X-Force. Forgiven and Forgotten?

ghostride23

Been playing for about 325 days. The way it seemed when I started playing was X-Force was endgame or seemed to me from what I read. Then as we all know, X-Force was nerfed. Players spend money to fully cover their X-Force. But Devs made it clear that for the sake of "balance", characters can be changed at any time like Spiderman or other mechanics. Few months later we have the 5 tier and new currency system so clearly it was to make way for the new 5 tier. My question to the forum, is knowing the history of what the Devs did not only with X-Force but others, has this stopped you from spending money for the new 5 tier and currency system in place to progress or it doesn't matter knowing full well what your getting into? I understand the game has to make money, it's a business. But seeing this business model is interesting to me in a sense that knowing regardless of what they do, people will still play because it's still Marvel and Marvel characters.

Punisher5784

To be fair, no characters have been nerfed since X-Force and the Health increases. Now characters are created to counter a character such as Jean Grey against Professor X and we also have the weekly buffed characters.

While many players are still angry about the X-Force and 4hor nerfs, on the other hand the devs have done a great job releasing new strong characters and trying to find ways to keep us entertained such as the new Command Points. The devs are slowly learning from prior mistakes and I applaud them for many changes they have made recently. So let's move forward and enjoy the game

Jarvind

Based on what I have heard about the original Xforce Wolverine, he was utterly gamebreaking, so he probably deserved to be nerfed. Honestly, aside from having kinda low health, he's still pretty good; I don't think he deserves nearly the amount of flak he gets for being a "weak" 4*. He's no Jean Grey or Hulkpuncher, but he's not Quicksilver either.

From what I've seen D3 is pretty good about responding to feedback and making sound balance tweaks, at least compared to other games I have played. I drop a Stark now and then, and I haven't seen anything yet to make me reconsider. Nobody likes when their characters get nerfed obviously, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt instead of just jumping straight to "OMFG EVIL DEVS CASH GRAB ROFLROFL."

Malcrof

X-23 gets 4561 damage for 8 green AP, if 2nd part is active, gets strikes with it.

XFW gets 1360 damage for 8 green AP, and destroys some tiles.


nope, still an issue, sorry.

GrumpySmurf1002

There has yet to be a change in MPQ that has changed my philosophy on spend.

If I feel I need (not just want) it, I'll do it. I felt I needed PX and HB usable to continue progressing, so I spent to get there. I don't feel I need Jean, so I haven't spent (though obviously I want).

There's nothing in game right now that I feel I need (aside from roster slots), so I'm not spending.

Doc L

Malcrof wrote:

X-23 gets 4561 damage for 8 green AP, if 2nd part is active, gets strikes with it.

XFW gets 1360 damage for 8 green AP, and destroys some tiles.


nope, still an issue, sorry.

This is exactly it. Whilst at the time he probably needed a nerf for balance, now he needs to be put back to around those levels, given the inclusion of both 5* and excellent new 4* such as Jean Gray, Hulkbuster, Iceman and so on. In all honesty, I feel a number of the 'old' 4* could do with a refresh, to bring them closer to the levels of the other 4* - Nick Fury seems an obvious one straight off the bat.

GrimSkald

aesthetocyst wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

Based on what I have heard about the original Xforce Wolverine, he was utterly gamebreaking...

Heh, the ballad of XFW is not so simple as that. The "original" X-Force, the game's first 4*, was a poor excuse for a wet noodle, and easily whipped by his earlier self, 2* Wolvie. Refer to the character thread for the history of the character:

**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

X-Force 2.0 was a huge improvement, and he became what he should have been all along up to that point, he game's ultimate prize. "Utterly gamebreaking" is pretty strong; he was good, and a lot of fun, but too far ahead of the meta at that time. His green did 2x the current damage; black did less damage but drained AP from the enemy and generated AP from the board for his team; and his yellow was less strong.

