Pvp points

TxMoose

blinktag wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

So what you're saying is that you want a free handout or to be able to attack shielded players?

Actually, being able to queue shielded players would be great. Easier progression, extra points available in the slice, more competitive top end. Benefits all around.

Simply modify the shielding rules so that shielding prevents defensive gains as well as losses, to prevent the "backout" workaround (and while they're at it, restore some of the higher defensive win bonus). Having shields prevent *all* point changes would actually make more sense than having them let defensive wins through.

to me that would just kill hopping. if you've climbed above your weight and shielded, there is no time then that is safe to hop. that will just segregate the player base by roster strength and the strongest will be at the top and the guys who currently get the most out of their roster (I know some have reached 1K with 125s) would just be out of luck because they would be constantly queued and hit.

blinktag

TxMoose wrote:

blinktag wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

So what you're saying is that you want a free handout or to be able to attack shielded players?

Actually, being able to queue shielded players would be great. Easier progression, extra points available in the slice, more competitive top end. Benefits all around.

Simply modify the shielding rules so that shielding prevents defensive gains as well as losses, to prevent the "backout" workaround (and while they're at it, restore some of the higher defensive win bonus). Having shields prevent *all* point changes would actually make more sense than having them let defensive wins through.

to me that would just kill hopping. if you've climbed above your weight and shielded, there is no time then that is safe to hop. that will just segregate the player base by roster strength and the strongest will be at the top and the guys who currently get the most out of their roster (I know some have reached 1K with 125s) would just be out of luck because they would be constantly queued and hit.

I know, right? How awful would it be that PvP would be stratified based on roster strength? /s

The point of shields is to sustain points above the natural float point. That wouldn't change under this proposal.

Among other benefits, this solution would spread the pain and make 5 losses during a single match less likely, as there are more targets. Hops could be longer.

JamieMadrox

TxMoose wrote:

blinktag wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

So what you're saying is that you want a free handout or to be able to attack shielded players?

Actually, being able to queue shielded players would be great. Easier progression, extra points available in the slice, more competitive top end. Benefits all around.

Simply modify the shielding rules so that shielding prevents defensive gains as well as losses, to prevent the "backout" workaround (and while they're at it, restore some of the higher defensive win bonus). Having shields prevent *all* point changes would actually make more sense than having them let defensive wins through.

to me that would just kill hopping. if you've climbed above your weight and shielded, there is no time then that is safe to hop. that will just segregate the player base by roster strength and the strongest will be at the top and the guys who currently get the most out of their roster (I know some have reached 1K with 125s) would just be out of luck because they would be constantly queued and hit.

I actually thought about being able to Q shielded players too and then realized the same as TxMoose. It would mean that you're never really "safe" because there would never be a point where people couldn't hit you. Right now if you shield, you're pretty safe from being hit after a few hourws because most people that had you Qd have hit you.

nwman

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I actually thought about being able to Q shielded players too and then realized the same as TxMoose. It would mean that you're never really "safe" because there would never be a point where people couldn't hit you. Right now if you shield, you're pretty safe from being hit after a few hourws because most people that had you Qd have hit you.

Unless you had a 5 minute window when you drop shields that you still couldn't lose points.

Unknown

aesthetocyst wrote:

And, just like the tips you might get from your top 10 bracket, often they never show, no matter how much you skip.

Information from sources beyond your bracket is qualitatively no different than what you can see in your bracket.

I ignored your other post when you said the same thing but this is misleading to other users.

You definitely gain an advantage when you communicate in terms of finding good targets. You may not have an "I Win" button when you use such methods, but you do find better targets far more often than a player that is just using random skips, which in the end, does result in an "I Win" situation.

That's great that you don't need to communicate to queue points up to 1500, but this is variable based on which bracket you join. Sometimes I get a ton of targets up to 1600, sometimes I get no target up to 1100, still this is an issue for those that are affected, just because you aren't affected doesn't make it moot.

As a player that uses absolutely no communication, I rely heavily on viewing my own leaderboard to see if the top 5 is unshielded (excluding myself), I can ALWAYS queue them - just have to force a refresh sometimes if they don't show up. If everyone is shielded, I rely on random skips. You can avoid this by communicating. You're right, the alliances communicating with one another is not against the rules - since they can use the in-game chat for that, but we all know this is not how it is used.

