***** Silver Surfer (Skyrider) *****

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  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,216 Chairperson of the Boards
    SirLanik wrote:
    I've seen multiple people mention casually that Silver Surfer did not affect scaling, and after I got him in my first Legendary token, I added him to my roster gleefully. (I love having the characters)

    The problem? My average level for three star characters is maybe 110 or so, with only one three star fully covered.

    And suddenly all my PVP matches are all 240s or 270s.

    So while many people have said he shouldn't affect your match ratings, the fact that even after 20 consecutive skips I couldn't find an opponent that had characters within even 100 levels of mine, well, I'm beginning to think he DOES affect PVP.

    My current PVE has not noticeably changed, though I started it before I recruited Silver Surfer.

    TL;DR My PVP is now unplayable by a massive margin, likely Silver Surfers fault.

    This sucks, but I don't think it is particularly surprising. It's been clear for a very long time that a max (or very near max) roster is the only way to excel in the PVP arena. And since MMR was scrapped in March, PVP matchmaking is almost entirely based on rosters. So breaking your own level ceiling by more 140 levels is something that I would expect to change your matchmaking.

    Still, this problem highlights one (probably unintended) consequence of changing the way character levels work with 5*s. Demiurge wanted make a character that was more useful with few covers (since he wasn't supposed to be whale-able). But that means that lower level rosters (either soft-capped PVE rosters, or newbie rosters that grind well in PVE can earn a 5* cover that will (1) expire in 14 days, or (2) completely change the way they have to play the game, arguably for the worse.
  • evil pandaevil panda Posts: 419 Mover and Shaker
    So tonight's alleged "lunar eclipse" has finally let me figure things out.

    Silver surfer has arrived.

    Now bodies in our solar system are suddenly disappearing.

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, D3???!!
  • SteirerbuaSteirerbua Posts: 26 Just Dropped In
    Vhailorx wrote:
    SirLanik wrote:
    I've seen multiple people mention casually that Silver Surfer did not affect scaling, and after I got him in my first Legendary token, I added him to my roster gleefully. (I love having the characters)

    The problem? My average level for three star characters is maybe 110 or so, with only one three star fully covered.

    And suddenly all my PVP matches are all 240s or 270s.

    So while many people have said he shouldn't affect your match ratings, the fact that even after 20 consecutive skips I couldn't find an opponent that had characters within even 100 levels of mine, well, I'm beginning to think he DOES affect PVP.

    My current PVE has not noticeably changed, though I started it before I recruited Silver Surfer.

    TL;DR My PVP is now unplayable by a massive margin, likely Silver Surfers fault.

    This sucks, but I don't think it is particularly surprising. It's been clear for a very long time that a max (or very near max) roster is the only way to excel in the PVP arena. And since MMR was scrapped in March, PVP matchmaking is almost entirely based on rosters. So breaking your own level ceiling by more 140 levels is something that I would expect to change your matchmaking.

    Still, this problem highlights one (probably unintended) consequence of changing the way character levels work with 5*s. Demiurge wanted make a character that was more useful with few covers (since he wasn't supposed to be whale-able). But that means that lower level rosters (either soft-capped PVE rosters, or newbie rosters that grind well in PVE can earn a 5* cover that will (1) expire in 14 days, or (2) completely change the way they have to play the game, arguably for the worse.



    I observed the same effect with my account ...

    I could not believe my eyes when my first Legendary Token turned out to be a Silver Surfer! What a great addition to my roster would that be, it was an amazing feeling of joy!

    However, this feeling turned out to be treacherous.

    I am a passionate PvP player, although I am just at the beginning of the 2* -> 3* - transition. Therefore I have quite some 2*-characters at level 94 and some 3*-characters at the threshold of around Level 100. Anyway, I was getting along quite to my satisfaction in PvP, it was challenging, sometimes a bit too hard, but given my state of being still some sort of a beginner, I could not complain.
    That was until the Silver Surfer arrived at my roster. Since then, PvP is unplayable with teams of an average level of at least 166 turning up. I can tell you, it is not something you wish to see, having your Silver Surfer blown away by a Level 220 Cyclops. Needless to say that the rest of my team is far from being a match to these opponents.