I bought my last two covers for Wolverine X-Force a few months before he was nerfed. I agree, I wouldn't call him quite "game breaking," but he was far and away the best character in the game at the time. Goddess Thor, when she was initially released, was even better. I only recently fully covered her, so I can't personally speak to how overwhelming she was, but I will say I always skipped GT teams until her nerf.

His green was a great "lots of damage and maybe cascades" for it's cost - you could one-shot 2*s and many 3*s with it. His black was pretty much game-ending - you hit the other team, downed or nearly downed one character, then got enough mana (usually) to do something else nasty. X-Force and CMags were my go-to team for pretty much everything. Honestly, if they restored his former stats he'd still be the best character in the game, only the 5*s would be able to crush him and that would be through sheer levels. Sure, his green would no longer one-shot any 3*s (since everyone got a HP buff,) but it would still rule, and his black leads to such ugly combos it's not even funny.

I do believe they over-nerfed his green - his black is about right and the buff to his yellow was cool, but the green is now "board shake with a little damage." Honestly, rather than boosting the damage, I'd probably lower its cost. The devs are reluctant to buff characters, though, since it causes such backlash if they have to nerf them again, so generally only really broken characters get a boost.

Malcrof

Doc L wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

X-23 gets 4561 damage for 8 green AP, if 2nd part is active, gets strikes with it.

XFW gets 1360 damage for 8 green AP, and destroys some tiles.


nope, still an issue, sorry.

This is exactly it. Whilst at the time he probably needed a nerf for balance, now he needs to be put back to around those levels, given the inclusion of both 5* and excellent new 4* such as Jean Gray, Hulkbuster, Iceman and so on. In all honesty, I feel a number of the 'old' 4* could do with a refresh, to bring them closer to the levels of the other 4* - Nick Fury seems an obvious one straight off the bat.

1360 damage + a bonus something for 8 ap is called Psylocke, not a 4* anything.

I mean Psylocke for as little as 5 ap gets 1131 damage, creates a 226 strength red strike tile.

woopie

XFW was above the power curve when he was buffed. The nerf bumped him back to the pack (towards the 3*s) and every non support 4* has been better than him. Of course, they aren't going to restore his green though, there's no money to be made by refixing older characters, look at IM40

The devs seriously overvalue tile destruction and charged tiles

Omega Red

Always forgive, never forget. Haven't bought a single cover since that nerf. I feel compelled to buy some again but I'm very reluctant at this point because big changes are made roughly about every six months and nothing has been touched since the big X-Force castration. I can see big changes coming sooner rather than later and I wouldn't like to be in the wrong end of that deal.

I'm still pissed over the Ragnarok nerf.

firethorne

Nope, not forgotten. It serves as a clear reminder never to be forgotten: Never buy anything but roster slots. What you pay for can be taken away from you at any second.

sc0ville

Malcrof wrote:

Doc L wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

X-23 gets 4561 damage for 8 green AP, if 2nd part is active, gets strikes with it.

XFW gets 1360 damage for 8 green AP, and destroys some tiles.


nope, still an issue, sorry.

This is exactly it. Whilst at the time he probably needed a nerf for balance, now he needs to be put back to around those levels, given the inclusion of both 5* and excellent new 4* such as Jean Gray, Hulkbuster, Iceman and so on. In all honesty, I feel a number of the 'old' 4* could do with a refresh, to bring them closer to the levels of the other 4* - Nick Fury seems an obvious one straight off the bat.

1360 damage + a bonus something for 8 ap is called Psylocke, not a 4* anything.

I mean Psylocke for as little as 5 ap gets 1131 damage, creates a 226 strength red strike tile.

This isn't true, if psylocke's red has been reduced to a cost of 5 ap, then she won't be generating a strike tile.

Pendants gotta pendant.

