X-Force. Forgiven and Forgotten?

Dauthi

I don't think the problem is with X-Force, but with board shakeup in general. If you take a look at all board shake-up, Xforce is one of the cheapest while offering decent damage. D3's price on shake-up is just high typically.

Malcrof

LegendReborn wrote:

Edit: L. O. L. Comparing xf w to buster in the most disenguous manner. Sure, let's ignore why buster is so good, like his self acceleration on two abilities and crazy strong synergy with iron fist.

Really just compared 1 ability, and tried to make XFW look better. Also, IF accelerating SS was fun before i had IMHB.

Without health packs, Hulkbuster takes 17 years, 9 hours, 41 minutes to heal to full when downed, XFW takes about an hour. (kidding)

There wasn't anything disingenuous about the comparison, XFW has 3 damage producing abilities, 1 of which can heal him if it does no damage. IMHB is a monster, and can accelerate his own abiliies.. but before i had him, if i had an SS ready to go.. i would wait for HB to use his blue.. can almost one shot him if it goes right.

I still like XFW, i don't use him outside PVE anymore, but i think a simple buff to his green, and some health, to put him in-line with other 4*s, would be a good idea.

eaise

Malcrof wrote:

i think a simple buff to his green, and some health, to put him in-line with other 4*s, would be a good idea.

That would be a step in the right direction. I think they should also had part of his Black back. Whether it be AP drain from enemy or AP gain from tiles destroyed. That along with the extra health and good green again would make him viable in PvP.

Which would help fix the "problem" in PvP. This problem is that the meta only revolves around 2 characters. Jean and Hulkbuster. Those are the 2 4* characters you will see every event for everyone with high points. On a very rare occasion if a good 4* is boosted you'll see them instead of Jean or HB, but that's rare.
What needs to happen is that several 4* characters become good in the meta. Make it to where more than just 2 characters are used (same as when Thoress and XFW owned the meta)
Having a balance like this would make PvP more fun and more competitive.

JamieMadrox

Malcrof wrote:

Flip side of the coin, 11ap Surgical strike, now that is shows strongest color.. can be better manipulated.

Repulsor Punch - max level with 11 red AP - 6930 damage

Surgical Strike max level (11ap) with 11 strongest color tiles on the board - 8591 damage

and along with SS you get cascades.. and the possibility of much more than 11 strongest color tiles on the board.

He also has no self/team damage like Hulkbuster.. or near as much Health.

He is a give and take character. Hs green needs a little more damage, but overall, since he can true heal himself. He is still a good char.

Overdrive in to SS. So much damage.

GrumpySmurf1002

eaise wrote:

What needs to happen is that several 4* characters become good in the meta. Make it to where more than just 2 characters are used (same as when Thoress and XFW owned the meta)
Having a balance like this would make PvP more fun and more competitive.

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

cyineedsn

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

Out of curiosity, were you skipping XFW/IF team when above 1k? That sounds like a relatively soft target when above 1k unless I'm missing something here

Malcrof

cyineedsn wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

Out of curiosity, were you skipping XFW/IF team when above 1k? That sounds like a relatively soft target when above 1k unless I'm missing something here

I skipped a few. even using Jeanbuster, buffed IF w/ attack tile lag/bug, made it a bad choice for hopping, just took too long, normally a soft target though.

Also, been seeing quite a bit of 4Cyc/Rulk... and my max Jeanbuster is about 50/50 on them.. that team when it gets going could be the new big nasty. I want Rulk!

eaise

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

eaise wrote:

What needs to happen is that several 4* characters become good in the meta. Make it to where more than just 2 characters are used (same as when Thoress and XFW owned the meta)
Having a balance like this would make PvP more fun and more competitive.

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

The bolded are boosted. Which as I mentioned does help see some variety. As for the other 4* you mentioned: XFW and XFDP I never see past 800 let alone after 1K. When I'm climbing I'll definitely see them though.
I personally don't ever see carnage unless he is boosted. But maybe others do.
Iceman has same colors as Jean and doesn't work well with HB at all. So seeing a team with iceman only happens if that person lacks HB and Jean.
So while boosted does help the situation it's still almost the same as the old monopolies

GrumpySmurf1002

cyineedsn wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

Out of curiosity, were you skipping XFW/IF team when above 1k? That sounds like a relatively soft target when above 1k unless I'm missing something here

In this case I skipped, because i was mid-climb and a 38-40 isn't appealing when I know there are 70s out, even if the 70 is considerably stronger.

Those XForce teams aren't winning a bracket, that's not really what I'm saying. More so that in the past, once you got to 1k, you saw nothing but the top team, with few exceptions. It's a considerably different experience now, and that's without factoring in the fairly strong group of boosted 3* this week (Fist, Gamora, Deadpool)

Malcrof

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

cyineedsn wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The top of PvP is more varied than it's ever been. In the last PvP alone I saw all of the following skipping through while above 1k: Carnage, Antman (350), Fury (350), XForce (i guess cause Fist boosted), HB, Jean, Cyclops (345), RHulk (345), XDP, Iceman.

