5-Star Rarity & Silver Surfer Announcement! (In-Depth)

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  • Any speculation on who other potential 5 stars might be? Thanos? Secret Wars Doctor Doom? Franklin Richards? Void Sentry? Boomerang?!
  • morph3us
    morph3us Posts: 859 Critical Contributor
    jffdougan wrote:
    El Satanno wrote:
    Yeah, you can buy a 40-pack and get ONE. Or clear out a taco vault. That's for a single one-in-twenty chance at an epic. I sincerely hope nobody's that nuts.

    What are you, joking? I guarantee you see a maxed Surfer within a month of his release. And I'm not talking about a sandbox account. Just you watch.

    I'm trying to think of suitable stakes to wager you for that.

    Is anyone who's cleverer at maths than me able to figure out what ungodly amount of money you'd need to spend on 40 packs in order to have a reasonable statistical chance of getting a maxed Surfer? My mind boggles.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,578 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just a thought but since we are not getting a pVe of epic proportions to welcome the sentinel of the spaceways, how about another forum contest? Off the top of my head, Guess how many days/weeks it takes for the first fully covered Silver Surfer to emerge and Guess the remaining 2 5* characters. I'm guessing the latter might be more viable since people may be tempted to data mine to find out the identities of the other 2 5*s. icon_razz.gif

    On a more personal note, definitely stoked to have Silver Surfer in game and as the first 5*! Looking forward to what other goodies you have in store!!


    (○´・д・)ノ
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    morph3us wrote:

    Is anyone who's cleverer at maths than me able to figure out what ungodly amount of money you'd need to spend on 40 packs in order to have a reasonable statistical chance of getting a maxed Surfer? My mind boggles.

    I do believe you may want to ask Mawtful who has been kind enough to figure out the cost for best/worst case scenario pulls:
    Mawtful wrote:
    IceIX wrote:
    Mawtful wrote:
    Probably first week.
    Even though it's a 5% chance, any 5* cover they pull will be for Surfer, so this is the one time that there's less RNG to fight against.
    True, but when you hit 5 in any given color, any newly pulled cover is "wasted" for purposes of full covering. And you need the correct ones for your build. So that's an additional unknown number you'd have to pull.

    Let's look at the best-worst case scenario;
    best: you get the covers for your ideal build and none wasted
    worst: you get them at exactly 5% draw rate (1 per 20 tokens)

    20 tokens opened for each of 13 covers = 260 tokens
    260 tokens at 16,000 HP per token = 4160000 HP
    4160000 HP in 20,000 HP bundles = 208 Stark Salaries = ~$20,800

    (FWIW, best-best case of getting the right 13 covers from 13 tokens means you only need to buy 11 Stark Salaries. Get your prayers into RNGsus now!)

    Yeah, I still think there'll be one covered in the first week. By comparison, it's only ~$1,400 to cover max a 4* during their release event. I think most of the Super Whales won't go in for it - however it does provide a nice bonus when they do buy token packs to cover a character before release. But there's bound to be someone out there for whom $20k is a small price to pay to be the first person with Silver Surfer.
    Original post here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32578&start=100#p405983
  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    Long term and high ranking players have lots of stuff to be excited for, everyone in the middle?
    A ton less to be excited for.

    Competition to reach the 1300 pack are going to be bonkers, effecting other parts of pvp, the points will reach higher then ever in pvp to hit those 10ks for the season legendary.

    The hugest issue you guys really need to consider is smoothing the other paths.

    Making heroics more common was the easiest and simplest solution. A super obvious one actually. They aren't common and still pop 2 stars out.

    I'll entirely ignore the DPD 4 star requiring 4 stars, because I'm having a super negative experience with 3 stars requiring 3 stars and 4 star essentials in pve events. But I guess your experimenting with a new style of play? hopefully people have that singular character leveled or their screwed for that cycle.

    Congrats to you guys bored in 4 star land, looks like you got what you wanted at least.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 5,566 Chairperson of the Boards
    If I can gloat briefly: this change was pretty clearly necessary months ago. And I am mocking everyone who scoffed at me for saying so in July (viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=31601&hilit=observations+5%2A).

