More Probability Whining (Legendary Token Pulls)

fmftint

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

Or, you could just let us upgrade ANY 4* character instead of leaving everything up to RNG luck

Unknown

Idk ICE the vault sounds interesting, has any testing been done? While it may not change the odds, it has some sort of mental help or joy to it idk it's weird.

scottee

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

It's ok Ice, the playerbase doesn't actually need better odds, they just need to *think* they have better odds. To counteract the confirmation bias, I suggest implementing automatic cat videos that pop up whenever someone makes a mundane pull, and then an even bigger flashing "congratulations" banner when they get a useful cover. (You can have the person who worked on that "victory" banner help. I'm sure they can make it big and flashy.) Also make the phone vibrate so hard it falls out of their hands, and have a drone personally deliver a real-life piece of cake. That way they'll only remember the good pulls, and not the bad ones, and you'll get threads that say, "Wow, I've got the best luck ever!"

Darknes21

I hope they stay away for the vault idea! The vault is rigged.
I did research on the patterns a while ago. I would watch the pattern (about 2mins and 25 seconds in the taco vault, shorter in the 80cover vaults) find the Symbol I would want and push the button 3 symbol prior. In theory it should work, however if I was targeting LT or 4* the symbol would change / be different. (I even video recorded the pattern and used a stopwatch)

My findings......Vault is ****! It just another way to give you false hope!

fmftint

Darknes21 wrote:

I hope they stay away for the vault idea! The vault is rigged.
I did research on the patterns a while ago. I would watch the pattern (about 2mins and 25 seconds in the taco vault, shorter in the 80cover vaults) find the Symbol I would want and push the button 3 symbol prior. In theory it should work, however if I was targeting LT or 4* the symbol would change / be different. (I even video recorded the pattern and used a stopwatch)

My findings......Vault is ****! It just another way to give you false hope!

They already said, the vault is not a skill game, the icons are just a visual representation of what is in the vault, outcome is determined instantly

Darknes21

So the vault is a total waste....Great!

killerkoala

no vault animation is a waste, we should just click and get a check off, not watch a roll nonsense if the prize is predetermined as soon as we click.

Pylgrim

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

Hi Ice, thanks a lot for answering and I'm elated that you are looking into this. I'm really not proposing a system that dynamically checks for the covers I have and never ever rewards those again. I understand why is both impractical and undesirable (from your point of view). However, luck-caused feel-bad moments need to be minimised at this level of play.

The idea I've been throwing about is a small vault with a quick refresh. Unlike other vaults its purpose would not hoarding but selection. Say, a 10-item vault that refreshes every week or 5 days. 1 random 5* cover (for that 10% chance) and nine random 4*s (or maybe not so random? made up from the 4*s featured that week?). So, if that week the vault has 6+ X-Forces, IWs and/or other covers that I have already maxed, I can choose not to cash my LTs until the next week, when a hopefully more favourable vault pool appears. That way, luck is not entirely removed (getting a vault of all 10 needed covers will be extremely unlikely for most transitioners) but an element of strategy and informed gambling will diminish the occurrence of feel-bad moments. Conversely, a really favourable vault pool may encourage people to go above and beyond ($) to get more LTs in that week.

Peej13

how the heck did you get 100 cp?

Kevin61

fmftint wrote:

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

Or, you could just let us upgrade ANY 4* character instead of leaving everything up to RNG luck

I would strongly agree with this. As I recall (I haven't scoured the threads to find the exact quote) when Command points were announced, it was said that we could "upgrade a 4* character" or something of that nature. I was expecting to have a choice of either a random Legendary Token draw or choosing a cover for a 4* character that was already on your roster. Not adding a color that you did not already have, but simply upping a color. Cashed in my first 25 CP's and pulled a Falcap yellow. Good pull for me as I did not have him at all.

speedoking

well, I made an account just to vent a little bit about the token pulling frustration. I've had about 26 or so tokens... all of which yielded zero 5 stars. I've also spent about 800 dollars on this game hoping to nab at least one 5star. No luck. I've completed every clash of the titans event. I've won the 1300 pvp token 3 times. I've gotten some from the season rewards for pvp. Even spent all my command points on 2 tokens. And no matter what I do. I can't either produce enough legendary tokens to really feel like I have a good shot at getting a few 5 star covers. I don't need much more covers for the pre-anniversary 4 stars. I don't have any way of really "earning" the 5 star covers. Like you have suggested in the video. I've seen a some people on youtube straight up open 500 legendary tokens and not get a fully covered OML. I want to know, how or what more can i do, outside of spending $25,000 dollars for a half covered OML or to get even 3 OML covers. You would think that 800 dollars should do the trick. Jokes on me i guess. Also, what is being done about blatant cheating? doesn't seem like much. I ran into a 4/4/3 surfer the other day. That's probably more than $30,000 dollars that guy spent to get a surfer that well covered. or he cheated. anyways... been playing the game since 2months after release. I feel like then intentions are good, but you come up short too often. thanks.

bobbyfish

Just to put a counter argument in, or more of a question, would it actually be good for the game to have any more choice in 4* covers than you have for 3*s now? Surely pulling the odd cover you don't need is part of the luck of the game? Yes, it can be frustrating in extreme cases like in the case of the OP, and some would argue that the extra effort needed for a legendary token means there should be more control, but isn't that then just allowing that top 1% who can regularly earn legendaries to pull away further from the rest of the player base unless any changes are blanket changes across the star ratings?