Yeah, Jeanbuster owns the vast majority but that's going to happen no matter what, there will always be 2 that dominate. It's just not like XF/GT or Sentry/Hood days, where that was literally the only option.

Out of curiosity, were you skipping XFW/IF team when above 1k? That sounds like a relatively soft target when above 1k unless I'm missing something here

In this case I skipped, because i was mid-climb and a 38-40 isn't appealing when I know there are 70s out, even if the 70 is considerably stronger.

Those XForce teams aren't winning a bracket, that's not really what I'm saying. More so that in the past, once you got to 1k, you saw nothing but the top team, with few exceptions. It's a considerably different experience now, and that's without factoring in the fairly strong group of boosted 3* this week (Fist, Gamora, Deadpool)

Actually saw a Fist/Gamora/Spidey that was worth 75 pts to me after 1100.. i had shielded till end, but would have been worth breaking to hop if i was going for 1300

GrumpySmurf1002

eaise wrote:

So while boosted does help the situation it's still almost the same as the old monopolies

As I said, there's no amount of tinkering with 4* characters that's going to change that. There is always a fastest/strongest, and the top will always gravitate to it. Of the boosted this week, only Ant-man is sure to disappear again when unboosted. Fury, Rulk, Cyc will keep appearing.

You have a group (Elektra, Starlord, etc) that rarely sees the light of day, but otherwise the variety at the top is more than adequate.

eaise

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

eaise wrote:

So while boosted does help the situation it's still almost the same as the old monopolies

As I said, there's no amount of tinkering with 4* characters that's going to change that. There is always a fastest/strongest, and the top will always gravitate to it.
Unfortunately you are right. But I wish it wasn't just two. If there were say 4 or 6 characters that all were fast and powerful to create a balance. Make pvp more like rock-paper-scissors. Jean and HB are played no matter who is boosted. Some players may use other boosted 4*s but a good portion use the unboosted Jean and HB over the boosted.

Of the boosted this week, only Ant-man is sure to disappear again when unboosted. Fury, Rulk, Cyc will keep appearing.

Fury? No way. He's to slow and not nearly strong enough to be viable when not boosted.
Rulk and Cyc I will say we'll have to see. Both have usage but idk if it's enough to create any changes from the meta of jeanbuster

You have a group (Elektra, Starlord, etc) that rarely sees the light of day, but otherwise the variety at the top is more than adequate.
Poor StarLord

san

Vhailorx wrote:

XFW did dominate the meta from september 2014 to april 2015. But he actually wouldn't be that bad today, especially the green. 4k damage plus cascade for 8ap is powerful, but is it really better than iceman's 4-turn stun/8k damage for 6ap? Also, the combination of nerfing his powers AND leaving him out of the health shift really hurt xfw in the current 4* meta. He should have gotten more health.

Surgical's strike's ap tricks would be more problematic (it's not coincidence that very few 4*s have ap manipulation powers, and most them are just enemy ap destruction). But IMO it was always a mistake to remove both the ap generation AND the ap drain from surgical strike. I would have left the ap destruction. It was the ap collection that allowed for truly awesome chain combos (old xfw was so much fun against teams with green as the strongest color. surgical strike --> xforce --> xforce --> win!

Correct.

XFW did in fact dominate the meta at the time, but gamebreaking is plain wrong. He was not gamebreaking. When I obtained XFW I did win much more than before, but it was never guaranteed. You still had to play the game, and it only took me from 600+pts in those days (current equivalent 750-800) to barely touching the 800 point mark on some days (yay, needed 3* covers lol - now I just sell).

To answer the OP question, I was one who whaled him (well, the last 5 covers), and this was the only whale like purchase I made all game ($50). I would have considered spending more money (and did consider on a few occasions), but his nerf left a sour taste that hasn't gone away. I still play the game and enjoy it quite a bit, but I am not spending another dime on the game at this point, whereas I'd shell out $5-$20 every now and then before. I know it's not a huge revenue source, but enough folks like me do make an impact.

Jarvind

whoami24601 wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

Based on what I have heard about the original Xforce Wolverine, he was utterly gamebreaking...

Heh, the ballad of XFW is not so simple as that. The "original" X-Force, the game's first 4*, was a poor excuse for a wet noodle, and easily whipped by his earlier self, 2* Wolvie. Refer to the character thread for the history of the character:

**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

X-Force 2.0 was a huge improvement, and he became what he should have been all along up to that point, he game's ultimate prize. "Utterly gamebreaking" is pretty strong; he was good, and a lot of fun, but too far ahead of the meta at that time. His green did 2x the current damage; black did less damage but drained AP from the enemy and generated AP from the board for his team; and his yellow was less strong.