GiantKiller2p

I think this discussion is really hitting on another issue which is the "bludgeon to death with a massive blunt object" nature of this game's balance changes in general. XForce was terrible until he became amazing, then went right back to terrible (particularly in comparison to other 4* characters). What he needed was a substantial improvement from his original form. What he got was a massive boost which made him easily the best character in the game at the time. Then what he needed was a small downward tuning, and what he got was a massive nerf sending him straight to the back of the 4* pack.

What I fear isn't the fact that balance changes to 5*s might happen, it's that balance changes to 5*s are sure to be massive knee-jerk overreactions.

Please, D3/demiurge, for the love of Stan Lee, implement your balance changes in small increments. Please.

-GK

Vhailorx

XFW did dominate the meta from september 2014 to april 2015. But he actually wouldn't be that bad today, especially the green. 4k damage plus cascade for 8ap is powerful, but is it really better than iceman's 4-turn stun/8k damage for 6ap? Also, the combination of nerfing his powers AND leaving him out of the health shift really hurt xfw in the current 4* meta. He should have gotten more health.

Surgical's strike's ap tricks would be more problematic (it's not coincidence that very few 4*s have ap manipulation powers, and most them are just enemy ap destruction). But IMO it was always a mistake to remove both the ap generation AND the ap drain from surgical strike. I would have left the ap destruction. It was the ap collection that allowed for truly awesome chain combos (old xfw was so much fun against teams with green as the strongest color. surgical strike --> xforce --> xforce --> win!

moogles85

XF was initially a very **** RYG character worse than 2* wolvie - more of a trophy.

He became the buff over-powered character mainly because of the AP steal with black and cheap green to 1-shot Hood - everyone used him and if you didn't use him, you didn't have a chance at placing well.
And currently he's been over-nerfed collecting dust on most advanced players rosters. Some people argue he's still good, but I figure even when he's boosted and I STILL don't use him means he needs a buff (that being said, there are MANY 3* and 4* characters which are not-playable when boosted too). Even when facing teams with XF, he isn't even a priority anymore - just deny black and take him out later.

At the time when he was over-powered, he was only one of four 4* characters (nick fury, bag lady who is still bag lady, and GT) fighting mainly 3* characters.
When they nerfed him, he was still a 4* character because slightly better than 3* but that's it - but that was fine because of the competition.

Now that XF is one of twenty 4* characters, he's pretty terrible in comparison. If they revert his green, it would make him a decent 4* still.

Vhailorx

Doc L wrote:

This is exactly it. Whilst at the time he probably needed a nerf for balance, now he needs to be put back to around those levels, given the inclusion of both 5* and excellent new 4* such as Jean Gray, Hulkbuster, Iceman and so on. In all honesty, I feel a number of the 'old' 4* could do with a refresh, to bring them closer to the levels of the other 4* - Nick Fury seems an obvious one straight off the bat.

All fury needs is a slight drop to the cost of his powers. with 3 x 4-match powers he is just too slow, especially since 2 of his powers need some time to proc anyway.

Unknown

I never really bothered myself with much of the XFW nerf discussion, because I didn't (still don't) have a useful version, so it didn't affect me.

Reading some of the conversation in this thread (mostly Malcrof's info), I'm actually really grateful I didn't spend money on him, or even have a useful version at the time, because the numbers are pretty shocking with regard to his nerf and comparison to other heroes (X-23/Psylocke).

I cannot imagine how I would have felt if I had invested in what he became. Words like "shocked" and "angry" spring to mind.

DBC

GrimSkald

Drummerboycroy wrote:

I never really bothered myself with much of the XFW nerf discussion, because I didn't (still don't) have a useful version, so it didn't affect me.

Reading some of the conversation in this thread (mostly Malcrof's info), I'm actually really grateful I didn't spend money on him, or even have a useful version at the time, because the numbers are pretty shocking with regard to his nerf and comparison to other heroes (X-23/Psylocke).

I cannot imagine how I would have felt if I had invested in what he became. Words like "shocked" and "angry" spring to mind.