Earning LTs is harder because the characters you earn from them are (mostly) stronger. Surely the draw mechanisms for this still need to be the same as the 1*/2*/3* to keep the game balanced? Not saying changes across the board are not welcome, but the luck of the draw element should stay in some measure across the board.

Pylgrim

bobbyfish wrote:

Just to put a counter argument in, or more of a question, would it actually be good for the game to have any more choice in 4* covers than you have for 3*s now? Surely pulling the odd cover you don't need is part of the luck of the game? Yes, it can be frustrating in extreme cases like in the case of the OP, and some would argue that the extra effort needed for a legendary token means there should be more control, but isn't that then just allowing that top 1% who can regularly earn legendaries to pull away further from the rest of the player base unless any changes are blanket changes across the star ratings?

Earning LTs is harder because the characters you earn from them are (mostly) stronger. Surely the draw mechanisms for this still need to be the same as the 1*/2*/3* to keep the game balanced? Not saying changes across the board are not welcome, but the luck of the draw element should stay in some measure across the board.

Please define "pull away further". Do you understand how sluggish, uncontrollable and frustrating the (non-whale) 4* progression is, compared with the 3* progression? Besides it's not like we were randomly blessed and when we started the game we appeared already with a fully maxed 3* roster and now we are demanding even more benefits, while you slog through manually from 0. We crawled all the way here putting even more effort and time towards it than you have or will. If we are "ahead" is because we earned it and if we are begging for better conditions to keep progressing is because progression has but come to a halt. If we didn't demand for this, the day would come soon when you too, got here and then you'd experience yourself how bad it is not to be able to progress any further after having come all the way here. You'd also experience the joys of having the people who started the game months or years after you think you are entitled for wanting to "pull further ahead".

Raffoon

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

Where have you been? There have been lots of topics that were more on-point about this subject in the last month. I don't think that your response is going to be read by a lot of people, since this is the umpteenth thread about this, and some threads have been better crafted or had better discussion.

In any case, since it seems that you have not been reading/responding, please consider this solution to the issues of a legendary vault that has already been proposed more than a month ago and several times since.

Make the vault a 1-3 day vault with a relatively small size such as 20 items, and similar odds to current tokens. If people want to take advantage of the vault, they collect tokens and use them all at once to guarantee or at least increase the odds on a pull they want. If they get a bad vault, or pull all the appealing items, they're not stuck with that vault the rest of the season. For people that don't want to collect tokens this continues to function almost identically to the current system. For people that want to lessen the degree of the RNG, this does that.

Konman

Whatever randomness that exists in this game, is intended as a direct mitigation against the obvious pay 2 win features of this game. If not for the random token pulls, if you could pick the covers you wanted, then the game would be dead. RNGesus is looking out for us all.

Malcrof

IceIX wrote:

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

This is the part that excites me in the right spots..

Now, to hoard or not to hoard, that is the question..

bobbyfish

Pylgrim wrote:

bobbyfish wrote:

Just to put a counter argument in, or more of a question, would it actually be good for the game to have any more choice in 4* covers than you have for 3*s now? Surely pulling the odd cover you don't need is part of the luck of the game? Yes, it can be frustrating in extreme cases like in the case of the OP, and some would argue that the extra effort needed for a legendary token means there should be more control, but isn't that then just allowing that top 1% who can regularly earn legendaries to pull away further from the rest of the player base unless any changes are blanket changes across the star ratings?

Earning LTs is harder because the characters you earn from them are (mostly) stronger. Surely the draw mechanisms for this still need to be the same as the 1*/2*/3* to keep the game balanced? Not saying changes across the board are not welcome, but the luck of the draw element should stay in some measure across the board.

Please define "pull away further". Do you understand how sluggish, uncontrollable and frustrating the (non-whale) 4* progression is, compared with the 3* progression? Besides it's not like we were randomly blessed and when we started the game we appeared already with a fully maxed 3* roster and now we are demanding even more benefits, while you slog through manually from 0. We crawled all the way here putting even more effort and time towards it than you have or will. If we are "ahead" is because we earned it and if we are begging for better conditions to keep progressing is because progression has but come to a halt. If we didn't demand for this, the day would come soon when you too, got here and then you'd experience yourself how bad it is not to be able to progress any further after having come all the way here. You'd also experience the joys of having the people who started the game months or years after you think you are entitled for wanting to "pull further ahead".

fair enough if you say progression has stalled (I guess that's why 5* has been brought in, all discussions of that aside). I'm not suggesting there's not a valid need for something for the top rosters to aim for; both from the players' POV and a game sustainability POV that makes sense. I just think the element of randomness should still be part of the game at all levels, rather than guaranteed progression/cover selection for one level of player over another. If there is an option added for 4* transitioners to pick/reject covers, for example, then there should be a similar option for a 2* transitioner. I think the devs would need to be a bit careful about how much they improve pulls, even if 99% of this board think they should do so.