I bought my last two covers for Wolverine X-Force a few months before he was nerfed. I agree, I wouldn't call him quite "game breaking," but he was far and away the best character in the game at the time. Goddess Thor, when she was initially released, was even better. I only recently fully covered her, so I can't personally speak to how overwhelming she was, but I will say I always skipped GT teams until her nerf.

His green was a great "lots of damage and maybe cascades" for it's cost - you could one-shot 2*s and many 3*s with it. His black was pretty much game-ending - you hit the other team, downed or nearly downed one character, then got enough mana (usually) to do something else nasty. X-Force and CMags were my go-to team for pretty much everything. Honestly, if they restored his former stats he'd still be the best character in the game, only the 5*s would be able to crush him and that would be through sheer levels. Sure, his green would no longer one-shot any 3*s (since everyone got a HP buff,) but it would still rule, and his black leads to such ugly combos it's not even funny.

I do believe they over-nerfed his green - his black is about right and the buff to his yellow was cool, but the green is now "board shake with a little damage." Honestly, rather than boosting the damage, I'd probably lower its cost. The devs are reluctant to buff characters, though, since it causes such backlash if they have to nerf them again, so generally only really broken characters get a boost.

I'd agree with this. The give and take on Surgical Strike and Recovery made them ok, but X-Force is still essentially just Juggernaut's Unstoppable Crash. It's mediocre damage, mediocre tile removal, and good board shake, and that's about it. It should be 6AP, or it should get re-boosted. Maybe not quite to where it was, but closer to the old X-Force would be reasonable.

I still play him a lot, and I kept mine at 5/5/3 after the changes.

In my defense, I started playing after he was in his current state, so I only knew what I had heard on LINE and so forth, which I'm sure was blown slightly out of proportion. The general feeling, though, seemed to always be OMG HE USED TO BE SO GUD U COULD MAEK N00BZ GET REKT LOL. I know I had heard at one point that his black generated AP as well, because apparently the truth was far too boring.

puppychow

Unlike most players, I was not at all upset when xf got nerfed back in march. We all knew it was coming. however, despite the decrease in dmg output for gr, and the loss of color drain in black, the guy still got a boost in healing (yellow) and damage output (black). And now that D3 has taken the guessing game out of which color is strongest, you could easily use surgical strike to your advantage.

In fact, I'm having a GREAT time using my 181 xf in the cmag pvp.

TheOncomingStorm

The problem is overnerfing. Mpq doesn't like to nerf the same character twice, so they overnerf. The problem is characters like xforce, sentry, and spidey are neglected perpetually afterwards.

I understand mpq has stated they buffing characters is not a priority. However, i take exception to this principle in the above cases. The problem is that unlike im40 who needs to be fixed due to the the natural progression of the game, overnerfed characters are of less use directly due to a balancing error by mpq. Therefore, mpq should feel a duty to correct the latter in a more timely fashion.

Players have to spend an inordinate amount of time getting character roster slots, covers, and iso. Hence, mpq should do everything possible so players do not feel their time and effort were wasted.

SunCrusher

ALWAYS forgiven, because that's why I still play this game and also pay into it when I can to open up my roster slots, but I NEVER forget the experiences that I have had with nerfs because I'm constantly reminded of my personal consequences with these nerfs with one of the consequences being the prolonging of my 1-2* transition and then, the further prolonging of my 2* progression.

2* Wolverine and 2* Thor got nerfed. I was in the middle of trying to get past stupid **** Juggernaut in the story mode because I NEEDED the rest of the Thor, Storm, and Wolverine covers that he and other NPCs were sitting on top of. At that time, PvP was impossible for someone in my position and PvE had THE most horrible community scaling problem, ever, which meant I couldn't participate in PvEs to collect covers, either. Story Mode was about the only reliable way to earn covers when you were in 1-2* land... but with Thor being nerfed and with him being a 'Join Forces' character, he was pretty useless all things considered while Juggernaut was Unstoppable unless you got lucky with MBW and her stealing and stun.

Ironically, when I finally covered Thor, it wasn't through the Story Mode. It took me SO LONG to complete Juggernaut's story mode because of the forced 'Join Forces' nodes (and collect the resulting covers) that I eventually was able to collect my Thor elsewhere.

Wasn't fun. It was honestly a demoralizing and un-fun experience.

2* Black Widow got nerfed. True healing came to an end as did Hot Dog stands and those who complained it made no difference were mostly the people who were beyond using 2* characters and/or already had True Healing characters that they were able to use consistently. I was on the other side of the fence as I had JUST started my 2* transition and had a very limited roster and nobody else who could heal. Again, I was set back in terms of progression because this severely affected my ability to participate in PvEs to earn more covers. Oh by the way? I was still reeling from the other 2* nerfs. So this was just icing on the cake.