    More on topic:

    5* seems to be an indicate an interesting change in design philosophy for demiurge:

    (1) no more direct buy covers prevents whales from maxing out characters on day 1 and thereby lengthen their interest in the game. Clearly demiurge has recognized that it's impossible to serve the majority of the player community and simultaneously serve the super-whales who max a new 4* every 2 weeks. (though there will undoubtedly still be some uber-whales who buy 40 packs endlessly to max surfer in the first week after release. Seems like truly ridiculous waste of thousands of dollars to me, but there is probably someone who will try it)

    (2) 5* characters are intended to be usable almost immediately, rather than requiring 8-10 covers (and usually 5 in at least 1 key power). Clearly Demiurge has recognized that forcing players to carry 8-15 completely useless characters with just 1 or 2 covers for endless months is a big turn off for players. having usable characters during transition should make the transition process more fun, but it may make the end-game feel even more stale for some.

    (3) 4*s are going to remain fairly difficult to build. No news about adding 4*s as placement rewards for pvp or pve (other than the 1/1-2 slot). So a maximum of 1 cover for any given 4* will remain the best possible outcome for any event. the ddq legendaries will help, as will the pve progs and 1300 tokens. But I don't know if that will even keep pace with the current 4* release rate (unless the release rate slows down).

    (4) I will be curious to see what the "natural" build rate for 5*s will be (i.e. the rate without buying 40 packs). the super hardcore players will get 1-2 legendaries from pve every seven days, 3 from PVP 1300 rewards, and 1-2 from ddq. that's 5-7 legendary tokens per week. Meaning about 5 legendary covers every 4 months. there will be 39 5* covers (Assuming they all need 13 like everyone else) by the end of 2015. So it seems like even the very hardcore f2p players will take more than a year to cover any 5* (assuming no more are introduced). It's good that people will presumably get some use out of undercovered 5*s, but this seems like a pretty clear attempt to incentivize 40-pack purchases (since they are the only other way to get legendary tokens). That's disheartening as the 40 pack prices are, frankly, grotesque and the high-end of the freemium business model always seems rather predatory.

    (5) this announcement was all about the high-end (the 3*-->4* transitioners). I expect that there will have to be subsequent changes to speed up the 3* transition. And the game should probably also do something to trim back the 3* roster requirements for new players (maybe take the weakest 10 3*s out of the essential rotation, a la bagman). It's a pretty big ask of new players to require that they slowly build all 40 3*s when there are still two tiers above them. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to wade through 40 2*s back when 3* was main field for end-game play.
  • Vhailorx wrote:
    If I can gloat briefly: this change was pretty clearly necessary months ago. And I am mocking everyone who scoffed at me for saying so in July (viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=31601&hilit=observations+5%2A).

    More on topic:

    5* seems to be an indicate an interesting change in design philosophy for demiurge:

    (1) no more direct buy covers prevents whales from maxing out characters on day 1 and thereby lengthen their interest in the game. Clearly demiurge has recognized that it's impossible to serve the majority of the player community and simultaneously serve the super-whales who max a new 4* every 2 weeks. (though there will undoubtedly still be some uber-whales who buy 40 packs endlessly to max surfer in the first week after release. Seems like truly ridiculous waste of thousands of dollars to me, but there is probably someone who will try it)

    (2) 5* characters are intended to be usable almost immediately, rather than requiring 8-10 covers (and usually 5 in at least 1 key power). Clearly Demiurge has recognized that forcing players to carry 8-15 completely useless characters with just 1 or 2 covers for endless months is a big turn off for players. having usable characters during transition should make the transition process more fun, but it may make the end-game feel even more stale for some.

    (3) 4*s are going to remain fairly difficult to build. No news about adding 4*s as placement rewards for pvp or pve (other than the 1/1-2 slot). So a maximum of 1 cover for any given 4* will remain the best possible outcome for any event. the ddq legendaries will help, as will the pve progs and 1300 tokens. But I don't know if that will even keep pace with the current 4* release rate (unless the release rate slows down).