    So, the only solution that comes to my mind is selling that Silver Surfer that turned out to me more a burden than a benefit. It's a hard decision, but unless you can provide a more convenient solution, it's the only thing I can do ...

    What do you guys think about that? I'd be glad to hear your opinion ...
  • udonomefoo wrote:
    If I put 3 black holes next to each other will they make a match? Will my phone melt?

    Don't want to think about this. ^^ Could be like Whales Whales Whales HARDER!

    OMG icon_eek.gif
  • udonomefoo wrote:
    If I put 3 black holes next to each other will they make a match? Will my phone melt?

    Don't want to think about this. ^^ Could be like Whales Whales Whales HARDER!

    OMG icon_eek.gif
    They are unmatchable, but one turn after one or two of those could be destroyed by the one next to it.
  • BlackSheep101BlackSheep101 Posts: 2,023 Chairperson of the Boards
    ShionSinX wrote:
    They are unmatchable, but one turn after one or two of those could be destroyed by the one next to it.
    Would they yield black hole AP?
  • generalTsobotgeneralTsobot Posts: 65 Match Maker
    Steirerbua wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:
    SirLanik wrote:
    I've seen multiple people mention casually that Silver Surfer did not affect scaling, and after I got him in my first Legendary token, I added him to my roster gleefully. (I love having the characters)

    The problem? My average level for three star characters is maybe 110 or so, with only one three star fully covered.

    And suddenly all my PVP matches are all 240s or 270s.

    So while many people have said he shouldn't affect your match ratings, the fact that even after 20 consecutive skips I couldn't find an opponent that had characters within even 100 levels of mine, well, I'm beginning to think he DOES affect PVP.

    My current PVE has not noticeably changed, though I started it before I recruited Silver Surfer.

    TL;DR My PVP is now unplayable by a massive margin, likely Silver Surfers fault.

    This sucks, but I don't think it is particularly surprising. It's been clear for a very long time that a max (or very near max) roster is the only way to excel in the PVP arena. And since MMR was scrapped in March, PVP matchmaking is almost entirely based on rosters. So breaking your own level ceiling by more 140 levels is something that I would expect to change your matchmaking.

    Still, this problem highlights one (probably unintended) consequence of changing the way character levels work with 5*s. Demiurge wanted make a character that was more useful with few covers (since he wasn't supposed to be whale-able). But that means that lower level rosters (either soft-capped PVE rosters, or newbie rosters that grind well in PVE can earn a 5* cover that will (1) expire in 14 days, or (2) completely change the way they have to play the game, arguably for the worse.



    I observed the same effect with my account ...

    I could not believe my eyes when my first Legendary Token turned out to be a Silver Surfer! What a great addition to my roster would that be, it was an amazing feeling of joy!

    However, this feeling turned out to be treacherous.

    I am a passionate PvP player, although I am just at the beginning of the 2* -> 3* - transition. Therefore I have quite some 2*-characters at level 94 and some 3*-characters at the threshold of around Level 100. Anyway, I was getting along quite to my satisfaction in PvP, it was challenging, sometimes a bit too hard, but given my state of being still some sort of a beginner, I could not complain.
    That was until the Silver Surfer arrived at my roster. Since then, PvP is unplayable with teams of an average level of at least 166 turning up. I can tell you, it is not something you wish to see, having your Silver Surfer blown away by a Level 220 Cyclops. Needless to say that the rest of my team is far from being a match to these opponents.

    So, the only solution that comes to my mind is selling that Silver Surfer that turned out to me more a burden than a benefit. It's a hard decision, but unless you can provide a more convenient solution, it's the only thing I can do ...

    What do you guys think about that? I'd be glad to hear your opinion ...

    It's early, but I'm starting to see the same thing. I have a soft-capped 94 roster so that I can bit more diverse with my team combinations in PVE. My matchmaking progression in PVP usually starts with seed teams and traverses thru undercovered 2* teams, then level 94 rosters, then undercovered 3* teams, then finally level 166 rosters when I reach around 700 points.