Wasn't fun. I was beginning to see a pattern.

Various 3* characters got nerfed including Classic Magneto and Daken. Who was I building? Classic Magneto and Daken. Classic Magneto was more of a personal grumble so I won't say anything more about that, but Daken, to me, sort of set the precedent for the future nerfs that came and became one of the biggest reasons I refused to ever buy covers for characters.

New character gets released... top tier people get to play with them for a while... devs realize too late that the character was too strong and upset the balance and the character gets neutered or spayed... Wash, rinse, repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat. The people who are just behind the people who got to play with the characters pre-nerf then get to reap the nerfs that resulted. If you happened to pay and buy the covers only to get receive a nerf very shortly after, well, sucks to be you.

I guess my overall feeling is this: Though I understand that nerfs happen to rebalance the game and such and though I probably appreciate it at some point down the line and though sometimes it doesn't affect me too much, it still leaves behind a sense of, "Well, who's next?" and it raises the sense of risk that comes with covering a character.

I don't expect perfect things or perfect results, but after all the nerfs that have happened, my impression is that QA in terms of game balance re: new characters is almost non-existent and that the thought process leading to nerfs is all reactionary as opposed to preventative in the sense that WE - and not some team within game development - are all guinea pigs and the actual QA team.

I've played other similar collect-and-build games before where brand new characters are released and they are released INITIALLY BUFFED and sometimes even a bit broken-buffed and everyone who ends up getting that character gets the character with the full understanding that the buff usually is only temporary or locked to that specific event/time period and that once that initial period ends, the characters will be brought back down to more 'reasonable' levels.

In the case of MPQ, we SPECULATE that MAYBE XYZ and 123 characters MIGHT be too uber for whichever meta, BUT we do NOT get actual CONFIRMATION of this from the dev team until after the characters have already been released and people have already been building them suddenly, R-insert-number-here version is on its way and OH LOOK HERE, WE HAVE A NERF!

Maybe it's just me, but being that I'm usually a step behind that 1% who gets to play with all the new shiny characters first, I find it hard to stay excited or even get excited about new characters in the first place because I just KNOW that by the time I get to roster that character, what made the character interesting or exciting upon initial release is now a moot point because, "Whooops! S/he upset the meta too much! NERF BAT TIME!"

I'm not saying that I like being able to use a broken character; I'm saying that I don't really like MPQ's method of addressing character balancing issues where it seems like everything is being done reactively with us, the playerbase, as the guinea pigs as if no character testing had ever been done before and that in a way, it isn't fair - especially to the people who build a character expecting to get ABC and 123 from them because that's what the original character build was supposed to be... only to have the devs go, "Nope! Play testing is over! Here, have a different toy now!"

Polares

I think the problem is not the nerfs per-se, XFW was too powerful at the time (now I don't think so), so he had to be nerfed. The problem is that they were over-nerfed (him and 4hor), and that after them we got characters like IMHB, JG, iceman, RH, Cyclops, etc. that are inline with the old versions of those two.

The most important is the over-nerf, though. Almost all nerfed chars, except probably Magneto and 2 thor, were overnerfed, not just dethroned, but humiliated. 4hor is still usable but her blue should create 7 or 8 charged tiles, and the yellow? Why the hell did they nerf 4hor yellow ?!?!?!? It is the same as XForce green, the problem was SS not XForce. But they nerfed these two powers that they didnt need any nerf reducing a lot the utility of these two chars. Then on top of that XForce did not receive the life buff, so basically he was nerfed twice.

GiantKiller2p

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

The problem is overnerfing.

This.

Agreed 100%.

I'd much rather see a regular series of small balance tweaks (including both buffs and nerfs) with each and every patch than these massive, reactionary, over-nerfs.

-GK

cyineedsn

GiantKiller2p wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

The problem is overnerfing.

This.

Agreed 100%.

I'd much rather see a regular series of small balance tweaks (including both buffs and nerfs) with each and every patch than these massive, reactionary, over-nerfs.

-GK

I would like that too. But nothing in the history of this game suggests that they have any interested in balance tweaks to other characters. It's been almost....6 months since the last real change, the change to moonstone that nobody asked for. Meanwhile hows Spiderman and IM40 doing? Remember when they announced that classic magneto was going to get re-balanced, and then it took...6 months to actually do it? Or was it 12? I just remember it being a ridiculously long period to change ONE character.

In any case, I've given up and have come to terms that the only changes that may come up will be reactionary overnerfs periodically. Maybe at the start of next year they will do a balance pass like they did this year? But honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they ignored it and just keep on releasing the fancy new hotness.