If you still continue to find no targets - I suggest you check that they are in the same slice as you are, in addition to forcing a server refresh. You should ALWAYS be able to queue them in about 5-10 skips depending on the pool.

Unknown

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I actually thought about being able to Q shielded players too and then realized the same as TxMoose. It would mean that you're never really "safe" because there would never be a point where people couldn't hit you. Right now if you shield, you're pretty safe from being hit after a few hourws because most people that had you Qd have hit you.

Hey Jamie, you are safe when you are shielded, when that's gone, you shouldn't be safe. But really... this is PvP or "Versus", but the devs agree to call it PvP as well so let's just call it PvP.

In PvP, you should NEVER be safe, you should always expect someone to attack you, that's the whole point of the game mode. Don't you think?

In World of Warcraft, when you are on a PvP server, you are always available for other players to attack you (unless you are in a city - we can look at it like being shielded), if players don't like that, then they play on a PvE server.

Omega Red

sagapo wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

And, just like the tips you might get from your top 10 bracket, often they never show, no matter how much you skip.

Information from sources beyond your bracket is qualitatively no different than what you can see in your bracket.

I ignored your other post when you said the same thing but this is misleading to other users.

You definitely gain an advantage when you communicate in terms of finding good targets. You may not have an "I Win" button when you use such methods, but you do find better targets far more often than a player that is just using random skips, which in the end, does result in an "I Win" situation.

That's great that you don't need to communicate to queue points up to 1500, but this is variable based on which bracket you join. Sometimes I get a ton of targets up to 1600, sometimes I get no target up to 1100, still this is an issue for those that are affected, just because you aren't affected doesn't make it moot.

As a player that uses absolutely no communication, I rely heavily on viewing my own leaderboard to see if the top 5 is unshielded (excluding myself), I can ALWAYS queue them - just have to force a refresh sometimes if they don't show up. If everyone is shielded, I rely on random skips. You can avoid this by communicating. You're right, the alliances communicating with one another is not against the rules - since they can use the in-game chat for that, but we all know this is not how it is used.

If you still continue to find no targets - I suggest you check that they are in the same slice as you are, in addition to forcing a server refresh. You should ALWAYS be able to queue them in about 5-10 skips depending on the pool.

Have you ever used off-game communication? How can you know that you gain an advantage if you haven't? Seems to me you keep overestimating the value of such communication based on simple assumptions and speculation.

I have never used off-game communication. I wouldn't know whether it provides that big an advantage or not but I tend to believe it doesn't since I've been able to hit my goals without it. I'm talking about hitting 1300 progression or landing a top-5 finish.

There is no way you can avoid random skips. Whether you know who is available for big points and how you know this is irrelevant, you still have to press the skip button and you have no idea of how many times you'll have to keep doing it until that target shows up. Only difference is that line players know who they are going to run into while players like you and me have no idea who will be that big target. If the guy is worth 60+ points I'm going to hit him and I won't care whether he announced his availabitly on line or not.

And there's always somebody worth big points so using line for me would actually be a distraction. Why bother with checking line to find targets when I can simply play the game?!

Now, I can understand how line favours team work by coordinating players but, that's the whole point of having an alliance! If you want to be a lone wolf that's fine and your prerrogative, I myself am one. But why demonize a tool that helps team work when team work is part of the game and the game rewards those who play as a team?

It's like a lone racer looking to ban radio communication in F1 because racing teams use it to coordinate efforts.

Unknown

Omega Red wrote:

Have you ever used off-game communication? How can you know that you gain an advantage if you haven't? Seems to me you keep overestimating the value of such communication based on simple assumptions and speculation.

And there's always somebody worth big points so using line for me would actually be a distraction. Why bother with checking line to find targets when I can simply play the game?!

Now, I can understand how line favours team work by coordinating players but, that's the whole point of having an alliance! If you want to be a lone wolf that's fine and your prerrogative, I myself am one. But why demonize a tool that helps team work when team work is part of the game and the game rewards those who play as a team?