    (4) I will be curious to see what the "natural" build rate for 5*s will be (i.e. the rate without buying 40 packs). the super hardcore players will get 1-2 legendaries from pve every seven days, 3 from PVP 1300 rewards, and 1-2 from ddq. that's 5-7 legendary tokens per week. Meaning about 5 legendary covers every 4 months. there will be 39 5* covers (Assuming they all need 13 like everyone else) by the end of 2015. So it seems like even the very hardcore f2p players will take more than a year to cover any 5* (assuming no more are introduced). It's good that people will presumably get some use out of undercovered 5*s, but this seems like a pretty clear attempt to incentivize 40-pack purchases (since they are the only other way to get legendary tokens). That's disheartening as the 40 pack prices are, frankly, grotesque and the high-end of the freemium business model always seems rather predatory.

    (5) this announcement was all about the high-end (the 3*-->4* transitioners). I expect that there will have to be subsequent changes to speed up the 3* transition. And the game should probably also do something to trim back the 3* roster requirements for new players (maybe take the weakest 10 3*s out of the essential rotation, a la bagman). It's a pretty big ask of new players to require that they slowly build all 40 3*s when there are still two tiers above them. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to wade through 40 2*s back when 3* was main field for end-game play.
    these boards can be quite harsh....i remember someone saying 5* would be impossible and would break the game icon_cool.gif
  • Chrono_Tata
    Chrono_Tata Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    The new rewards seem mostly good except for the 4-star cover at 1300 being replaced with a token. Would prefer if 1300 were a cover and 1000 be a token instead. It's not gonna feel nice when you climb all the way to 1300 and then open your token to an Invisible Woman.

    I'm sure this was deliberate though.
  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:

    (2) 5* characters are intended to be usable almost immediately, rather than requiring 8-10 covers (and usually 5 in at least 1 key power). Clearly Demiurge has recognized that forcing players to carry 8-15 completely useless characters with just 1 or 2 covers for endless months is a big turn off for players. having usable characters during transition should make the transition process more fun, but it may make the end-game feel even more stale for some.

    I hate to say it but no, they realized that that was the part of the player base was spending money.

    15 under covered useless characters?

    how about the 40 from the tier before? i know you mentioned it later in your post but one seems more pressing then the other if they intend to have silver surfer bring some players in, or any of the other 5 stars. They still haven't quite decided if they are going to dump resources into pumping the 4 star progression or paving 3 to 4 smoother IMO.

    Even weirder still is just jumping from 2 star.png+ straight to 4 star.png+

    The replacing of a 4 star.png with a token in the vault is entirely ridiculous considering 1 less 250 iso or 2 star wouldn't have impacted any other odds in a fishy way out of the entire 500 in there, especially since this was supposed to be the big 'benefit the endgame player' part of the update.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 5,566 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am very curious to try the 1v1 mode.

    I have been saying for a while that I thought Elektra might actually excel in a solo mode. I am curious to see if that will turn out to be right.

    1v1 games should make denying the enemy ap a little bit easier. i could see boosting match damage and then just denying the enemy their 3 primary colors as a potential strategy for 1/0/0 70 4*s. It would take forever, and could fail completely if the ai gets a cascade or favorable board, but in theory it should be doable with some luck.
  • dr tinykittylove
    dr tinykittylove Posts: 1,459 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's not exactly bad news, I guess, but I'm feeling oddly stressed and demoralised. Right now, with my roster I get to look at the 1.3k progression and go, "nope, already have that maxed, don't care!" and basically take the pvp off. With the token at 1.3k, to keep progresssing at the same pace as before, I will have to go for it every time, and half the time the result will be "nope, already have this covered, why am I doing this?"

    Also count me as one of those concerned about scaling mmr. I've done 1-4* transition under the current mmr conditions, albeit on two separate accounts. Having one character with jacked up levels makes enough of a difference I'm afraid to get lucky.
  • Maximum Power Creep Ensign. Engage.
  • I'm very happy with the positive additions to the game recently and I'm super excited about playing MPQ for a long time!

    At least one of the these initial 5-stars better be a villain though or I'll be very disappointed! Thanos? Galactus? Make it happen!
  • Kevin61
    Kevin61 Posts: 256 Mover and Shaker
    IceIX wrote:
    Buret0 wrote:
    Any plans to address the billion ISO shortfall we already have with the current 4*s?
    Concepts and ideas, yes. Nothing ready to go right this second. It's most definitely on our radar though.

