-33 points. I have. Imagine he saw me around the same number of times for maybe 35 points. The top players in my group were over 1800 points, but matchmaking kept giving me the exact same players for low points.

Malcrof

This right here is why i plan on capping my 5*s at 350. 350 is the level of a weekly boosted max 4*, so MMR should give more targets than just other 5* teams. If i ever max a 5* cover wise, i would consider going all the way, but 350 is my pre-determined stopping point for now.

mind you , i am no-where close, 3 cover SS is my biggest, and have no leveled him yet.

Ruinate

lukewin wrote:

If my luck does change and I get usable 5*, I'd want to use them to beat up on the same teams I see now, not get bumped out of the sweet spot I'm in and have the game become less fun.

This, right here. It makes sense that the game gets harder as your roster gets better in pve (to a degree).

However, getting things taken away from you, such as viable targets, because your roster got better is just plain stupid. Why play? Why progress?

In any other tier-based game, transitioning is difficult. But once you reach the tier the game rewards you by becoming easier. You feel powerful and strong and you feel good until it's time transition again. Where is the feel good part in this game?

TxMoose

some may scoff at this thread as 1st world problems but I find this discussion very valuable. recently pulled a 6th cover on SS (1/3/2) and I always wonder if I should start putting iso into him - could take him to 345 at this point. currently still at 255 with my 2 cover logan. hb and jean are 250 and 240 and the rest are 166ish and down. with SS being the weakest of the 3, certainly don't want to screw my mmr/scaling up for a weaker character. my first thought was to just use him at 255 but he's pretty underwhelming to me.

Malcrof

TxMoose wrote:

some may scoff at this thread as 1st world problems but I find this discussion very valuable. recently pulled a 6th cover on SS (1/3/2) and I always wonder if I should start putting iso into him - could take him to 345 at this point. currently still at 255 with my 2 cover logan. hb and jean are 250 and 240 and the rest are 166ish and down. with SS being the weakest of the 3, certainly don't want to screw my mmr/scaling up for a weaker character. my first thought was to just use him at 255 but he's pretty underwhelming to me.

335 should be fine, would act like a boosted lvl 250 4*. Also, he is nowhere near weak, not in any sense of the word.

Sm0keyJ0e

Ruinate wrote:

In any other tier-based game, transitioning is difficult. But once you reach the tier the game rewards you by becoming easier. You feel powerful and strong and you feel good until it's time transition again. Where is the feel good part in this game?

This is what I'm going through right now and realizing I am not playing as much because it's not as fun as it was. Here's my story...

I am a 2* to 3* transitioner. Several maxed 2*'s and several 3*'s parked at 94. I have recently begun to bring some up to 120. Not long ago I acquired a yellow OML from an LT. Woohoo! Now I'm gonna be powerful, let's go play with my new toy! Or so I thought... the game has gone downhill for me since rostering him. Where I was seeing 2*/low-level 3*'s in PVP, similar to me, I now immediately see maxed out 3*'s after the seeds. I'm also an obvious target because yellow OML is not very threatening and get attacked frequently. PVE is almost worse as the hardest nodes are now level 200+. In the current Hulk event, Jugs one-hits anyone that isn't OML. It's become a game of positioning OML up front when I know an attack is coming and hoping I survive. It's just not fun.

If I had another cover of OML I think it would be a game changer, but currently he has no attack and is purely a tank. He is a middle-tier 3* at best and should not be scaling me up so quickly.

I don't feel progression or satisfaction or powerful at all... I feel severely ****.

Bowgentle

Ruinate wrote:

lukewin wrote:

If my luck does change and I get usable 5*, I'd want to use them to beat up on the same teams I see now, not get bumped out of the sweet spot I'm in and have the game become less fun.

This, right here. It makes sense that the game gets harder as your roster gets better in pve (to a degree).

However, getting things taken away from you, such as viable targets, because your roster got better is just plain stupid. Why play? Why progress?

In any other tier-based game, transitioning is difficult. But once you reach the tier the game rewards you by becoming easier. You feel powerful and strong and you feel good until it's time transition again. Where is the feel good part in this game?

You're not supposed to feel powerful or good in mpq.
The whole business model is built on you forever chasing the new shiny and never feeling secure.
Because once you feel powerful and good, you don't have a reason to buy cover packs anymore.

Which is the reason Thorverine 2.0 got hit by the nerf sledgehammer - nobody cared about new chars anymore.

MarvelMan

aesthetocyst wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Overall I don't think this is just a 5* player problem. I was in slice 2 of the Thor PVP and when I got above 850 points I skipped crookedknight 10 times. Everyother skip was him and at the time he was only worth 32-33 points. I have. Imagine he saw me around the same number of times for maybe 35 points. The top players in my group were over 1800 points, but matchmaking kept giving me the exact same players for low points.

Generally speaking, every 3* player over 800 is shielded, and almost everyone over 1K is shielded. And players running 2x 5*s are not visible to many.

Nothing new about this. It's simple distribution. The bulk of the players in the slice are un3D and visible to you, but once you have climbed, they aren't worth much.

The higher you go, the harder the climb. Not a problem; a challenge.

Except as a 3* to 4* transitioner, using my 3*s mostly, I get HAMMERED as soon as I cross 700 by 4* teams and some with 325-350 5*s plus I still got to skip some of the same players over and over and over, often for 28-33 pts. It IS a general problem, though maybe not the biggest with the game.