Hi, sorry I wasn't clear. I don't use communication on a regular basis, but I have in the past, but not LINE, it was some RL friends, we were testing the whole shield hopping when it was new and that's how I came to the conclusion of it providing a benefit - mainly to get points.

Please stop saying that you don't need it to get points, many people keep saying this, and it really depends on the bracket you are in, which also determines when you have "no" targets left and gain less than 10 points a game. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it DOES happen. The higher you climb, you will notice this happening, at this point if you want to keep climbing, you pretty much need to communicate with the other top 5 players to gain points off of them.

I understand that communication is the whole point of the alliance, and I am fine with that.

Can we please drop the whole LINE/Communication argument? Hate to get into that again, it gets no where.

The problem is the current point system, not the communication. As the OP stated, you sometimes cannot get a target worth more than 4 points. This should be fixed.

I would really like to see more possible solutions. I know Ice does read these threads.

Omega Red

sagapo wrote:

Can we please drop the whole LINE/Communication argument? Hate to get into that again, it gets no where.

You are the one who keeps bringing it up!

sagapo wrote:

As the OP stated, you sometimes cannot get a target worth more than 4 points. This should be fixed.

If you are at the very top, yes you can't but why should you?! Imagine a whale who just got top progression reward, is bracket leader and still finds 60+ point targets. What would happen? Who could compete for placement against that? It would also render the progression rewards trivial as the top players would inflate their scores to insane levels.

The climb at the very top should be hard like it is now, with very huge risk and very low reward per match. Points in PVP are not supposed to be given away, they are earned.

Der_Lex

The funny thing is that the people scoring the really high 2000+ points in pvp are the players who only communicate within their own alliance families. It's kind of irrelevant if they're using LINE, Facebook chat or whatever medium for that. They score high because they put a lot of time in good internal communication (and choose the best possible medium for that, since in-game chat is awful), and invest in a lot of shields.

Alliances are part of the game and I don't see them going away. And it's only logical that the best organized/most dedicated alliances will have the players with the highest scores in the current system. As much as anyone might feel that it should be 'one player versus one player', that has not been the reality of the game for a long time, and I doubt it ever will be again, unless some way to do actual head to head pvp is introduced.

Allowing people to queue up shielded users would, in my opinion, only increase the frustration factor of the game. It's already stressy enough as it is to get two or three matches in before you get hit when you have a high score, as soon as that shield drops, people can and will find you faster than you'd like. The game is already pretty hardcore for a 'casual' match-3 game, it doesn't need to become more cutthroat.

Getting rid of shards is a big no if it means getting rid of variable end times. As a European player who's been playing since the beginning, I've had my fill of 5 am PvE end grinds or pvp final hops, thank you very much. Again, this would harm more users than it would help.

I think it's pretty much inevitable under the current system that whoever is ahead of the pack runs out of decent opponents to play against at some point. I did a really early sim climb this season and ran into that issue above 1900 for a while. Nothing you can do but shield and bide your time (or just bide your time in shield sim, not wasting shields on that until the final day). I don't see how this can be expected to change aside from a drastic overhaul of the system and, like with alliances, I don't see that happening.

Unknown

Omega Red wrote:

You are the one who keeps bringing it up!

I only brought it up to help a fellow player bypass an issue since we all know that it works. I discourage him to use such methods, just stating a fact.


Would really like a dev to chime in on where they are at with this.

acescracked

sagapo wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

You are the one who keeps bringing it up!

I only brought it up to help a fellow player bypass an issue since we all know that it works. I discourage him to use such methods, just stating a fact.


Would really like a dev to chime in on where they are at with this.

So lets look at one specific situation and let me get your opinion sagpro.

In Hollow Point Kiss (gsbw PvP) an alliance all went to a traditionally dry slice. They are the only major alliance in there so can only hop off each other. As an experiment they used solely in game chat and scored high.

Is ingame chat now an exploit as well and the devs should now decide to remove ingame chat?

Nellobee

acescracked wrote:

sagapo wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

You are the one who keeps bringing it up!