    However, immediately after recruiting SS, my PVP matchmaking has gone directly from seed teams to briefly undercovered 3* teams around level 120 then jumps right into level 166 rosters. Even if I were to level my roster up, I have a strong feeling that having SS would skew my matches with level 166 rosters immediately then shortly thereafter with undercovered 4* rosters and higher (assuming I could even get past that first plateau). Prior to recruiting SS, I was going to level my roster to 120 so that I could start to compete better in PVP, but doing so now might actually put me at a greater disadvantage since it would throw me into a higher matchmaking pool where I can't compete with my undercovered 4*'s.

    If this trend holds up, PVP has essentially become unplayable for me past 200 -- or less -- points. This is basically throwing the pool of players with SS who are not firmly in 4* land back to the days of the hard PVP wall. I'm hoping that D3 can come up with a solution; otherwise, the longevity of the game for me is at-risk, as I won't be able to compete in PVP, and the only avenue where I can play the game is to grind harder in PVE...where I'm already grinding hard and getting burnt-out.

    Selling SS might be the only recourse to get back to normalcy, but that hardly makes sense either, as it forces us to stunt our own roster progression. The starting level of 5*'s is wrecking the PVP balance for players like me.
  • ShionSinX wrote:
    They are unmatchable, but one turn after one or two of those could be destroyed by the one next to it.
    Would they yield black hole AP?

    Yes, and 5 black hole AP = 100k damage to all opponents icon_eek.gif
  • SteirerbuaSteirerbua Posts: 26 Just Dropped In
    I observed the same effect with my account ...

    I could not believe my eyes when my first Legendary Token turned out to be a Silver Surfer! What a great addition to my roster would that be, it was an amazing feeling of joy!

    However, this feeling turned out to be treacherous.

    I am a passionate PvP player, although I am just at the beginning of the 2* -> 3* - transition. Therefore I have quite some 2*-characters at level 94 and some 3*-characters at the threshold of around Level 100. Anyway, I was getting along quite to my satisfaction in PvP, it was challenging, sometimes a bit too hard, but given my state of being still some sort of a beginner, I could not complain.
    That was until the Silver Surfer arrived at my roster. Since then, PvP is unplayable with teams of an average level of at least 166 turning up. I can tell you, it is not something you wish to see, having your Silver Surfer blown away by a Level 220 Cyclops. Needless to say that the rest of my team is far from being a match to these opponents.

    So, the only solution that comes to my mind is selling that Silver Surfer that turned out to me more a burden than a benefit. It's a hard decision, but unless you can provide a more convenient solution, it's the only thing I can do ...

    What do you guys think about that? I'd be glad to hear your opinion ...[/quote]

    It's early, but I'm starting to see the same thing. I have a soft-capped 94 roster so that I can bit more diverse with my team combinations in PVE. My matchmaking progression in PVP usually starts with seed teams and traverses thru undercovered 2* teams, then level 94 rosters, then undercovered 3* teams, then finally level 166 rosters when I reach around 700 points.

    However, immediately after recruiting SS, my PVP matchmaking has gone directly from seed teams to briefly undercovered 3* teams around level 120 then jumps right into level 166 rosters. Even if I were to level my roster up, I have a strong feeling that having SS would skew my matches with level 166 rosters immediately then shortly thereafter with undercovered 4* rosters and higher (assuming I could even get past that first plateau). Prior to recruiting SS, I was going to level my roster to 120 so that I could start to compete better in PVP, but doing so now might actually put me at a greater disadvantage since it would throw me into a higher matchmaking pool where I can't compete with my undercovered 4*'s.

    If this trend holds up, PVP has essentially become unplayable for me past 200 -- or less -- points. This is basically throwing the pool of players with SS who are not firmly in 4* land back to the days of the hard PVP wall. I'm hoping that D3 can come up with a solution; otherwise, the longevity of the game for me is at-risk, as I won't be able to compete in PVP, and the only avenue where I can play the game is to grind harder in PVE...where I'm already grinding hard and getting burnt-out.

    Selling SS might be the only recourse to get back to normalcy, but that hardly makes sense either, as it forces us to stunt our own roster progression. The starting level of 5*'s is wrecking the PVP balance for players like me.[/quote]




    I absolutely agree - the only way I can think of to get back to a normal PvP-live is to sell the Surfer. This is absurd as it can be, it does not make any sense and it is the exact opposite of progress ... but obivously in my current situation this character is too big for me to handle, this is the only conclusion I can draw.