DBC

Here's the thing - I did spend HP on him (and indirectly money, since I've occassionally thrown $20 at the game,) and I got a tangible result from it - I was definitely able to place much higher than I had previously. I saved myself weeks, at least, by spending that HP and I definitely gained a lot from it. The fact that he was later nerfed doesn't detract from the fact that I did get to use him for a while at the higher level and stay ahead of the curve.

I was not angry when he was nerfed (though again, I agree that he was over-nerfed,) nor am I angry now. Sure, if I had spent that HP closer to the nerf I probably would have been angry, but then anyone who spent HP on XF after GT was nerfed was probably kidding themselves.

whoami24601

GrimSkald wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

Based on what I have heard about the original Xforce Wolverine, he was utterly gamebreaking...

Heh, the ballad of XFW is not so simple as that. The "original" X-Force, the game's first 4*, was a poor excuse for a wet noodle, and easily whipped by his earlier self, 2* Wolvie. Refer to the character thread for the history of the character:

**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

X-Force 2.0 was a huge improvement, and he became what he should have been all along up to that point, he game's ultimate prize. "Utterly gamebreaking" is pretty strong; he was good, and a lot of fun, but too far ahead of the meta at that time. His green did 2x the current damage; black did less damage but drained AP from the enemy and generated AP from the board for his team; and his yellow was less strong.

I bought my last two covers for Wolverine X-Force a few months before he was nerfed. I agree, I wouldn't call him quite "game breaking," but he was far and away the best character in the game at the time. Goddess Thor, when she was initially released, was even better. I only recently fully covered her, so I can't personally speak to how overwhelming she was, but I will say I always skipped GT teams until her nerf.

His green was a great "lots of damage and maybe cascades" for it's cost - you could one-shot 2*s and many 3*s with it. His black was pretty much game-ending - you hit the other team, downed or nearly downed one character, then got enough mana (usually) to do something else nasty. X-Force and CMags were my go-to team for pretty much everything. Honestly, if they restored his former stats he'd still be the best character in the game, only the 5*s would be able to crush him and that would be through sheer levels. Sure, his green would no longer one-shot any 3*s (since everyone got a HP buff,) but it would still rule, and his black leads to such ugly combos it's not even funny.

I do believe they over-nerfed his green - his black is about right and the buff to his yellow was cool, but the green is now "board shake with a little damage." Honestly, rather than boosting the damage, I'd probably lower its cost. The devs are reluctant to buff characters, though, since it causes such backlash if they have to nerf them again, so generally only really broken characters get a boost.

I'd agree with this. The give and take on Surgical Strike and Recovery made them ok, but X-Force is still essentially just Juggernaut's Unstoppable Crash. It's mediocre damage, mediocre tile removal, and good board shake, and that's about it. It should be 6AP, or it should get re-boosted. Maybe not quite to where it was, but closer to the old X-Force would be reasonable.

I still play him a lot, and I kept mine at 5/5/3 after the changes.

Malcrof

Flip side of the coin, 11ap Surgical strike, now that is shows strongest color.. can be better manipulated.

Repulsor Punch - max level with 11 red AP - 6930 damage

Surgical Strike max level (11ap) with 11 strongest color tiles on the board - 8591 damage

and along with SS you get cascades.. and the possibility of much more than 11 strongest color tiles on the board.

He also has no self/team damage like Hulkbuster.. or near as much Health.

He is a give and take character. Hs green needs a little more damage, but overall, since he can true heal himself. He is still a good char.

LegendReborn

Eh. Don't feel sorry for legacy players who had plenty of time to utilize their competitive advantage of things like rags, patchneto, xf w, 4thor, etc. By and large people had their advantage and benefitted from it in spades.

Now, I do think xf w could use a bit of a buff like make green a bit more potent and just make his yellow target like colossus so you can decide if you want to utilize the damage or the healing.

Edit: L. O. L. Comparing xf w to buster in the most disenguous manner. Sure, let's ignore why buster is so good, like his self acceleration on two abilities and crazy strong synergy with iron fist.