I only brought it up to help a fellow player bypass an issue since we all know that it works. I discourage him to use such methods, just stating a fact.


Would really like a dev to chime in on where they are at with this.

So lets look at one specific situation and let me get your opinion sagpro.

In Hollow Point Kiss (gsbw PvP) an alliance, let's refer to them as V, all went to S3 a traditionally dry slice. They are the only major alliance in there so can only hop off each other. As an experiment they used solely in game chat and scored 3k+ each.

Is ingame chat now an exploit as well and the devs should now decide to remove ingame chat?

Exactly. The problem isn't LINE, and even if it was, there is nothing the devs can do about out-of-band communication. The problem is shield-hopping.

puppychow

Splarne wrote:

Disallow skips.

Charge HP for skips instead.

Up the charge for shields.

Dunno

If you charge HP for a shield, that will cause the f2p crowd to disengage from pvp. Less players in pvp = less targets for the remaining folks.

Try again please.

Unknown

puppychow wrote:

Splarne wrote:

Disallow skips.

Charge HP for skips instead.

Up the charge for shields.

Dunno

If you charge HP for a shield, that will cause the f2p crowd to disengage from pvp. Less players in pvp = less targets for the remaining folks.

Try again please.

Nah, nothing but head meets wall suggestions to this point all around. The only factor that seems to remain is the complaining.

Salgy

Nellobee wrote:

The problem isn't LINE... The problem is shield-hopping.

Care to expand on this?

You do realize that without shields and shield hopping scores will drop, and progression rewards will be unobtainable, right?!?

lokiagentofhotness

sagapo wrote:

Omega Red wrote:

Have you ever used off-game communication? How can you know that you gain an advantage if you haven't? Seems to me you keep overestimating the value of such communication based on simple assumptions and speculation.

And there's always somebody worth big points so using line for me would actually be a distraction. Why bother with checking line to find targets when I can simply play the game?!

Now, I can understand how line favours team work by coordinating players but, that's the whole point of having an alliance! If you want to be a lone wolf that's fine and your prerrogative, I myself am one. But why demonize a tool that helps team work when team work is part of the game and the game rewards those who play as a team?

Hi, sorry I wasn't clear. I don't use communication on a regular basis, but I have in the past, but not LINE, it was some RL friends, we were testing the whole shield hopping when it was new and that's how I came to the conclusion of it providing a benefit - mainly to get points.

Please stop saying that you don't need it to get points, many people keep saying this, and it really depends on the bracket you are in, which also determines when you have "no" targets left and gain less than 10 points a game. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it DOES happen. The higher you climb, you will notice this happening, at this point if you want to keep climbing, you pretty much need to communicate with the other top 5 players to gain points off of them.

I understand that communication is the whole point of the alliance, and I am fine with that.

Can we please drop the whole LINE/Communication argument? Hate to get into that again, it gets no where.

The problem is the current point system, not the communication. As the OP stated, you sometimes cannot get a target worth more than 4 points. This should be fixed.

I would really like to see more possible solutions. I know Ice does read these threads.

if you're the slice leader in points, nothing you can do will make a 50 point queue magically show up. if you're sitting shielded at 1100 and can't find anyone in your bracket or out in the open at higher points than you, it's either they are all shielded OR there's simply no-one there higher than you.

my suggestion is hit those damned 4 pointers and allow others to bounce off your shield so they too can gain points - don't rely on others to generate points for you.

and no-one is obligated anywhere to provide anyone with a 50 point queue even if they have it.

Unknown

Then again, increasing the minimum to 20 or 25 fixes a lot of that.

Not the best reward to climb off? Yeah, but either you are the highest score around or other high scores are shielded.

Unknown

acescracked wrote:

Splarne wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

Any information gleaned from LINE is just as useful as information gleaned from your bracket.

However, what is not pointed out alot of that communication and coordination is done with players in the same alliance and they could use in game chat and not line just as well. Line is used just cause it's less cumbersome.

I would like to interject the paragraph that I've left in your post. I actually play MPQ from both my phone & tablet. I've discovered that some of the in-game chat is only on one device. So when I switch to the other device, some of the in-game chat history is gone. This is why my Alliance does use LINE.