LordXberk

Raffoon wrote:

IceIX wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Forgive me if I keep plugging my thread but it already has 57 upvotes and several pages of comments, so I think it's important to keep it visible and growing. LTs NEED to change and we need to make sure the devs see this is a concern of a significant part of the playerbase.

We've seen it. Feel free to keep the discussion going if you like. What you appear to be asking for is something to make the game say "Oh, you don't need X-Force anymore? Let's give you less of those". Which would naturally alter the odds in the pack dynamically for you. This would need to be reflected across all packs on a per user basis. It would be a base fundamental change in how covers are provided to the player base, as well as make things orders of magnitude more difficult to balance cover outflow to make sure that (most) players aren't getting covers too quickly. It's not an impossible task, but being 100% honest it's not something that I would expect that we would ever take on for implementation. The alternative that we could do *today* in-game would be to make the Legendary Packs a Vault instead. There are real downsides to that though:

- The Vault would necessarily reset when we add a new 4*/5*. You would have at max 1 month (a season) to pull everything you needed before it may disappear/odds reset - This isn't great for covering characters. Either the Vault is small enough that you could reasonably expect a certain character (100 covers) and probably only 3-4 covers of each character, or it contains enough to cover all the 4*s and the Vault is huge, so odds changes never happen. Then refer back to point 1 on not being able to chew through that. - Even with a Vault, you're still going to have the same issue as current: Out of a 100 piece Vault, players pulling 5 times could very well pull 3 of the 4 available Invisible Woman covers that happen to be hanging out. Chances aren't high of that happening, but it's a near surety that someone will hit that combination with the number of people making pulls. Meaning, it may not even actually change the *feeling* that things are rigged and you're getting screwed even if it does 100% objectively lower the odds of that occurring.

In regards to the more general feeling: We've looked at our odds. We've looked at drops. We continue to look at odds and drop runs. We have yet to find anything anomalous. The numbers of covers of all types from all cover packs have been and still are dropping in the displayed ratios, give or take very much within statistical variations. I totally get that it sucks that you see 3-4 covers in a row, but that's random being random. As was stated above, you never notice when you pull 12 Standards and they're all varied. You *do* notice when you pull 5 Venoms in a row though. Looking at it from a 100 foot view, that's a little streak blip in the otherwise very homogenous statistical run. Just as often, Venom doesn't pop out of 300 pack pulls in a row. But for you personally, that was signs that something is rigged. It really really does come down to being human nature to notice that. I mean, I sure as heck know better and *I* still have a hard time fighting down that feeling when Moonstone pops up 4 times on my 10x Heroic in a season pull.

All this being said, we are working on something that should obviate these feelings some/most of the time. Not ready to announce what that is yet, but all of us (and I'm sure nearly 100% of the player base) totally agree that pulling yet another cover on a finished character is a substandard experience.

Where have you been? There have been lots of topics that were more on-point about this subject in the last month. I don't think that your response is going to be read by a lot of people, since this is the umpteenth thread about this, and some threads have been better crafted or had better discussion.

In any case, since it seems that you have not been reading/responding, please consider this solution to the issues of a legendary vault that has already been proposed more than a month ago and several times since.

Make the vault a 1-3 day vault with a relatively small size such as 20 items, and similar odds to current tokens. If people want to take advantage of the vault, they collect tokens and use them all at once to guarantee or at least increase the odds on a pull they want. If they get a bad vault, or pull all the appealing items, they're not stuck with that vault the rest of the season. For people that don't want to collect tokens this continues to function almost identically to the current system. For people that want to lessen the degree of the RNG, this does that.

100% this idea. Smaller vaults are the key, not these 80 or 300 item vaults where it's still a complete crapshoot. That's why DDQ vault sucks v. its potential - you have to hoard FOREVER to have a good chance of getting something worthwhile.

simonsez

scottee wrote:

It's ok Ice, the playerbase doesn't actually need better odds, they just need to *think* they have better odds.

No, if the only 4*s you need are iceman, cyke, and rhulk, the odds of getting something you need ARE pretty bad. It's not a psychological illusion.

pheregas

Thank you IceX for your reply. I find it extremely heartening that these issues are on the devs minds and that they are actively thinking of ways to increase the gameplay experience.

Does it feel bad to purchase tokens with my hard earned cash and then have duplicates? Of course. Does it feel bad to have that string of bad luck and be on the extreme bad end of the the bell curve? Absolutely. Does receiving stingy, trolling comments about being ungrateful hurt my feelings? Yes all day long.

I was really only trying to address, what seemed like, a gameplay/odds issue. Since that has been addressed, especially by IceX, I consider this subject closed and am excited to hear more about these hinted changes in the future.