    So, I plan to use the Surfer as a support for my troops in the current PvE event and then sell him ... unless D3 can provide a reasonable solution until then ...

    Concluding with a big *sigh*
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Steirerbua wrote:
    So, the only solution that comes to my mind is selling that Silver Surfer that turned out to me more a burden than a benefit. It's a hard decision, but unless you can provide a more convenient solution, it's the only thing I can do ...
    Or, you could just be patient and keep building your roster via PvE and DDQ
  • generalTsobotgeneralTsobot Posts: 65 Match Maker
    simonsez wrote:
    Steirerbua wrote:
    So, the only solution that comes to my mind is selling that Silver Surfer that turned out to me more a burden than a benefit. It's a hard decision, but unless you can provide a more convenient solution, it's the only thing I can do ...
    Or, you could just be patient and keep building your roster via PvE and DDQ

    This is akin to saying that we should be happy with not playing PVP in any meaningful way at all, which I don't think is fair. Speaking only for myself, I've been very patiently building my roster through all phases of the game. Suddenly, by recruiting SS, PVP has entered "hard mode" with no other controllable changes on my part, and leveling higher will just make it even harder. I'm supposed to be OK with that?

    This makes a long 4* transition even longer and more difficult compared to literally yesterday when the only change has been recruiting SS, whom I have yet to even use in any phase of the game.
  • Buret0Buret0 Posts: 1,591
    I've discovered that when fighting a high level Silver Surfer, you can't go wrong with Thing. Surfer's basic match damage will trigger a 5 cover Thing yellow power and that will allow you to survive the match damage. Then you just need to concentrate on AP denial and damage. Hood was useful for the AP denial and his low health meant that Thing would protect him from any big hits.

    After beating King's Silver Surfer three times in a row in Shield sim, he has changed up his team to make it even stronger... I see he's running around with Thing in his group now too. In that case, you are going to need to bring someone who can deal with his protect tiles, since once surfer gets below half damage, you need to finish him of before he can get enough blue to start power healing.
  • scotteescottee Posts: 1,594 Chairperson of the Boards
    I know they wanted to appease the concerns of players in that focus on PVE, but they never should have made Surfer available to rosters that weren't ready for him.

    This is another example of people crying for something, not understanding what's going to actually happen if they get it.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    scottee wrote:
    I know they wanted to appease the concerns of players in that focus on PVE, but they never should have made Surfer available to rosters that weren't ready for him.

    This is another example of people crying for something, not understanding what's going to actually happen if they get it.

    While I agree in theory, tokens don't expire.

    If you don't want a 5* on your roster for fear of scaling/MMR changes, you simply don't open the tokens until you're ready. It's not like the 95% of a 4* is any more help if your situation is such that Surfer blows up your game.

    Of course, that works better in theory too, since I think Surfer is a pretty popular character, so those drawn to Marvel would want him. But that's the solution.
  • SteirerbuaSteirerbua Posts: 26 Just Dropped In
    scottee wrote:
    I know they wanted to appease the concerns of players in that focus on PVE, but they never should have made Surfer available to rosters that weren't ready for him.

    This is another example of people crying for something, not understanding what's going to actually happen if they get it.


    I absolutely agree that my roster is not ready to carry such a heavy burden and that I am far from ready for the Silver Surfer.
    However, I was looking forward to getting a decent 4*-addition to my team. As far as I can remember there was no way I could tell the token would turn out as a Surfer in advance. So, keeping a token until ready can't be part of the solution ...
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is akin to saying that we should be happy with not playing PVP in any meaningful way at all
    Given all the complaint threads from people saying that everyone with a 4* roster is blocking transitioners from acquiring placement covers in PvP, I'm hearing it's not that meaningful as it is.
  • dr tinykittylovedr tinykittylove Posts: 1,459 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    This is akin to saying that we should be happy with not playing PVP in any meaningful way at all
    Given all the complaint threads from people saying that everyone with a 4* roster is blocking transitioners from acquiring placement covers in PvP, I'm hearing it's not that meaningful as it is.