    My first suggestion would be to eliminate the measly 20 ISO one gets for clearing a node that had already been cleared at least once. I like the idea that others have suggested that with each pass through a node, players get the rewards shown rather than taking a chance on only getting 20.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,857 Site Admin
    Silver Surfer stats posted here.

    Also, a couple notes before you go haring off. Or after you've been haring off and your eyes are still saucer shaped and sized:

    Damage and health scales higher as you pass normal buffed 4* bounds. You may have noticed this already with 395s if you face them regularly. It's not linear.

    Players will not be facing off against 450 Silver Surfers very soon. By the time that's any kind of regularity, 4*s will be buffed to be closer to a 5*s max power. We don't want to do 4* buffs quite so soon though since 5*s aren't really a "thing" yet. All that overbuffing them would do now would be to further blast 3*s and underdeveloped 4* rosters into dust. That's fun for the tippy top that are there, but for the *vast* majority of the player base, that's bad.

    Match damage is as written, those aren't typos. 5*s start around 4* power at 255 and go up from there. Protect tiles are a thing you may want to think about.

    You probably notice that covers aren't as effective as on other rarities. This is by design. 5*s are far more reliant on leveling than they are on covers. Covers will still give extra power, but they won't be doubling or tripling damage/healing from 4->5 covers.
  • My main concern is the starting level of 255 and the impact upon PVE scaling. Has this been taken into account? I'm mid star.pngstar.pngstar.png transition with most characters at lv94. How much impact would one Silver Surfer cover have on my scaling?

    It would be ideal if you could store the star.pngstar.pngstar.pngstar.pngstar.png covers indefinitely and only add them to your roster when the roster can cope. It seems ridiculous to have to consider selling the cover.
  • Mawtful
    Mawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    IceIX wrote:
    Match damage is as written, those aren't typos. 5*s start around 4* power at 255 and go up from there. Protect tiles are a thing you may want to think about.

    ~60k health and ~520 per tile match damage? For 7 AP, Cosmic Beam deals 8k damage, which effectively negates about half the 3* tier or lower. For 14 AP, you can double tap Cosmic Beam to take care of anyone not called Iron Man (Hulkbuster).

    So, yeah. $20k is not going to be that much of a barrier for the Super Whales to just buy him. A maxed Silver Surfer means you're just not going to get hit in PvP.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Seanossi wrote:
    My main concern is the starting level of 255 and the impact upon PVE scaling. Has this been taken into account? I'm mid star.pngstar.pngstar.png transition with most characters at lv94. How much impact would one Silver Surfer cover have on my scaling?

    It would be ideal if you could store the star.pngstar.pngstar.pngstar.pngstar.png covers indefinitely and only add them to your roster when the roster can cope. It seems ridiculous to have to consider selling the cover.
    In your situation I'd probably just hold off opening the Legendary tokens until you have a higher level roster. It seems (and I am well aware I may be wrong) that you won't have much use for either 4* or 5* covers at this point.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,857 Site Admin
    Mawtful wrote:
    ~60k health and ~520 per tile match damage? For 7 AP, Cosmic Beam deals 8k damage, which effectively negates about half the 3* tier or lower. For 14 AP, you can double tap Cosmic Beam to take care of anyone not called Iron Man (Hulkbuster).
    You don't take a 2* into a fight with 4*s. Why would you intend to take a 3* into a fight with 5*s?
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
    Silver Surfer?

    Next up might be other legends!

    Thanos?
    Doctor Strange maybe?
    616 Juggernaut?
    Phoenix Force?
    Dormammu?
    Adarm Warlock?
    Super Skrull?
    A slightly better Sentry?

    Possibilities are endless!
  • GurlBYE
    GurlBYE Posts: 1,218 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2015
    It may be a better idea to either lower 5 star.png power a bit, or raise 3 along with 4.

    3 stars still make up 50% of the games roster. Not a huge leap, but a little something.

    People would do 3 vs 5 for story if 5 is featured in the future ( like how I used 2's against 4 stars during deadpool pve and in DDQ when Shethor is on final round of last node), or for pvp when a handful eventually break in and boosted 3 stars are still better then an underleveled 4 star.