    Even without placement covers, transitioners all the way down to 1* range can pick up a lot of progressions in pvp, It doesn't make sense to tell them to quit pvp - it will make the transition even harder and it seems surfer will kill pve also.

    And it's one thing to tell a fully covered low-capped roster to just level up their roster if they want to play, but we have a lot of people in early transition who can't do that even if they wanted to.

    5* starting levels are really too high. Either that or they need to work out the effect of outliers in a roster for calculating scaling and mmr.

    (I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who's had first hand experience of drastic mmr changes from rostering a new upper tier character - I had level 15 1*s and acquired a lvl 40 scarlet witch on my alt account.)

    Edit: and plus, the vast majority of non-forum-haunting players would have no idea why they are not supposed to open their awesome tokens and roster their shiny new surfer? It just doesn't make sense.
  • I don't think "we" should have to make any adjustments for unlocking a single cover of a 5*.

    Honestly, there are two ways this 'should' go.

    1. Your 'value' *since MMR is dead*, should be based around some kind of statistical average that would treat having one or two covers for SS as an outlier, and thus not factor it into where you are

    or

    2. 5* should not impact your 'value' at all. Part of the whole point with them is their superiority. They aren't meant to be "a progressive step", at least based on what I've read. So when I do PvE, if I have a max Surfer, so what, I don't want to see 2* Daken at lvl 300 slashing me for like 6k dmg on his blue. I shouldn't have to deal with goons as strong or 'stronger' than OML.

    But you shouldn't be forced to not use a token, because one cover skews your ability to play the game. You shouldn't be forced to sell a cover because it makes what you fight against jump 100+ levels.

    But hey, I hate scaling in general. I'd rather the content just be progressive, go until your roster can't go anymore, no 2* roster should be able to APPROACH the scores I get in PvP or PvE with a 3* roster transitioning to 4*.
    - Unreall
  • Ouroboros9999Ouroboros9999 Posts: 139 Tile Toppler
    I have to agree that my experience with scaling effects of a single surfer is the same as has been mentioned. It has made PvP matches made with SO much more difficult opponents, usually a combo of 166 3*s and one or two well covered 4's. Luckily I'm further along into a full 3 star transition, waiting now for ISO to level characters out. It is tempting to drop that single SS cover, but I know I'd instantly regret it.
  • PolaresPolares Posts: 2,631 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think "we" should have to make any adjustments for unlocking a single cover of a 5*.

    Honestly, there are two ways this 'should' go.

    1. Your 'value' *since MMR is dead*, should be based around some kind of statistical average that would treat having one or two covers for SS as an outlier, and thus not factor it into where you are

    or

    2. 5* should not impact your 'value' at all. Part of the whole point with them is their superiority. They aren't meant to be "a progressive step", at least based on what I've read. So when I do PvE, if I have a max Surfer, so what, I don't want to see 2* Daken at lvl 300 slashing me for like 6k dmg on his blue. I shouldn't have to deal with goons as strong or 'stronger' than OML.

    But you shouldn't be forced to not use a token, because one cover skews your ability to play the game. You shouldn't be forced to sell a cover because it makes what you fight against jump 100+ levels.

    But hey, I hate scaling in general. I'd rather the content just be progressive, go until your roster can't go anymore, no 2* roster should be able to APPROACH the scores I get in PvP or PvE with a 3* roster transitioning to 4*.
    - Unreall

    But what you propose in points 1 and 2 makes no sense. Imagine somebody that has a 2 roster (lvl 94) and has been extremely lucky and has pulled 2 or 3 SS covers with legendaries won in pve progression. You propose that SS should be an outlier or not considered at all for scaling purposes, but then this guy would be able to build a team for pvp with ss and another 2. And then he would destroy all other 2 teams. And it would be the same in pve, and with the extra advantage of doing it extremely fast.

    SS and OML need to be considered for the scaling.

    The solution is to make this covers not expire ever. This way you can have them without adding them to your roster (so you can't use them against other people in your stage), but then you would be able to field them when you got to a 3-4 level.
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